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if ten years ago i told you the US would let Iran have the bomb you would think i was crazy.
it strengthens my emunah that Hashem has a plan and knows what Hes doing
It strengthens my conviction that President Obama is one of the worst presidents we’ve ever been unfortunate enough to have.
Ive been saying it for more than 10 years. I said it as soon as saddam was overthrown Though you are right people did say I wS crazy. Consider this though the Israelis are “letting” also.
CA,
Why does the fact that politics change strengthen your emunah?
It strengthens my conviction that people get their news from a single biased source and draw their own conclusions on it instead of paying attention to the newspapers and radio.
“Israel’s getting tense
wants one in self defense
‘The Lord’s our shepherd’ says the Psalm,
but just in case, we’re gonna get a bomb.”
🙂
The Wolf
I don’t think this is something to joke about.
What, the possible destruction of our planet? Why on earth not?
Would news of Chamberlain appeasing Hitler before WWII give you more emunah?
This is really not something to joke about.
ubiquitin: The Israeli’s aren’t letting anything. Israel was going to attack, but Obama prevented it by exposing parts of the plan, like where Israel was to refuel and also prohibited Israel from flying over Iraqi territory when the U.S. has control of it.
Before Obama’s first election, someone I know, who is one of the Torah Code researchers told me that they ran McCain and Obama’s names, when McCain was up in the polls.
I don’t remember the exact location in the Torah this came up, but the results led them to believe that Obama will win and that he will be so bad for us, that it will lead to Moshiach.
Well, everything will lead to Mashiach. Not too much of a shocker there 🙂
By which I mean, whether Obama would win or McCain, it would ultimately lead to the same thing- Mashiach’s coming.
Barry
“The Israeli’s aren’t letting anything. Israel was going to attack, but Obama prevented it by exposing parts of the plan, like where Israel was to refuel and also prohibited Israel from flying over Iraqi territory when the U.S. has control of it.”
Was the source for this nonsense the Torah codes too?
Incidently i have a project for You Torah code friend. Could you please ask him to predict who will win the next US election. It can be narrowed down to say 20 names or so, Should take a matter of minutes to run. And if my understanding of the idea behjind the Torah Codes is correct. One and only one name should pop up (They love finding names after the fact which is complete giberish, before the fact would be ssemi-interesting.)
Also “he will be so bad for us, that it will lead to Moshiach.”
did it say how long after?
We never question Hashem. Everything is for the good and there’s no such thing as coincidence.
For everyone information Iran is GOG
can’t tell you when or in how long it will happen but it is going to happen
All depends on how soon we do teshuva
And here I was thinking nevuah was finished. Any of you prophets out there mind telling me what tomorrow’s winning lottery numbers will be?
When Iran gets the A-bomb, the probability that they will use it against UAE is about 90 times greater than the probability that they will use it against Israel.
ubiquitin: You can scoff all you want, but we know that there are many levels to the Torah and everything is contained in it. Torah Codes are nothing new, though now it’s more accessible because of computers.
Do some research before you disparage things.
Torah Code were submitted for mathematical peer review and experts were unable to refute it.
Did those experts confirm it or just not refute it?
My emunah doesn’t come from Torah codes, and I think it’s dangerous to hang your emunah on something which may one day (and possibly already has already been) refuted.
In the other hand, I wouldn’t scoff at it either. We do have some cases where Rishonim have discovered patterns, and we do know that Gematria is a genuine chochmah. There’s no question that Hashem did put information in the Torah in hidden ways, so there’s no reason to think that any discovery made isn’t genuine, even if it doesn’t prove anything. I also think it’s equally, if not more, dangerous for someone’s emunah to scoff at it.
Torah Codes are ridiculous. It’s been proven that the same codes can be used with any sufficiently long work–e.g. the works of Shakespeare and Mark Twain.
Also, the guy who “invented” the Torah Codes was a nutcase and a Kofer.
Yet, the proponents claim it’s been tried on such works and it doesn’t work on them.
I am not a mathematician, and I don’t know who to believe.
DY: Pashtus is the proponents are liars.
