Ir Miklat and the Wizard of Oz

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  • August 3, 2011 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #598405
    Sender Av
    Member

    Was it the real inspiration for movie? Girl accidentally kills and then needs to flee to a city to escape the sibling of the accidental murder victim. Of course she kills her too.

    I like how one movie reviewer from the 1930s put it. Young girl comes to town, kills. Teams up with 3 others and gos off to kill again.

    And please people, lets not start drawing connections between this movie and people interested in Toeivah marriages. Other people have seen the movie as well.

    August 3, 2011 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1066916
    Peacemaker
    Member

    What does this have to do with the Wizard of Oz?

    August 3, 2011 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1066917
    whats_in_a_name
    Member

    “Girl accidentally kills and then needs to flee to a city to escape the sibling of the accidental murder victim.”

    That’s the connection.

    August 3, 2011 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1066918
    mustangrider
    Member

    someone refresh my memory – did Dorothy accidentaly kill someone before she came to Oz? i dont remember that part…

    August 3, 2011 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1066919
    Peacemaker
    Member

    The Evil Witch of the East is an accidental murder victim?!

    ROTFL!!

    August 3, 2011 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1066920
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    mustangrider-

    The house she was in landed on someone and killed them.

    August 3, 2011 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1066921
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Of course, it should be pointed out that Dorothy didn’t really kill anyone. Her case is a genuine ones and, were she Jewish and in a time/place where all the laws were applicable, she would NOT have to go to an Ir Miklat.

    Nonetheless, it’s an interesting connection between the two topics.

    And, for the record, the inspiration for the movie was the book by L. Frank Baum. Perhaps you should ask if the book was inspired by the concept of an Ir Miklat.

    The Wolf

    August 3, 2011 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1066922
    mikehall12382
    Member

    I dont see any connection

    August 3, 2011 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1066923
    TheGoq
    Participant

    So is the Wizard really the Kohein Gadol?

    August 3, 2011 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1066924
    YW Moderator-80
    Member

    it was an oneis

    dorothy was putar from golus

    August 3, 2011 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1066925
    Sender Av
    Member

    Wolf, the reason I did not ask if it was inspiration for the book was due to some plot changes from the book to the movie. In the book, the witch was not after Dorothy or the shoes until the Wizard sent them looking for her. There was no vengeance in it in the book.

    Goq, I was thinking along those lines. A bad kohein gadol though, one from the 2nd Beis Hamikdash who bought his position.

    August 3, 2011 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1066926
    Sender Av
    Member

    Why is she patur.Dorothy should have been more careful, nailed the house down better.

    August 3, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1066927
    Doodle-Man™
    Member

    the tin man scarecrow and lion are bais din’

    August 3, 2011 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1066928
    YW Moderator-80
    Member

    she was also putar re murdering the green witch, because she was a rodeif

    August 3, 2011 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1066929
    Ctrl Alt Del
    Participant

    Is the family member that goes after the accidental rotzeach considered a rodeif?

    August 3, 2011 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1066930
    YW Moderator-80
    Member

    youre right

    assuming a woman can be a goel hadam

    besides she is certainly puter from being an intentional murderer because she was aiming for the scarecrow, and water normally cant kill anyways.

    August 3, 2011 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1066931
    Doodle-Man™
    Member

    heres what we got

    dorothy:murderer

    wicked witch of the east:murdered

    wicked witch of the west: sibling

    wizard:cohen gadol

    lion scarecrow and tin man:bais din

    Oz:ir miklat

    August 3, 2011 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1066932
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    According to this wonderful comparison, why was Dorothy allowed to leave Oz? The Kohen Gadol hadn’t died.

    August 3, 2011 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1066933
    TheGoq
    Participant

    What kind of Korban do you make with flying monkeys?

