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The Prisha says that if a woman teaches to herself anything we see she has ‘gone out’ of the category in which most women are put in, and thus they can be taught Torah, due to the fact that it is now assured that their knowledge won’t be folly.
whoops I messed up in my previous post the Prisha says right afterwards the opposite of what I said. Sorry for the misinformation
I took a poll at a sheva brachot tonight – men want a chavrusa 🙂
…to learn with. And a girl to marry.
I thought the topic was about dating?
If it is a question about marriage, as Joseph seems to think, then the answer is clearly that you cannot have both. The gemara says this explicitly – “Oi charusa, oi misusa”.
LOL Joseph that was cute.
so, it seems we have concluded that a boy is looking to date a girl-YES?
No kiruvwife, a woman.
ok, but in the shidduch lingo I’ve never heard “she’s such a great woman!” or “which seminary did this woman go to?” or “Does this woman have a close relationship with her mentor/Rov” ……but I hear what you’re saying. Bottom line he’s not looking to date a chavrusa.
SJS, I’m with you. Problem is, these wonderful, accomplished young women can only choose from boys. And some people, the ones whose heads are in the sand and chalk the “crisis” up to demographics, actually advocate the boys starting even YOUNGER.
Rabbi Krohn, for whom I have a great deal of respect, has popularized a story about Rav Hirsch, who happily married someone older than he because for what he wanted to accomplish, he couldn’t marry a little girl. Very nice, but…ok, so these boys don’t all have to be Rav Hirsch, they just have to maximize their own potential, but are they even thinking along the lines of Rav Hirsch when it comes to their own personal development.
OK, off my soapbox 😉
tzippi, at what age would we stop being boys? Never. Trust me.
you ppl got it all mixed up!!!
as someone in the dating scene there r four types of girls 1. the one that only wantes to date a long term learner and struggle her whole life for torah 2. a college girl that wants a life of luxery and wants to ONLY marry a professional 3. a girl that wants to marry a learning guy but her parents cant afford so she deciedes to SETTLE and marry a working guy that learns every day and is machshuv torah 4. a spoiled brat that is either rich or since she is pretty hopes to marry rich as is a lazy brat.
so now al u gotta do is see where you stand here and figure what type of girl u want!!!!
Oh, that makes it pretty simple. Thanks for the analysis, chillmaster. No doubting which category you fall into. Please check the prescription on your glasses, I believe I detect myopia.
chillmaster, i think i know you so well i can probably set you up with one of the guys with his flashlight and gemara in the box that contains his head. (or was it a candle??) you interested? they’re a little young, but i’m sure i can find a couple of older ones.
moish01: im a guy!!!!!!
chillmaster, lol!!!! I’m scratching my head trying to figure out what the real difference is between the four categories. I can certainly tell you what the similarity is-they’re all spoiled bratz!!!!!!!
~a~
tzippi, at what age would we stop being boys? Never. Trust me.
I recently read a study that a boy’s brain stops maturing at 25. So, its safe to say that a 25 year old is now a man (or as much man as he is going to get).
uh huh. The point is, what is a man but a large boy?
The problem is that you have a lot of Bnei Torah that are shteiging away Yomim V’Layla in Torah – or are at least steeped in Torah thinking while working for a living – and vain girls that think life is about looking pretty and where you can shop upscale. Hence the shidduch crisis.
ujm:
Agreed 100%. The seminaries should prepare the girls for living the Kollel life, not just giving them the desire to marry a kollel boy. Perhaps if they only served bread & water, costs would go down? 🙂
ujm, if thats really true, why are so many looking for rich fathers-in-law?
ujm;gavra at work–that kind of training for girls must come from the home…It’s rare that a 10 month seminary experience could change around an attitude that was learned over 18 years–not impossible, but rare.
I find in the not so often occasions on my trips to the larger frum communities that there are many girls who sincerely want a ben Torah, who will shteig, and they want to sacrifice for a Torah home. They don’t fit the description of ujm at all, but have a challenging time with shidduchim none the less. Oh, and these girls know that the boy is looking to date a girl NOT a chavrusa.
kiruvwife:
They seem to do a good job of “when you marry a kollel boy”. If not them, start with Beis Yaakov, I’m willing to spread the blame. Also blame the boys yeshivos that teach that having Gelt is a Mayylah.
As per the second point, there are plenty of rich girls who also don’t have shidduchim. In those cases, it may be the issue with the boy, or the small number of boys who are willing to eat breat & water for the sake of learning.
