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DY
Regardless of which came first the bottom line is the same “codes” found in the Torah by Droznin or anybody else are also found in those works lehavdil.
The codes are readily avilable online. “contesting” them doesnt make them go away.
” either ours is “correct””
So you are willing to posit that our Sefer Torah is more similar to the version handed down at Har Sinai than that of Chazal?
I suppose you can say that (It makes me very uncomfortable). But certainly you can agree this is a “major question” or at the very least a “problem”
“Whether He put it into any others is immaterial.”
Hardly! that undermines the very nature of the codes. If they exist in all variations of the Torah that ever existed and that might oneday exist, then what makes them special.
If chas veshalom I write a sefer torah missing a few vavs here and there and add a few others, and in generations it somehow becomes the most prevelant one (granted very unlikely, but whose to predict how the galus will play out (aside from the codes of course :-)) would it contain codes?
If yes: Then the codes are meaningless if any text similar to the Torah contains them!
If no: What is so special about the version we have that only it contains codes?
You’re grasping at straws. It’s not even remotely a question. If you think (for who knows what reason) that codes appearing in all variations of chaseros and yeseiros in a way which is a mathematical impossibility is meaningless, besides for that being unreasonable, you can still posit that it’s only in this one, which is the one Hashem knew would be here in the computer age.
And again, the proponents I’m referring to deny that the codes work elsewhere, so if some wacko makes up codes that do, who cares? If the codes which Rips and the other people used are mathematically impossible, you’re going to say that’s meaningless?
Dy
I knew you were missing something, here it is:
“If you think (for who knows what reason) that codes appearing in all variations of chaseros and yeseiros in a way which is a mathematical impossibility”
This is wrong. Given enough variations of chaseiros and yeseiros, that “codes” will be found in some of them is a mathematical certainty. Certainly not a “impossibility”.
“you can still posit that it’s only in this one, which is the one Hashem knew would be here in the computer age.”
You really dont find that strange at all? That chazal’s Torah didnt have codes but only ours does?
“And again, the proponents I’m referring to deny that the codes work elsewhere”
I am looking at codes in moby dick as we speak. That the proponets deny what I see with my eyes right now, says a lot about this quackery
“If the codes which Rips and the other people used are mathematically impossible, you’re going to say that’s meaningless? “
It is not impossible. It is a certainty. It is one thing if we decide beforehand what we are looking for say “Barack Obama” but to go on a fishing hunt through 304,805 letters in the Torah after weve decided what we are looking for. B Obama, Barack Obama, B H Obama, Barack hussein Obama, President Obama, President B obama, (dont forget we dont need vowels in hebrew). The probablity of finding something that we can attach meaning to aproaches 1! a certainty!
(Note: this is a second problem with the codes, not related to the “major problem” identified earlier)
Not missing anything.
This is wrong. Given enough variations of chaseiros and yeseiros, that “codes” will be found in some of them is a mathematical certainty. Certainly not a “impossibility”.
True, but we are not given many variations, just the one we have. So your point is wrong.
You really dont find that strange at all? That chazal’s Torah didnt have codes but only ours does?
If you find that strange (I don’t have an opinion) so posit that it’s there as well. Mah nafshach.
I am looking at codes in moby dick as we speak. That the proponets deny what I see with my eyes right now, says a lot about this quackery
Whose codes, whose methodology, which proponents? I’m maskim that Drosnin is a quack.
It is not impossible. It is a certainty. It is one thing if we decide beforehand what we are looking for say “Barack Obama” but to go on a fishing hunt through 304,805 letters in the Torah after weve decided what we are looking for. B Obama, Barack Obama, B H Obama, Barack hussein Obama, President Obama, President B obama, (dont forget we dont need vowels in hebrew). The probablity of finding something that we can attach meaning to aproaches 1! a certainty!
For the third (fourth? fifth?) time, I don’t have an opinion on the actual math. There are apparently experts on either side.
“True, but we are not given many variations, just the one we have. So your point is wrong.”
No there are many variations (as outlined before) plus the potential for more if more chaseiros/yeseiros are introduced. Either they all have codes (which would lessen the uniqueness of the codes) Or only ours, in which case why are we the lucky ones. Mah nafshach the premise is flawed!