    August 3, 2011 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1066934
    YW Moderator-80
    Member

    she wasnt *allowed* to leave

    she left using magic

    besides we have to answer the following question:

    must an inadvertant murderer stay in an A’M? or is it just that if they leave they are subject to misa by the goel?

    besides as soon as the wiz was carried away in a balloon, never to be seen again, the sgan K’G became the NEW K’G until a permanent one could be appointed

    August 3, 2011 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1066935
    Peacemaker
    Member

    The Wizard left Oz.

    Also, Dorothy did her killing in Oz.

    Two important factors.

    August 3, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1066936
    Sender Av
    Member

    Oz is not the ir Miklat, the Emerald City is.

    August 3, 2011 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1066937
    oomis
    Participant

    OK, clearly we have nothing better to discuss during the Nine Days. Dorothy had nothing to do with the death of the WWOTE and at the VERY most, she was no more than a shogeges in the death of the WWOTW (but there were no more siblings to be goeil hadam, so she didn’t have to run anywhere after that). The CYCLONE which lifted up her house (act of G-d), caused the death of the first witch, nothing she could have done to prevent it. The second witch melted because she herself set fire to the Scarecrow, and Dorothy was trying to save him by throwing water at the fire, and accidentally hit the witch as well, who melted by the water. Clear now?

    August 3, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1066938
    Doodle-Man™
    Member

    the flying monkeys were just to make it more fun

    August 3, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1066939
    Peacemaker
    Member

    So does the Beis Din rule Dorothy must be beheaded for murder?

    All Ayes and Nays now please.

    August 3, 2011 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1066940
    TheGoq
    Participant

    So the wwotw must have died during the nine days since she wasn’t showering.

    August 3, 2011 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1066941
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The CYCLONE which lifted up her house (act of G-d)

    Actually, if you saw the play “Wicked…”

    (spoiler space here)

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    … you’d know that the cyclone that caused the house to fall on the TTWOTE was NOT an act of God. 🙂

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    (end spoiler space)

    The Wolf

    August 3, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1066942
    Doodle-Man™
    Member

    The Goq it wasnt the nine days it was a musical

    August 4, 2011 12:32 am at 12:32 am #1066943
    oomis
    Participant

    Actually, if you saw the play “Wicked…”

    Wolf, I did, and I forgot. I LOVED that show. Haunting music and lyrics. And a great prequel to the Wizard of Oz.

    August 4, 2011 8:04 am at 8:04 am #1066944
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Wolf, can you fill us in on what caused the cyclone for those of us who haven’t seen (and don’t plan to see) Wicked

    August 4, 2011 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #1066945
    Sender Av
    Member

    42- I saw it before I stopped seeing shows and movies etc. It was planned by the wizards “2nd hand woman” in order to kill the wwoe and trap the wwow when she would come to pay her respects to her sister. I spoiled it to save people from wasting their time to go see it.

    January 4, 2012 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1066946
    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    Sender Av: Humorous OP! These similarities have never occcured to me, but you for sure have gotten a smile out of me! Yes, great memories of the shvill hatzahov movie. And the acting and singing is amazing… “we’ve got to verify it legally to see if she is morally, ethically, spiritually, physically, positively, absolutely, undeniably and reliably dead…”

    According to this wonderful comparison, why was Dorothy allowed to leave Oz? The Kohen Gadol hadn’t died.

    Actually, after Toto’s curtain unveiling of him, the concept of the wizard was definitely dead, though by then the sibling of the wicked witch of the east was also dead so no more goel.

    Oz is not the ir Miklat, the Emerald City is

    So you think Dorothy was safe in the Emerald City do you? Which edition did you see? Besides trying to kill Dorothy there, the wicked witch of the west even attempted to perform chalitza on her…

    January 4, 2012 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1066947
    Sam2
    Participant

    As someone who loved L. Frank Baum’s entire 14-part Oz series as a kid, I was greatly upset by the plot of Wicked. They completely destroyed his story.