GAW-enlighten me please on this inyan of “having Gelt is a Mayylah”–does that mean the father in law? Does that mean that the girl should have a good paying job? Does that mean that “pas b’melach tochal” is not envogue in this generation l’chatchila? Please let me keep some of my naivete and tell me that not all “Top Yeshivos” will herald a call to only look for a rich girl…….
kiruvwife:
Fine. Keep it. I just don’t know of such a yeshiva. Even if there are a few, they produce too few boys to make up the need.
oy nebach-so what you’re saying is we can change the name of this thread to: is a boy looking to date a girl or a well secured (stocked for 6+years) bank account?
I am so not a fan of cynicism-can’t we all just change the system and demand better from the yeshivos, our bochurim, and the overall sense that money is the answer to being able to pursue a kollel lifestyle at the outset? (and please don’t tell me that koheles says “v’hakesef ya’aneh es ha’ kol…..)
yes i know this topic has been regurgitated in other threads, but we don’t have to continue in the path of “well this is what’s normal and expected”. Normal is an overrated virtue when it comes to this.
chillmaster, wow you sound like you didn’t have the awesomest dating experiences. lemme clarify your post. The 4 types of girls:
1. shtark frum girl looking for long-term learner cuz that’s the only purpose in life
2. spoiled brat looking for long-term learner cuz her parents will only support her if that’s what she marries
3. A girl that values learning but doesn’t want to live like a pauper off government programs so she will want a guy that has a college education and will learn part-time
4. A very frum girl who would only want a long-term learner but her parents are professionals so they only let boys with a college education.
kiruvwife: I will mention the famous mishna in Perkai Avos:
Al Shelosha Devorim Haolam Omed: Kesef ~ Mammon ~ Gelt!
Otherwise the parents have to make the child into a giver & not a taker, against the hashkafa of the yeshivos.
The Aruch HaShulchan says that “Because their minds are ??, and they find in the Torah meaningless matters, because their minds are inadequate (for Torah study, even though they get a reward). But like most poskim, the Aruch HaShulchan rules that one’s daughter can learn Torah Shebichsav.
Maybe that was true when the Aruch HaShulchan stated it, but girls in this day and ageare Yeshivah educated LIKE BOYS from the earliest ages on, and I know a heck of a lot of girls who are WAY more learned in Torah than many boys. I know girls who are top notch in fields of study that in secular terms were always the male dominion for centuries. They, too, are way more educated and intelligent than their male counterparts. Hashem was not the one who made the statement about nashim kalos datan, was He? Women have bina yesaira, and that is as if not more valuable than chochma. One can be a really stupid person, in spite of all of his Torah learning. Making foolish generalized statements about women today, only reinforces that to me. Not all men are learned, not all women can learn Torah in depth. But those who can, do, and those who can’t, won’t.
Kiruvwife, maybe lets think about it this way.
You are the “top learner in XYZ yeshiva.” People are setting you up with the best girls (middos/frumkeit wise). Some of these girls also have money – the money will ensure that you can keep learning for the rest of your life. Maybe its just being practical?
[eh, I’m cynical and don’t think the system should progress like this, but I am not really sure what the answer is]
G.A.W. you said “Also blame the boys yeshivos that teach that having Gelt is a Mayylah.”
One of the main reasons many boys think marrying a rich girl is a mayla is because they want to learn and the only way they wont have to go to work after they get married is if somone supports them, and having a rich father in law simplifies things a bit.
How can you tell boys it is mayla not to go to work right after they get married and not excpect them to only want to date rich girls?
Oh and chillmaster and there are more then 4 types of girls out there, sorry your having such a hard time dating.
000646: Ah, you make sense.
GAW absolutely-I like that approach (the giver approach not the mishna)
yes sjs, I hear the practical end…in that case it is a nisayon….but I do believe b’laiv molay that there are good shtark bochurim that are looking for a girl who will be moser nefesh for Torah, and don’t want to rely on the “money is the answer to my learning” approach.
There is so much fluff and icing in this thought process, which when the essence of real life comes out, the reality of what life should be in the deepest sense of ruchiniyus, it comes down like a heavy load. This comes from a lack of real emesdik thinking, and an aversion to being real.
Oomis, my husband is often impressed with my analytical abilities, especially in discussing parsha or other Shabbos table discussions. I may well have the brains to learn, but I have no desire to. Despite the trend of the education Bais Yaakov provides, most girls are seriously machshiv Torah but don’t have the inclination to learn gemara. We’re just not wired that way. And there’s still so much to learn for those who want to – Tanach with meforshim, sifrei machshava, mastering halacha l’maaseh, etc.
Interesting about boys needing money to learn. Back in the old days, those who became gedolim got shtellers, or went to the sticks pretty quickly. No minimum 5 -7 years for them. And they still lived in poverty.
