Is a Boy Looking to Date a Girl or a Chavrusah?

About all these gemara loshon’s I think it’s laughable!

About missing mincha-maariv, I don’t think I would have the guts, but I would not marry a boy who I know for a fact missed mincha (the date started before the zman and ended after shkia) In fact I dated someone (who I am now married to) who totally lost track of time and did not realize that it was almost mincha time. I hinted at it by saying that sunset is starting and it’s so beautiful. He took the hint and we quickly left. I realized that it was an innocent mistake and I am a realistic person that realizes that people aren’t perfect, but if the date would have dragged on and on, and he obviously did not daven mincha, then yes, I would have to think twice.

What about a girl’s father who calls my husband all the time with painfully detailed questions about the boy’s derech halimud. This girl is a really special girl but is unfortunately not too pretty and a bit overweight. She wants a boy who is very serious about his learning but I don’t think she really cares exactly how he goes about it. She is 24 and really needs a shidduch. I feel really bad for her. She would make a great wife!

nameless:

Sure she didn’t go to Midreshet Lindenbaum? 🙂

And then that same girl doesnt let her husband go out to work…..You must sit in Kollel forever.(dont have to learn- at least sit there so I can tell my friends you’re in Kollel)

Joseph,

please correct me if I am wrong, I learned that a young lady may indeed learn Gemora just not publically. In this context it is private learning…

Please let me know where we do get this from – I have learned that there are opinions saying both. Meaning no learning Gemora at all, and not learning publically…

Can someone clarify?

my wife only impressed me with showing what respect she has for one learning Torah, and thanks to hashem, because of her efforts to support a learning husband, I had the honor of a lot of fruitful years in kolel.

Would she start to show “lumdos”, so that would’ve meant that I have to respect her as a talmud chochom, so I wouldn’t have tie the knot..

Joseph, please post the source I am really struggling here.

I understood the issue with learning Torah She Baal Pe as not being permissible for women in a “public” forum. Not that I totally get that either…

I really want to confirm that there are different shittas with regard to a woman’s learning.

smalltowngirl,

Its whether its public or private. I’Y’H I’ll try to link to the post with many sources later. Its quite extensive and very clear, and is across the spectrum.

jewishfeminist02,

Marriage is not supposed to be equal partners. H-m created women and men differently and there is absolutely nothing you or anyone else can do about it. The only One you can argue with is H-m. It has nothing to do with being heretical or not. It has to do with logic. A man cannot become a woman and vice versa. Yes, a man can cook and clean (my husband does plenty of that) and a woman can learn/work but there are certain things that cannot change no matter what you do!

intellegent,

I thought somebody might say that. Look, men and women are different; I’m not contesting that. But it’s a big leap to make from “different” to “unequal”. Marriage should be an equal partnership. Even if the man and woman have different roles (which, as you said, is not always the case) they are still equally important.

I would like to discuss this from a boys perspective. In response to the girl wanting to know whether her future chassan is just “sitting” in yeshiva: You can allow your father to do that and if he cant, find another male to “farher” him. Any average “sitter” can fool even the most learned girl- even those who learned in these gemarakup seminaries.

To Jewish feminist: Your right men and women have equal roles in a marriage. The role for men is to either provide (yes they help out around the house) or learn, depending on who the man is. The women’s role is basicaly household needs and raising the children (w/ the mans help of course) or working so her husband can learn. Yes women can learn light material but my rosh said the geder is they should not learn as yeshiva bochurim do. REASON: logicaly the reason is b/c man is more logical and focuses better. Women are more emotional thus conflicting with the idea that toras emes can only come without biasm. Ergo women can focus and pay att to everything around them and men can’t (as well). And even for those who say im diff. g’zunt ah heyt. Lo plug. B/c its not why they cant learn rather you see a proof from the fact that are mids work differently are tafkidim are different. With that in mind i would still love to marry someone who enjoys nice light torahdika convos at our shabbos table BH.

definatley a chavrusah

Supposedly, there is an Igros Moshe on this topic, but i don’t know where. Can you please enlighten the oilom?