Simple question: Say I stick in Some vavs here and there r”l would the new product contain codes? Keep in mind this is no longer min hashamayim this is me making trouble.
Now what if those same vavs were introduced by accident (as has happned) would THIS contain codes?
“If you find that strange (I don’t have an opinion) so posit that it’s there as well. Mah nafshach.”
I find it very hard to believe that you dont have an opinion, you have an opinion are virtually everything. Even if you dont, formulate one. As mentioned previously you have the mah nafshach backwards. Wether all versions of the Torah have codes or only one. The premise falls apart.
(What would carry weight, is if the exact version handed down at Sinai contains these codes. THAT would be interesting, but sadly lkula alma we do not have the exact version from Sinai)
“Whose codes, whose methodology, which proponents? I’m maskim that Drosnin is a quack.”
I’ll bet the Christian coders are quacks too. Only codes that relate to yahadus are from non-quacks.
“For the third (fourth? fifth?) time, I don’t have an opinion on the actual math. There are apparently experts on either side. “
Not quite, in your last post you said the codes were “mathematicaly impossible” see here: “If the codes which Rips and the other people used are mathematically impossible,” I was respnding to this point.
No, the codes were only tried on the version we have, but even if it were tried on a thousand and worked, we would (if the math is humanly impossible) say Hashem put it in all. Also, what you call “by accident”, I call by hashgachah pratis. I believe Hashem has the ability to orchestrate how our sefer Torah appears. Don’t you? It could even be that he arranged for the codes to b’davka be in the version we have at the time the codes would be discovered, as a kiruv tool. This is all conjecture to answer a kashya oif a maaseh.
The Christian coders might be quacks as well. I don’t know or care. I don’t believe the experts Aish quote are, though. Might they be wrong? For the sixth (?) time, I don’t know, and I do not wish to form an opinion about something which requires expertise but I’m not an expert at.
“If”. Please don’t misrepresent my clear statement and position.
DY
That is a lot of conjecture
As Sam once said torah code believers arent interested in truth. At least you can admit that in order to answer my “major question” you have to rely on conjecture on top of conjecture kudos to you. Maybe Hashem did orchestrate it that way, or maybe lehavdil elef alfei havdalos space aliens did After all any conjecture is reasonable do defend codes.
So again to be clear: If I stick in vavs all over the place, If I understand you correctly you believe we will still find codes since that was caused by hashgacha, even if I do it to corrupt the text?
and you dont think this undermines the whole notion of the codes?
As for your last point
You arent being honest you asked a question “”If the codes which Rips and the other people used are mathematically impossible, you’re going to say that’s meaningless? “”
I replied that it is not mathematically impossible
You then said you “dont have an opinion”
so you are asking questions based on something you have no opinion and when I address your direct question you ask why am I adressing that point since you dont have an opinion?
There is no point in continuing this further.
DaasYochid has prevailed in this discussion.
What if the codes in War and Peace are also real?
Jospeh
by not answering questions?
If you say so
Plus the point that DY hasnt satisfactorily addressed is that when dealing with skipping letters there is no “The Torah” since there are variations, even one letter could throw off the whole ELS therby negating the entire code. So which Torah “knew minute details of world history, to our very age” Ours? the yemenite? chazals? He is left with two posibilites either all of them, and is forced to say that Hashem guided all these mistakes to still contain codes (and any upcoming mistakes will contain codes as well) OR only our torah contains codes but not the original Torah given at Sinai.
When you say he preveailed, which of these positions do you accept?
Rebyidd
Not sure what you mean by “real” The codes are there. The question is do they have signficance.
On the Asih website they describe the significance as “But what they do tell us is that the author of the Torah knew minute details of world history, to our very age.”
Which would mean that Tolstoy and Mellvile also “knew minute details of world history, to our very age”
I’ve answered all of them (some multiple times), but you’ll continue to ignore my answers, create more straw men, twist my words and position, and call ME dishonest. So I’m out.
Rebyidd, what do you mean by “real”?
DY
I dont think Ive created any straw men, and i never twisted your words or position
you did not answer this
“So again to be clear: If I stick in vavs all over the place, If I understand you correctly you believe we will still find codes since that was caused by hashgacha, even if I do it to corrupt the text?
and you dont think this undermines the whole notion of the codes?”