And BTW, there’s a lot more to it than that the kids need to learn how to live modestly and be resourceful, which might cut the parental support payments somewhat. The l’maaseh is that parents can’t afford ANY of it these days. If they’re not paying full tuition for their younger kids, or close to it, how are they siphoning off significant chunks on a regular basis (we’re not talking about pitching in for a bris, etc., or giving their kids occasional gifts, etc.) to the married kids? System’s broke, seems to me.
Kiruvwife,
What do you suggest for people who want to stay in learning and dont want to rely on the “money is the answer to my learning” approach (unless their wife has a special skill and can get a high paying job i guess).
And G.A.W this is an honest question cuz i cant tell, were u being sarcastic? if yes why does what I said not make sense?
000646: It was not sarcastic. You do make sense.
Thanks! Its kinda hard to tell that type of thing in writing sometimes (at least for me!).
000646–I suggest that we need to teach our children some very important fundamentals.
(sorry, I’m a list person)
1)how to balance a checkbook-meaning be completely responsible when it comes to spending money. Be accountable and don’t spend unnecessarily. Always pay off credit cards fully, and if you can’t then buy less.
2)learn how to live modestly and be proud of it. Feel the essence of what it’s like to live with less and enjoy it.
3)Teach our bochurim how to be smart with in between time to help out with bringing in money-tutoring, learning with others who will pay him etc.
4)Teach our girls (by living it) the true zechus of what it is to be married to a ben torah, and to appreciate the mesiras nefesh, and to demystify the notion that it’s simple and easy. Hard work isn’t bad, it’s just hard.
kiruvwife:
For #3: Know a situation where the boy wants to learn, gets accepted to great yeshiva. Parents refuse to pay, want boy to go to college, but will fill out tuition form. Filled out scholarship form, they make too much. Boy refuses to work/tutor in school, says will take away from hasmada!
What does one say to that 🙁
Also for 1&2: if everyone followed your advice, there would not have been a financial crisis. How can you expect that from Yeshiva boys who never learned math and don’t understand the value of money?
Kiruvwife,
All those suggestions are great, however even living modestly these days costs alot of money (ONLY TUITION for 2 or 3 kids is like months of your average kollel wife’s salary never mind food,electric bills and heat in the winter and other neccesities) and if the husband thinks it is a good idea not to work as soon as he gets married and the wife dosn’t have any special marketable skills (which most girls who havn’t gone to college dont have) the couple will probably need somone to help them out. Having a rich father in law makes finding that somone a whole lot simpler, so it is natrual that it will be considerd a major plus and you cant really blame the guy for seeing it as such.
I think much of this problem can be solved by reinforcing with in our commuinty 2 concepts:
1) Responsibility- Every man has a responsibility to support and take care of his wife. This is HIS chiyuv. Not anyone elses.
You would not expect someone else to daven kriyas shema in the morning for you- because that is your chiyuv. in the same token a man cannot expect someone else to relieve him of his chiyuv to support his wife
How does one prepare for this responsibility?
Simple! Make an integral contribution to society and society will support you.
There are certain yechidim who are contributing to society by making a decision to learn their whole life. Those are people who society will decide to ‘adopt’.
If someone does not think they are making an integral contribution to others in society by learning, then they should waste no time in deciding how and when they DO plan on doing something productive that will benefit others, and by means of such, earn himself a livelihood.
How then do we understand the concept of someone who wants to learn for in kollel for a number of years? this brings us to the second point.
2) Kollel is a luxury.
If someoene IS given the opportunity to learn in kollel- it is certainly not something to give up! Grab it and cherish it! make the most of it- this is one of the biggest luxuries you will ever have in your life. You have been given a chance to step out of olam hazeh and get a small glimpse of olam haba. Take advantage of every moment and utilize it to the best of your ability.
However, realize that although you may have been temporarily relieved from your responsibilities, this is a free gift. This is not something that a parent owes you, not something you may demand. Realize that although your obligations are hidden, they are still very real and exist, all be it in the background for right now.
The missing component here is Bitachon and Emunah in the Bashefer.
GAW-if they don’t learn the proper math and skills to use money wisely in yeshiva then the parents must teach it to them.
In response to the situation you presented about the boy that thinks it will take away from his hasmada, I don’t know if it is wise for one to think that way. He should definitely be consulting his Rebbe. We know full well that the chofetz chaim didn’t think that way……sechel is surely in order here.
000646-Yes, I do understand that there will be those bochurim who will be drawn to a father in law who will help support, and I see the need for that. I know many parents who don’t really have a lot of money but want so badly for their children to be learning in Kollel as long as possible and carefully allocate money to help their children build a beautiful foundation. It’s done in a thought out balanced manner…not for the superfluous and extraneous imagined needs one sees in imbalanced situations.
Syag,
No, Kollel is NOT a luxury, it is a necessity.