J Fem,

Besides looking at it from a halachic point of view, the secular world is struggling with the same issue. Women refer to it as the “H BOMB” (Harvard). Meaning that some women are trying to hide the fact that they have a degree from Harvard so as to not turn off their date. There was also a piece about the h bomb on 60 minutes. There is a great book about it by NYT columnist Maureen Dowd called “Are Men Necessary?”

ya know, I am still struggling, I feel like you are genuine in your concern and I do appreciate your kindness. I will ponder…

I struggle because as a baalas teshuva I did not have the education that so many take for granted. I struggle because I hear so many contrasting opinions. I struggle because I thirst for knowledge and so many times when I ask a shaila I am not give the complete answer.

WHEW! now we are way off of topic, my appologies.

look in sotah 20a

Jfeminist,

I am positive I posted this (megilla) last night and it’s not here! 🙁

Maybe I accidentally added it to an other thread…

You want husband and wife to have equal roles. I will tell you that, that should not and will not happen. Men and women are inherently different and will therefore automatically fall into different roles. That is not because they are trained to do that but because they are naturally fit for their roles. Hashem made them each the way they are and no human being can change that even if it bothers you. That is why they will not change roles. Why they should not change roles is because they each have different needs and it would not be fair for a wife to be treated according to the way her husband would like to be treated and vice versa.

This example, although a bit silly, might help you understand what I mean:

Imagine a woman who has two sons, one who is blind and one who is deaf. If she were to treat them equally she would make the one who’s blind learn sign language because the deaf one does and make the deaf one learn braille so he could be like his blind brother. Or maybe she would say that neither should learn any because the other does not learn it. This would be equal but not fair! They each have different needs and need to be treated accordingly. So too a man and woman have different needs and need to be treated accordingly.

I am not pretending to be an expert in this area, but based on my limited knowledge as well as my common sense. This seems very clear to me.

I’m happy I have different Rabbis than many people seem to here – after all, I would find Judaism very suspicious if I wasnt able to learn a large portion of where halacha comes from. How do I know I can trust what the men say? After all, it could be a big conspiracy by men to force women to do something.

(I’m NOT saying I actually believe that, but if I werent able to learn gemara or other torah shebaal peh it would be very suspicious to me)

to:jd sayslol, the last thing a bochur wants to date is a chavrusa

Joseph, your sources are incomplete. You quoted R’ Eliezer’s opinion from Sotah, but left out Ben Azzai’s. Ben Azzai states that a man is required to teach his daughter Torah She’Baal Peh.

The issue is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be. Even the Rambam, who seems to deal harshly with women who learn Torah She’Baal Peh, states that they will receive a reward for their learning (albeit less than a man’s reward.) Where do you ever see someone receive a reward for something that is prohibited? That is completely counter-intuitive, and the only logical answer is that the Rambam did not issue an actual prohibition. In fact, the Perisha suggests that the Rambam was against women being taught Torah She’Baal Peh by their fathers, not women learning it independently. (This is in the majority of cases- the Perisha states that tiflut does not apply for a grown woman who has demonstrated herself to be more grounded than most women. Such a serious-minded woman who deviates from the “rov hanashim” to which Rambam refers may be taught Torah She’Baal Peh even by her father.)

R’ Mayer Twersky concurs, stating that in the case of women who learn Torah She’Baal Peh from their fathers, a problem arises because the Torah is “imposed upon women. Study which is not self-initiated is especially vulnerable to inadvertent distortion and frivolous trivialization.” It is exactly this type of “frivolous trivialization” to which the Rambam objects, and R’ Twersky suggests that self-initiated study does away with the problem. (Also note that the Rambam makes no mention of prohibiting women to be taught by men who are not their fathers.)

