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Re Mr. Hill: according to demographics, the latter has to change. I’m a bit skeptical myself, though.
I think that Will is a Mrs.
Perhaps boys need to start being allowed to do jobs again in the summer, to gain a much-needed sense of responsibility, enabling them to handle the achrayus of marriage at a younger age.
Re Jothar: absolutely!
And I’ll have to start reading Will Hill’s posts a bit differently, hadn’t realized.
ames, you got it exactly. A clever girl should know how much of her cleverness is safe to reveal.
bump
OP:”There was a case recently where a girl insisted on cutting a date short because she didnt want the boy to miss Mincha-Maariv(yes, she liked him and it was their second date and she is still not married, lol)”
It might have been me. Once when I was on a date, I told the guy I had to daven Mincha. I didn’t mean that the date had to be cut short. All I meant was that I was going to take 5 minutes to go to the corner to daven.
He didn’t know that girls are chayiv in Mincha, so he assumed that I was reminding him to daven Mincha, and that that meant I wanted the date cut short. When he finally figured out that I was talking about myself, he was shocked that I daven Mincha. He seemed to think I was a feminist or something.
On second thought, I didn’t like him, and I think it was a first date, so I guess it wasn’t me.
Hashem is reading – curious as to why you bumped this thread?
Lilmod Ulelamaid: I was recently having a similiar discussion with someone.. So I was intrigued when I saw this thread. so I bumped it to see if any one has anything else to add.
curious as to why you always ask me why I bump specific threads?:) does it always have to be for a reason?? lol
“curious as to why you always ask me why I bump specific threads?:) does it always have to be for a reason??”
Something like this?? Yes, it does!!!
I’m wondering what your thoughts are on this topic – I’m assuming you must have some, if you bumped this.
my only thought is that I hate that their are so many rules in dating. like you cant say this, you need to say this. don’t say this until the third date forsure don’t say this until the sixth date. like hello! if your trying to see if your gonna marry this each other then shouldn’t you both just be yourselves??
obviously don’t say anything stupid, but why all the rules?!
+ 1,000!
Once you reach a certain age, you get to decide which rules you want to keep and which ones you don’t.
Lilmod Ulelamaid: meaning after you’ve dated a while the rules don’t count? right, but most people don’t want to reach “the age of not caring”.
True.
I agree that people should be themselves. I was very disturbed by the OP, personally. If a girl uses certain terms, it’s going to be assumed that she is trying to impress the boy??!! That sounds so ridiculous and judgmental to me. Maybe those words are part of her vocabulary. And now if either she or someone similar read this thread, they will feel like they have to be careful to davka NOT use those words on a date.
And honestly, I find it hard to believe that she davka used those words to impress the boy. Girls don’t usually try to sound more intellectual than they are in order to impress boys. The problem is usually the opposite – that girls are sometimes made to feel like they have to pretend to be less intellectual than they are.
Obviously people have to be realistic and normal and socially appropriate, and sometimes this can mean not overly-stressing certain aspects of themselves. L’maaseh we all do that all the time even though we are not necessarily aware of it. That is what basic social skills are about – not just saying everything you are thinking, and knowing when it’s appropriate to talk about what.
But at the same time, there is a limit. And if a person normally uses certain terms in their conversation, they shouldn’t feel like they can’t do so on a date because they will sound too intellectual. A girl like that needs a guy who will appreciate an intellectual girl.
And I don’t get what’s wrong with reminding him to daven Mincha. I would think that most guys would appreciate such a reminder, assuming it was given in a nice way. And if he doesn’t, he probably is not worthy of a girl like her.
But then again, I wasn’t there. And maybe the problem with both things (the terminology and the Mincha) was the way they were done.
random side point: if you dont trust him that he davened already or that he’ll daven later than drop the shidduch asap. a marriage is based on trust. so if your already starting up now, then this shidduch is bad news.
Two pointers on relationships:
1. guys don’t want to marry a mashgiach. They don’t want their dates/wives reminding them that it is time for minyan or shiur. Chochmas nashim bonsa baysa- women have to know how to be a positive influence on their husbands in a smart way. Notice, that On ben Peles’s wife did not nag and lecture him on and on about the bad influence of Korach and his gang. Instead she did something to make sure he could not join them.