However, realize that although you may have been temporarily relieved from your responsibilities, this is a free gift.
Incorrect. His responsibility, and he has NOT been relieved of it, is to learn Torah Hakedosha. He is not the recipient of a “free gift”, rather society is. He is providing society the gift of his Limud Torah.
Re Joseph: who is missing the emunah? The parents of the kids who insist on serious support? The kids, who may never have been introduced to the concept?
What is the l’maaseh of living with this emunah? No support? Nissim geluim? Just curious.
Joseph, if kollel is a necessity, why were there so few kollel guys in Europe? Why did most bachurim go out and get a rabbanus or get a job along with being a moreh tzeddek as soon as they got married? After all, our mesorah is from Europe. Learning Torah is the necessity. Kollel was for the yechidei segula who were willing to live a life of extreme poverty, or who were chashuv enough to earn the support of a gevir. Today’s system, where everyone is expected to learn in kollel, is a chiddush for America. It was a very welcome development to help a Torah community shattered by the Holocaust recover. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that it’s an historical outlier, supported by a lot of excess wealth that has simply vanished over the last 16 months. And let’s not lose sight of the fact that the gemara paskens that for most people, Talmud Torah im derech eretz is better than Toraso umnaso, simply because most people couldn’t survive on Toraso umnaso. I’m not saying to skip kollel. I’m just saying that it’s ludicrous to expect other people to support you comfortably in that lifestyle, especially when money now is extremely tight, unless you’re ready to live a life of very little gashmius, the way kollel was meant to be lived. When I first started married life in kollel, I had tevios on my father-in-law for not helping me out. Then I realized he was right. I had a right to learn in kollel, but I didn’t have a right to demand that he pay for it. I gained a lot from my years in kollel. I recommend it to anyone willing to do it. But be aware that you won’t be living la vida loca anymore. The excess cash is gone.
the l’masseh of living on emunah:
Someone who takes upon himself the ‘ol’ of torah is relieved from the ‘ol’ of derech eretz.
1) a person who accepts the ‘ol’ of torah does not have it easy! This is not someone who wakes up late, strolls into yeshiva to learn for half a day. This is referring to someone accepts upon himself a real responsibility in his limud Hatorah.
2) such a person is relieved from the ‘ol’ of derech eretz, and will be given what Hashem thinks is necessary for him to accomplish his tafkid. It does not say he is given parnassah beravach, it does not say he gets a new car every 2 years and annual getaway vacations. It says that he will be relieved from the burden of derech eretz- which i would assume is referring to earning a basic livlihood
Oomis, my husband is often impressed with my analytical abilities, especially in discussing parsha or other Shabbos table discussions. I may well have the brains to learn, but I have no desire to. Despite the trend of the education Bais Yaakov provides, most girls are seriously machshiv Torah but don’t have the inclination to learn gemara. We’re just not wired that way. And there’s still so much to learn for those who want to – Tanach with meforshim, sifrei machshava, mastering halacha l’maaseh, etc.
Tzippi, we don’t disagree fundamentally. I do believe, however, that the girls who like you, do not feel a desire to elarn Gemarah, have not been exposed to it. I don’t believe it has so much to do with hard-wiring as it does a basic lack of exposure to Talmud study. Most of us females are not offered the opportunity from grade five on, as boys are. I learned Mishneh when I was in 6th grade, and Gemarah (to a limited degree) when I was in 7th, 8th, and 9th grades (Ailu Metziyos, Hamafkid, Hameiniach). I loved it, and I was really sorry that I could not continue through further study in high school. I was very excited when I realized how much of our civil tort law is based one exactly what I had been taught. I would NOT have wanted to learn Gemara on a full-time basis, but more as a shiur, but I think there is value in the learning for any woman who is desirous of doing so. Likewise, there is nothing bad about a woman who does NOT want to do so. I don’t like expressions like “wired” to do or not do something. Everyone is different, and what you feel from having grown up in a BY environment (which totally colors you hashkafa – and nothing wrong with that), might be different from what someone in a different Yeshivah might feel. if you grew up thinking women should be in one type of category, you will probably not easily want to see them in a different category.
Jothar, I made no reference to most of your points in my previous comments.
No, Kollel is NOT a luxury, it is a necessity.
Joseph, LEARNING TORAH is not a luxury. Kollel is a luxury. Please understand the distinction.
To build a bit on what Oomis said – I have a few friends that LOVE learning. They learn everything but really love delving into gemara. They are looking for a true lamdan who can learn with them. For them, learning is NOT tiflus.
I would compare it (on a very imperfect scale) to Calculus – I loved learning Calculus and many of my friends wouldnt touch it with a ten foot pole (many had to take it as a requirement and hated it).
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