This view is also consistent with the Talmud Yerushalmi, which states (Ketuvot 2:10) that one should not teach Torah to a slave, but he is permitted to learn on his own. (Women are often grouped with slaves and minors in halachic matters.) In Succah 2:1, we see that the slave Tavi was even allowed to sit underneath the table in the succah and listen to the Sages discussing Torah. Therefore, women may be present while men learn and can absorb material in this passive way.

The Sefer Ma’ayan Ganim makes an important distinction about the sugya in Sotah:

“What was said in Sotah 20a, ‘anyone who teaches his daughter Torah is as if he has taught her tiflut’, perhaps applied when the father taught her when she was a child…However, women whose hearts prompt them to approach the labor of Hashem through conscious choice of the good- it is incumbent on the scholars of their generation to praise and cherish them, to organize and strengthen them.”

Also, see Nedarim 35b, where the case is given of a man who has sworn not to receive benefit from another. This “other” is forbidden to teach him Torah, as this would constitute benefit, but is permitted to teach Torah to his sons and daughters.

Finally, let’s look at the Rambam’s wording. “Tzivu hachachamim,” he writes- the Sages commanded. Everywhere in the Mishneh Torah where this wording is used, it does not constitute an actual issur v’heter, but connotes a general exhortation of what the Rambam believes to be desirable behavior. Never in the Rambam’s writing does “tzivu hachachamim” precede an actual statement of halacha. (Also note that R’ Eliezer’s wording does not constitute an actual prohibition either!)

Even if you hold by the opinions that do prohibit women from learning Torah She’Baal Peh, the Talmud may not fall into this category. The Rosh rules that it is a positive commandment to write Sifrei Torah as well as Mishnah, Gemara, and books of Rashi commentary. (There is disagreement on whether or not this still applies to Sifrei Torah- but all agree that it applies to the other books.) How can this be so, since it says in Gittin 60b that it is forbidden to transcribe the oral tradition? It must be that when the Talmud was written down, it acquired the status of Torah She’Bichtav and ceased to exist as Torah She’Baal Peh. Therefore, men who teach their daughters Talmud are not teaching them tiflut.

WOW- I am learning more on this website than in Bais hamedrash !!

Actually, joseph, I know the Aruch Hashulchan. The Torah Temimah is from his son , R’boruch Epstein and written in the early 20th century- yours(12th)must be a typo.

I have not seen the sefer Chassidim but the Tur you bring down actually vitiates against you.As far as the menaing of tiflus- i knwo the rashi but other translations are equally valid. (tiflus from the word “toful” unimportant or less important thing)

I do admit that I said- and still say- that the majority of poskim FROWN upon women learning gemoro.

All I have claimed is that there is no real “issur”-prohibition to do this. Otherwise why didn’t the gemoro say “ossur lilmod es bittoi torah”? Neither do the Rambam and the other Poskim use the loshon “ossur’. That was my point all the time. there is a big difference between issur and “eitzah toivah”.

Now to the posting of ‘feminsit02″.

I am kind of amazed at that very interesting posting.If these are her own words and research, I stand in awe.(My doubts about the authorship center mainly about the quote from the Jerushalmi-scarcely the everyday learning of an average baal habayis) Whoever did the research, it is thorough and I actually quoted this Perisha to Joseph in another posting. Whatever the source, it encapsulates the reasons why some Poskim do allow women to learn Torah sheba-al peh.

So- Joseph- you surely will do as you have been taught and some others will hnalde this matter otherwise.

if a girl is trying to impress me she might be desprate but i do not mine it mean she is well round it but she should not be learn gemarh like boys but to now about some stuff is okay

avithedemon: keep up the shtrak learning

rabbiofberlin: You are merely engaging in your own conjecture. Please reference a specific mekor or psak that states a woman may learn Gemora. I fear you have none

jewish02: We pasken with R’ Eliezer. In any event, I cannot discuss these Gemoras with you in depth, as you are a woman. P.S. Which database did you pull these sources from?