And seriously, read the book. It’s too stupid to be real Kefirah. But it’s absolute Kefirah. I don’t know how or why Aish jumped on the concept. But seriously, any Frum person who reads the book will both laugh his head off and realize that there’s no truth to this whatsoever.
Can we please get back on topic… WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!
Sam: Pashtus is the cynics are liars too, so I don’t know where that leaves us. I don’t even know which book you’re talking about. I once heard a presentation by an Aish person (who pashtus isn’t a liar) so my knowledge is limited, and probably dated as well. As I said though, there’s reason to think the concept is true even if it’s not a mathematical proof.
Curiosity, last I checked, Hashem still runs the world.
From Wikipedia, entry The Bible Code (book):
“The Bible Code is a best-selling book by Michael Drosnin, first published in 1997. A sequel, The Bible Code II, was published in 2002 and also reached best-seller status.
Drosnin describes an alleged “Bible code”, in which messages are encoded in the Hebrew bible. The messages are purported to be hidden in the Torah, and can be deciphered by placing the letters of various Torah passages at equal intervals in a text that has been formatted to fit inside a graph.
Drosnin suggests that the Code was written by extraterrestrial life (which he claims also brought the DNA of the human genetic code to Earth). Drosnin elaborates on this theory in The Bible Code II, suggesting that the alien who brought the code left the key to the code in a steel obelisk. Drosnin attempted to find this obelisk, which he believes is buried near the Dead Sea.”
ca,
Hashem still runs the world.
It’s a fact.
CA, that wasn’t the topic curiosity was referring to.
Sam, the presentation I heard was definitely not based on that book. Efshar farkert (sort of).
DY: I mean, the concept has existed in theory for centuries. But this guy’s book (based around Rabin and Rotzeach Asher Yirtzach) is what created the field in modern times.
Bary
I have spent time looking over the literature on “torah codes” and it is utter hogwash
“torah codes” have been found in moby dick and war and peace. My favorite is “codes” that have been found in Drosnin’s book identifying him has the real unabomber. “codes” have been found in the Christian bible as well and some of the “codes” found in the Torah attest to the divinity of osa haish r”l.
Keep in mind the odds of finding an allusion to an event after it occurs is 100%. And the predictions they have made beforehand dont come true. (See examples cited above)
They have been refuted by many mathemetcians
“I don’t know how or why Aish jumped on the concept. “
I think it’s because it gets people’s attention. The way I see it, you have two approached 1) Torat Emet and 2) Torat Chaim.
1) You can’t tell a reform Jew about the truth of Torah by going through all the intellectual rigor of a Gemara. They don’t care, nor will they understand. The codes will open their eyes that there may be some Super Being with great intellect that wrote tht Torah. Once you got their attention, then you can teach them more.
2) Torah Chaim – generally not applicable to most people today. They will need to feel that there is something missing in their lives for them to open their minds that there is a better way of life.
DY: My reading of Curiosity’s jestful comment is in line with ca’s.
Sam, the research done by the people Aish uses predates that book by a lot. Look it up.
Here is part of Aish’s article on it:
To avoid any accusation of tampering, the task of deciding on spellings and constructing the list was delegated to an outside expert, Professor Shlomo Zalman Havlin, head of the Department of Information Studies and Bibliography at Bar Ilan University.
In 1994, the results of their research was published in the prestigious peer-reviewed journal, Statistical Science. Since then, the Codes phenomenon has been reported on all the major television networks, as well as in Time magazine and the Wall Street Journal.
Harold Gans, a cryptologic mathematician with nearly three decades of experience cracking codes for the United States Dept. of Defense, was initially highly skeptical of their results, and conducted an independent experiment to verify the integrity of the data. He was not only able to validate their work, but using their method was able to extend it by pairing the cities of birth and death with the names of the rabbis on their list. Statistical analysis shows that the presence of these names, dates, and cities cannot be reasonably attributed to mere coincidence, the probability of such an occurrence being vanishingly small.
Dr. Robert Haralick, Boeing Professor of Electrical Engineering and an expert in Pattern Recognition at the University of Washington, has also confirmed the statistical significance of the original Great Rabbis experiment by redoing the experiment using an entirely different methodology.