2. Guys do not want to feel that their wives know more than they do. Which means that a super intellectual girl needs someone who can handle that. Still, I have seen many a smart, learned wife defer to her husband on a point of Torah or halacha even though she for sure knew the answer herself and did not have to ask him. That I think is part of being smart too. It’s not about playing dumb, or changing your nature, but rather giving the husband the respect he deserves as the person who has the chiyuv to learn Torah.
Good points, Winnie. If someone actually knew a topic better than the CEO, would he dare try to overrule the CEO on that topic?
WTP: Excellent post!! So well written!
oh, thanks guys (blushing). Some of that was learned the hard way…
“Some of that was learned the hard way..”
sounds like you might have some interesting stories to share …
doesn’t everyone?
When my parents were dating, my mother was saying how its so annoying when boys talk “Yeshivisha Raid” and my father was like “yeah, i ‘Grada’ don’t use yeshivisha raid!
LOL!
that’s funny, ja 🙂
What is “Yeshivisha Raid”?
JA – lol, literally. I hope I didn’t wake up my mother. But that was FUNNY!
sorry, LF, I couldn’t loq for that one.
They should teach girls yeshivishe raid in beis yaakovs.
They should teach boys English in yeshivos.
My entire post is intended to prove that women are unadvised to learn Torah Shebaal peh, but it is not a strict issur
It is even less than that.
In private it is to be recommended
Read Rabbi JD Bleich
IITIF – +1.
According to most opinions, it is not assur for women to learn Gemara. If anything is assur, it’s for a man to teach her.
And of course, one must always consider his/her reasons for doing anything.
I read through a bit more than half the thread, getting the important points on women learning gemara. It goes back and forth and there are arguments both ways, can someone post the actual text of the Shulchan Aruch or Rav Moshe’s Tshuvah in the original hebrew text?
There are a lot of opinions on the topic, and it also depends on many factors. The biggest problem is when people either assume that it is completely assur and any female who learns Gemara is committing an aveira or when people think it is completely mutar and don’t realize that there are many qualifications (what she’s learning, why she’s learning, where she’s learning, who’s teaching her, who she is, etc.)
I’m not interested in opinions, as much as I am in the actual halacha. I’ve debated through it many times, and haven’t really gotten anywhere on it, because no one I was speaking to knew the hard text any more than I did.
Some poskim (especially Hungarian) hold girls cannot even be taught Rashi in school since that is Torah shebal peh.
Joseph – I think that Satmar hold that girls can’t even learn Chumash inside.
I don’t think that I have ever heard of anyone who says that girls can learn Chumash but not Rashi. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
Joseph: “Good points, Winnie. If someone actually knew a topic better than the CEO, would he dare try to overrule the CEO on that topic?”
Joseph: Let’s say you mistakenly told your wife to do something that was against halacha and she knew the halacha? What would you prefer that she do in that situation?
Also, if you knew beforehand that she knows the halacha better than you do, would you ask her?
She could tell me so I could confirm.
Satmar girls in Beis Rochel learn Chumash inside but not Rashi.
Which Beis Rochel?
All Satmar Beis Rochels worldwide, per the Satmar Rebbe’s psak.
I didn’t know Beis Rochel was a Satmar school – that’s why I asked.
That’s interesting because I had heard that they don’t learn Chumash inside, but maybe my information was incorrect.
“She could tell me so I could confirm”
So if I understand you correctly, it’s okay if she says something as long as she does so respectfully. I had understood WTP’s post differently, but probably that is what she meant as well.
Thank you.
I wasn’t talking about a situation where the husband made a mistake in halacha. In that case, I would suggest that she asks him, are you sure, do you mind looking it up or asking a rav rather than outright telling him he is wrong and that she knows better.
I know someone who teaches Hil. Shabbos her husband asks her questions in Hil Shabbos. I know s/o else who had already learned certain topics in halacha that her husband hadn’t learned yet (he was going to get semicha but hadn’t yet), so when they first got married (until he got semicha), he asked her.
If halacha (or certain areas in halacha) is the wife’s “tchum” & her husband’s is something else, I wouldn’t think that he should have a problem asking him her questions since he knows that’s her area. Just like if she’s a doctor, he shouldn’t mind asking her his medical questions.
But these things are very individual & depend on the individuals As a single girl, I have spent time in many people’s houses, & I see that there are all dif. types of people & ways of doing things.
The imp. thing is for the wife to make sure she is aware of HER husband’s needs & to act accordingly, even if it’s not what she expected.
In my case a chevrusa.
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