I’ll show you were you were dishonest
DY Q : “”If the codes which Rips and the other people used are mathematically impossible, you’re going to say that’s meaningless? “”
Ubiq A: “It is not impossible. It is a certainty….”
DY “… I don’t have an opinion on the actual math.”
THis seems dishonest. I get that you claim not to have an opinion on the math, but I replied to a direct question that YOU asked based on the assumption that the math was right. Well as I pointed out it isint, so I’m not sure how you expect me to respond I’m sorry if I misunderstood but that seems pretty dishonest to me.
Bye
Having significance.
What kind of significance? Do you specifically mean that it is impossible to be random or done intentionally by a human author?
Not intentionally by the human author.
Mathematically possible to be random, or not?
Same as the Torah Codes.
But is that significant enough to rule out everything besides Divine input?
CA
I’ll bite, defend what exactly?
Forgive me, but if anyone is saying that the Torah is missing or had letters added that Hashem did not instruct Moshe Rabeinu to write down, then I think we might have a bigger problem than mathematics. Perhaps I am very naive, but all my life I have had the rock solid belief that the Torah is the exact one we received at Har Sinai.
OOmis
1) The gemara says we are not experts on the exact letters in the Torah (nothing that affects meaning, just “chaseiros veyeseiros” )
2) To that end, the Gemara in several places makes derashas based on “extra” or “missing” vavs that we dont have
3) There are several differences between our sifrei Torah and Yemenite. most famously whether “dakah” has a heh or aleph
4) Dont let it shake your belief none of this has significant effect on any of the Torahs’ meaning so shouldnt affect your day to day living
Oomis, the gemara (.?????? ?) says that the early sages were called sofrim because they counted letters, words and pesukim. The gemara tells us what the half way point in each was calculated at, but it doesn’t match with a different calculation made later. The gemara resolves this by saying that the earlier sages were more proficient in “chaseros viyeseiros” and in the breakup of the pesukim.
It seems Bernie Sanders supports it.
CA
It depends what the alternative is. Attacking IRan isnt a real option, it is a charade. Obama knows it Netanyahu knows it and Rouhani knows it. Allthe talk from all parties regarding “redlines” “all options are on the table” is all a charade that all parties knows is one.
So given that attacking Iran isnt an option.
What alternative plan is there? A plan can only be judged when weighed against alternatives.
I don’t know half of what you all are talking about but this should be big news to you.
The US has enabled Iran to get the bomb, at some point, not news
BUT—-the P5+1 near the end of the agreement in a section “entitled “Nuclear Safety, Safeguards and Security,” which stipulates that the West will train Iran to thwart sabotage against its nuclear facilities.”
So, they are actually teaming up with Iran to thwart Israel’s attempts to hack or otherwise confound their path to the bomb.
It’s not enough to turn a blind eye, instead they want to help them succeed. If you had any doubts about the culpability of this Administration, you should be able to put them aside now.
Obama has committed an act of treason against this country, and in my opinion, should be impeached immediately.
@coffee addict,
It was in an article on Arutz 7.
I would provide the link but it’s against forum rules.
The article was titled,
“West to Teach Iran How to Block Israeli Nuclear Sabotage” by Ari Yashar, posted yesterday, July 17th.
If you go to one of the articles on Iran and then click on Iranian Nuclear Crisis, you’ll see a lot of articles and op-eds, scroll down until you reach the article.
I would urge all concerned parties to write to their Congressmen and just let them know how bad this deal is for Israel, and thus also for the US.
Thanks for your concern
Kol Tov
Oomis, while I too disagree with the Iran deal, I doubt Obama is deserving of being charged with treason. I believe he is terribly misguided, but I do not think he has any malicious intent.
CA
“why do you (in plural) say the alternative is attacking iran?”
I dont! I said attacking is not an alternative. Most of the people I talk to think it is.
As for your options 1&3 are the same. It has been tried as hasnt worked.
#2 is more of the same, there is little reason to think it might be different.
Oops! I guess it was the 15th.
Well, at least I’m better with the Hebrew calendar and know that today is Erev Rosh Chodesh Av. It’s no wonder so many bad things are happening now.
Yes, of course, we can’t rely on other nations or military might.
Yet, sometimes H’ expects us to jump into Yam Suf and show our trust in His hashgacha.