    January 4, 2012 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1066948
    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    You seriously love L. Frank Baum? He was a garbage story teller. He got the story all wrong. For example Dorothy’s slippers were ruby not silver. Then he has the monkeys trying to take her home? Come on, everybody knows that’s not what happened. Frank should have watched the movie properly before writing the book.

    Ok, ok I’m winding you up.

    January 4, 2012 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1066949
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Oz series = pink, fluffy, and bland

    Wicked = awesome (disclaimer: didn’t read the novel and intend not to.)

    January 5, 2012 12:45 am at 12:45 am #1066950
    Sam2
    Participant

    I have been told that the novel Wicked contains several very inappropriate scenes. I didn’t check this out firsthand (for obvious reasons), but I just want to let everyone know that before they attempt to read it.

    January 5, 2012 2:24 am at 2:24 am #1066951
    anonomous
    Participant

    who rlly cares

    January 5, 2012 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1066952
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    No, it’s like really inappropriate. I read the first couple of pages and I was like ?!

    November 7, 2014 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1066953
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Patur Aval Assur said:

    According to this wonderful comparison, why was Dorothy allowed to leave Oz? The Kohen Gadol hadn’t died.

    YW Moderator-80 said:

    she wasnt *allowed* to leave

    she left using magic

    besides we have to answer the following question:

    must an inadvertant murderer stay in an A’M? or is it just that if they leave they are subject to misa by the goel?

    So I have to defend my three years ago self:

    Rambam Hilchos Retzicha 7:8:

    ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???????

    November 9, 2014 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1066955
    Randomex
    Member

    PAA:

    Saying that an accidental murderer has an obligation to remain in the city that overrides pikuach nefesh seems ludicrous.

    I think the Rambam must be interpreted as meaning that there are no circumstances under which the goel hadam may not kill the accidental murderer should he find him outside the city, not that the murderer is obligated to remain in the city no matter the circumstance.

    As for defending your earlier self, I offer you a quotation:

    November 9, 2014 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1066957
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Randomex:

    I offer you a quotation:

    Additionally, several of the quotes here are from threads from three years ago when I first joined the coffee room, and I may have said some things in the follies of my youth which I would not say now.

    PAA's not-always-in-context Coffee Room Report Card Comments

    As for your actual point, what you are suggesting does not fit with the words. And the Rambam didn’t make it up; it’a an explicit Mishna (Makkos 11b). That said, you werre mechavein to the Tifferes Yisrael’s kashya:

    ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?”? ?”? ?”? ?”? ?????? ???? ????? ??? [???????? ?”? ?’] ???”? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? [????? ??”? ?’] ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??”? ????? ???? ???? ??? [???????? ?”? ?’] ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?”? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? [??”? ??”?] ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??”? ?’ ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?”? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??”?

    See also my next post.

    November 9, 2014 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1066958
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Ohr Sameach (Hilchos Rotzeach 7:8) says something similar to you (though I reiterate that it doesn’t fit with the wording):

    ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????”? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?”? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????”? ??? ??????? ??????? (???? ?? ?”? ??? ?”?) ????? ???? ???? ??? ?’ (??”?) ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??

    See also my next post.

    November 9, 2014 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1066959
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The oz series is a children’s book series.

    November 9, 2014 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1066960
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Isser Yehuda Unterman in Shevet M’Yehuda rejects the Ohr Sameach, in part because of the lashon issue, and gives his own pshat. I won’t quote the whole thing since it’s long but here are two excerpts that give the basic gist of it:

    ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ???”? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ????? “???” ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?? “???” ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??????

    and:

    ????? ?? ??? ?? ?? “??? ??? ????? ???'” ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????

    See also my next post.

    November 9, 2014 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1066961
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Seridei Eish addresses this issue in two places. In an article in Hapardes (No. 33 Vol. 4 January 1959) he quotes R’ Simcha Elberg who explained ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????

    and therefore he can’t leave for anything. R’ Elberg actually paskened thatif someone is chaye misa, eis Din has to kill him, even if he can save all of Klal Yisrael. The Seridei Eish expresses his astonishment, and discusses R’ Unterman and the Ohr Sameach and concludes:

    ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????