Despite the controversy, there is high-level rabbinic endorsement for codes research. In 1997 a public statement was issued in Jerusalem by the renowned Rabbi Shlomo Fisher endorsing the validity of codes research, vouching for the integrity of the researchers, and encouraging its presentation to lay audiences.
Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach met with the Codes researchers on several occasions, and not only gave his approval to Codes research but also encouraged its use in Jewish outreach efforts.
I’m sure the Codes debate will rage for many years, probably until the Messiah comes. In the meantime, for further research you can read the works of Doron Witztum, the leading codes researcher, whose first book in Hebrew is entitled Meimad HaNosaf (The Extra Dimension).
ubiquitin: I don’t know what you read, maybe the Church’s nonsense that they refused to submit to peer review, but the article that DaasYochid posted is very real.
The information I wrote previously was told to me by one of the people mentioned in the article. I think he’s far more qualified than you to have researched it and confirmed its authenticity. Now that he’s retired, he became a Torah Code researcher himself.
If you believe the Torah is from Hashem, then the whole issue is very plausible. We learn that everything is contained in the Torah, this is just one of the methods of deciphering it.
Bary
I read everything I can find on the subject.
I have two questions:
You said earlier that the fellow predicted “he [Obama] will be so bad for us, that it will lead to Moshiach.”
did it say how long after?
Also can you please rellay a message to this fellow
Could you please ask him to predict who will win the next US election. It can be narrowed down to say 20 names or so, Should take a matter of minutes to run. And if my understanding of the idea behjind the Torah Codes is correct. One and only one name should pop up? Sowho is it gonna be?
Thank you
“If you believe the Torah is from Hashem, then the whole issue is very plausible. We learn that everything is contained in the Torah, this is just one of the methods of deciphering it. “
Granted, except for a major problem: As the Gemara says We arent bekium in chaserus veyeseiros. In other words the exact number of letters in the Torah recieved at Sinai is unknown. This doesnt make much practical difference to our day to day lives. But the premise of the Torah codes invloves exact knowledge of letters and equal spaces between them. What Torah do you use? Ashkenazi? Yemenite? The Gemara’s which has some maleh casers we dont? Rashi’s “Ves kol ahser etzavicha”?
Barry: Of course I believe everything is hidden in the Torah. Everything is in Ha’azinu, according to the Ramban. That doesn’t mean that the Torah Codes people found it.
Ubiqutin, your “major problem” isn’t a problem at all. I’ve heard this tayna before, and it makes no sense to me. If the math works (and again, I only know that there are experts who say it does, but don’t have a personal opinion on it), that question is simply a “kashya oif a maysah”. Perhaps we do have the “right” version, but either way, don’t you think Hashem knew which version we would have?
DY
The math works in moby Dick, the “new testament” war and peace and Drozin’s own book.
So let me see if I understand you correctly. The text of our Torah is slightly different than Chazal’s. Did their Torah contain codes or only ours? If both what about Rashis? what about the Leningrad codex?
Assuming all contain codes at The ribono shel olam planted codes in all variants of text over our galus. This is certainly possible but it certainly undermines the excitment of the codes when every version contains them. Dont you agree?
And if only our version contains them, does that mean we have a more authoritative version than chazal?
The math works in moby Dick, the “new testament” war and peace and Drozin’s own book.
That claim is contested. Again, my information is from Aish, abmnd predates the book you refer to. Does some wacko writing a book discredit legitimate research? If so, maybe I’ll write a wacko book with bad math refuting the codes, and that’ll concmvince you to believe in them.
So let me see if I understand you correctly. The text of our Torah is slightly different than Chazal’s. Did their Torah contain codes or only ours? If both what about Rashis? what about the Leningrad codex?
Assuming all contain codes at The ribono shel olam planted codes in all variants of text over our galus. This is certainly possible but it certainly undermines the excitment of the codes when every version contains them. Dont you agree?
And if only our version contains them, does that mean we have a more authoritative version than chazal?
I answered that. I’m not sure which part you didn’t understand. As I said, either ours is “correct”, or Hashem out the codes into ours. Whether He put it into any others is immaterial.
To WolfishMusings: Your age is showing.
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