May Am Yisrael wake up and do teshuvah and may our leaders unite for a strong Israel that will be invincible against our many enemies.Amen.
That’s what he’s counting on, the basic generosity and goodness of people.
As far as treason, you’d need a critical media to be able to gather evidence for that charge to work.
For me, the open mike, “I”ll have more flexibility after the elections,” spoken to a Russian official sets off enough alarms.
Maybe it’s not treason, maybe a president can make a decision to discard allies with similar principles and go with the “strong horse”(or ruthless horse) but it shows a departure from most executive leaders in the past. They might not have been particularly pro-Israel but they were not going to discard a democratic nation for a rogue state.
This is a “reset” and we’re being kicked off the “preferred list”.
Granting Israel lots of grants to buy American technology (and test and approve it for them) in no way makes up for creating the situation that precludes that aid in the first place. Sort of like that old Dylan song, “Masters of War.”
Sorry but Eisenhower was right when he warned about the dangers of the “industrial-military complex” and it’s funny to see a so-called “peace” candidate like Obama, fostering so much hatred and war on the nation and the world. But, did you ever think that was his plan? A new world order can sometimes be achieved thru anarchy. (G-d forbid). Is that “terribly misguided” leader’s plan?
@ ubiquitin,
Actually the sanctions are what brought Iran to the bargaining table.
Obama stalled and stalled Congress to get them in place, and they were hard to get in place to discard them for a hope and a prayer is very misplaced.
More sanctions can make the Iranian economy even more insecure and stimulate people to rebel against their tyrannical leadership.
Actually, Daniel Pipes was addressing options (they were for Israel but could apply to international efforts, as well) and his second option was for sabotage against the program, both viruses like Stuxnet and other physical acts of sabotage.
If they wanted to thwart the bomb, they could, unfortunately their greed for trade with iran blinds them, and well Obama, what his plan?
It’s good to have the threat of military attack on the table but to keep them guessing.
tirtza
“Actually the sanctions are what brought Iran to the bargaining table.”
OK so they are at the bargaining table. Now what a plan was formulated (I think a good one – if the Iranians keep their word which I doubt they will). The question is what is the alternative?
“More sanctions can make the Iranian economy even more insecure”
Doubtful, especially if Russia and China dont go along.
“and stimulate people to rebel against their tyrannical leadership.”
That argument has been floated for over 20 years now? When is thi rebellion going to take place? Their was more hope after the “arab spring” It has been 5 years now
Actually, Daniel Pipes was addressing options (they were for Israel but could apply to international efforts, as well) and his second option was for sabotage against the program, both viruses like Stuxnet and other physical acts of sabotage.
– also been tried and havent worked significantly.
“If they wanted to thwart the bomb, they could, unfortunately their greed for trade with iran blinds them, and well Obama, what his plan?”
The plan is readily available online. ID be happy to copy and paste if you cant find it.
“It’s good to have the threat of military attack on the table but to keep them guessing.”
Nobody is guessing All parties know it is a bluff
ubiquitin: American force against Iran is a militarily viable option.
Joseph
It probably is militarily viable, but it is not politically viable. (Regardless of who is in the white house)
With an Obama or Clinton it isn’t politically viable; with a Reagan or Bush it is politically viable.
Joseph?
Bush? You are dreaming he tricked us into a war which got us in this mess in the firstplace. America is sick of war. There is less of a chance of attacking Iran with Bush (any Bush) than anybody else.
Reagen is dead sadly. I’m so sorry to have to tell you. (Unless you meant Ron Reagen? but he is a big liberal so he wont be attacking anyone anytime soon. Michael Reagen prob would attack but he isn’t running).
bottom line is it isnt politcally viable with anyone. Unless Iran attacks first (which is doubtful) the US isnt going to be starting a third war in under 15 years. Especialy when the very reason to go for war was already falsy used. (I know you probably think it wasnt falsely used, but most Americans do so even if you personally would support a third war, there is no question the vast majority of the US would not)
The US knows this Israel knows this and IRan knows this. I dont claim to have any chidushim.
CA
“and it couldve happened during the arab spring but Obama didn’t back them”
He did. Unless you mean militarily? and at any rate. It couldve but didnt so here we are today
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