    ???? ???? ??’ ???? ?????? which doesn’t actually seem all that different from R’ Elberg. You can read the article at

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=12748&st=&pgnum=10&hilite=

    In a teshuva (1:168) the Seridei Eish writes:

    ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ????”? ????? ?”? ? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????”? ??’ ???? ?”? ?”? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???’ ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ?????? ????’ ?”? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????”? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ???”? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ????”? ??????? ????”? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????”? ??? ?????? ?”?????” ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ?”? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??”? ???????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??’ ???? ????? ??’ ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ?? ????? ???’ ???? ?”? ?: ??? ?”? ?? ??? ??? ????? (??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????) ??? ?????? (????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????) ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??”? ??????? ?? ?????? ?????”? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? (????? ??????? ????? ????’ ????? ????? ?? ???’ ????? ???”?)

    L’chal hapachos, I think everyone I quoted would agree that Dorothy could not leave (maybe R’ Unterman could be construed as allowing it).

    November 10, 2014 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1066966
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Aruch Hashulchan in Choshen Mishpat 425:57 writes:

    ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???”? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? [???”?]

    ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ???

    ????? ??? ?”? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??? [?”?] ???

    ?????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? [?”? ?] ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???????? ??

    ??”? ?????

    He first says something along the lines of the Ohr Sameach but then he adds an interesting sevara – it is unlikely that the murderer would be the messenger of salvation since he caused a death, presumably in accordance with the principle of ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ????

    November 10, 2014 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1066967
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Cheshek Shlomo (Makkos 11b) writes:

    ????

    ???? ????????

    ????? ???? ???? ?”? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?”? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?”? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????”? ??”? ???’ ???? ???? ?’ ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ???”? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??

    ?????? ?”?

    According to him Dorothy would be able to leave in order to save someone’s life. (Perhaps one could argue that her Aunt would die from losing Dorothy so returning to Kansas would be saving her life.) However, she would only be allowed a temporary leave. And keep in mind the words that I bolded.

    November 11, 2014 4:51 am at 4:51 am #1066968
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    R’ Moshe Shternbuch in Chachma V’daas also rejects the Ohr Sameach’s pshat:

    ???? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ??”? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? (???? ??:) “??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????” ??? ??? ????”? ?????? ?????(?”? ?”?) ????”? ?? ??? ????”? “????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????” ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??”? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? (???? ???) ???’ ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???

    ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???

    ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??”? ????? ??? ?????? ???? (????”? ?? ?????) [?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???”? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??

    [??? ????? ??????? ??

    ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????”? ??? ??? ????”? “??? ??? ???? ???? ?????” ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???????? ?? ?????? ???? “??? ??? ???? ????? “??? ???

    He then quotes the Seridei Eish and then gives his own pshat:

    ??????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????”? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ???????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?”? ???? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ????

    ???? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ???

    ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? (????? ?? ????? ?????? ????

    ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??’ ????? ???”? ???”? ??’ ??? ?”? ?

    (????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???????

    ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19922&st=&pgnum=347

    It is unlikely that Dorothy would meet his criteria for leaving.

    November 11, 2014 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1066969
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I claim disproportionate retribution (and wall-of-text syndrome)

    in the Ir Miklat thread.

    Does that mean that you agree with my three years ago self?

    December 7, 2014 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #1066970
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shu”t R’ Yitzchak Isaac Helevi Herzog Orach Chaim siman 49:

    ?????? ??????? ?????? ?’ ???? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?’ ???? ?’ ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ????”? ?”? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ???’ ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???’ ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ????? ????? ????

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    ????? ????? (???? ?? ?) ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????”? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?”? ????? ???? ?? ?”? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? [??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????] ???”? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??????

    ???? ????”? ?”? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? (???? ??) ???? ???? ???? ???

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