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What does everyone here think of young couples inviting each other over for Seudas on Shabbos? Personally I think it’s a nice thing as new friendships are made, but someone told me that it’s the wrong thing to do as it causes jealousy (wife, apartment etc).
Just wear blindfolds.
I don’t know about you but the women in our house eat on the porch so i don’t think i’ll have an issue
So it makes it a great way to work on your middos and being sameach b’chelko
You let your women live in your house?
They eat on the porch and live in the backyard
I don’t think it’s a great idea. It could lead to spouses of the opposite sex getting too chummy, and such familiarity is not a good thing. I think it’s less of a problem if there are more couples.
I’m not sure how much a large group changes things, but I agree with flatbusher that there is an issue here, and particularly if it’s done often.
It depends on your situation.
If you and your spouse have an active and fulfilling social network during the week then many Rabbonim dissuade young couples from doing this until the couples have about 2 kids. Until then the focus should be on building the couples own home Shabbos atmosphere.
However, if they have no family around that they can visit and their social lives are difficult to pursue in the week then it’s definitely possible to do it.
That’s what I’ve heard from a number of prominent Rabbonim
Its all relative. I’ve heard that many women like to have a couple for a seuda that they are having boys at so they are not left in an uncomfortable situation… they have someone to talk to while the men talk on the other end of the table. Theres usually not too much fraternizing in this scenario since the bachurim are not usually schmoozing with the wives… So if you’re going to have a meal with another couple- having bachurim is the way to go!
Even though it’s not widewly accepted ,But why can’t the ‘guest wife’ help in the kitchen?
Once again, there is not clear one-size-fits-all answer to this question.
Do recall that a newly married couple do not yet know each other, and often have not yet had the chance to develop a deep and meaningful relationship which, as we know, grows only after time and investment. At such an early and delicate stage (especially during their first year of marriage) it can be particularly tempting to “compare” all sorts of things. It’s a natural thing we do when we see the accomplishments of our friends and peers, and it is not a healthy thing in this arena. They both can be very superficial.
There have been a good number of people hurt through seemingly insignificant, but inappropriate socialising. Whilst for others this kind of socialsing is essential.
It’s so worthwhile to have a competent Rabbi or Rebbetzin who know the individuals involved with whom one can discuss the issues with.
I don’t think couples who have been married longer should either be engaging in this type of socializing and/or joint meals.
I personally think its a very bad idea. “He treats his wife so much better” “She is more attractive” “He makes more money” “She makes more money” “They already have kids and they are so cute” “Why can they afford a 3 bedroom and we cant” etc. Its probably a great way to ruin your shabbos and get into fights unless you are clearly the couple society places a higher value on. Very often, the other couple is at the “top of their game” so the visiting couple or host do not even see what goes on behind the scenes.
But on the other hand people have a way of making friends with others who have the same type of income and status. If you dont, often you will not be invited in the first place. I still think the couple should have meals either at their own place, family or go to middle aged to elderly couples.
Its interesting why the question was not asked about older couples- I guess because couples in their 60s don’t care about these things anymore.
Oh grow up let’s not be babies. I’m a newlywed and I don’t care if the other people have it better. I’d rather be invited out with my friends who are married and hear about all their lives than not be invited out.
Lefty: So, you don’t like to be alone with your wife that much?
Thats a very odd conclusion to make maybe you are projecting because I didnt say that.
Not really odd. The question is why you want to hear about all their lives than not be invited out? It sounds like an easy way to create an atmosphere for lashon harah. If you told me you liked exhanging divrei Torah with your friends, I can understand that. But I made my comment because I have known people over the years who really did not like to be home alone so often invited guests or got invited out. I just asked a question, did not draw a conclusion.
No.I said I would rather hear stories of their life then not be invited of course we will tell divrei torah. I dont know about you but it wont make me jealous because I will be very happy for my friends and their wife. And look how you wrote your “question” and tell me it isnt a assumption. Oh right.Thats why there is a comma after so.
I didn’t mention anything about jealousy, I mentioned lashon harah and you just added “of course we will tell divrei Torah,” which wasn’t in your original post and would lead one to believe that wasn’t on the agenda. And yes, it still is a question. There are different ways of phrasing questions and it obviously touched a nerve with you.
but someone told me that it’s the wrong thing to do as it causes jealousy
Are you Joseph cuz you sure sound like him or maybe you spend to many lunches eating by his house :p
It’s OK as long as you call the other couple Mr. and Mrs. Ploni. It could get confusing if they have sons, because you should also call THEM Mr. Ploni. (For example, “I think Mr. Ploni needs a diaper change.”) Daughters are easier because they’re MISS Ploni.
Lefty: I think I am not alone with this opinion. I see you are trying to justify something that may be questionable. In an average seudah, how much time can you spend catching up on what your friends are doing? And you speak of yourself not being jealous of others, but what of others jealous of you? A therapist friend of mine told me years ago that some quite untoward behavior sometimes arise among couples that spend time together. A maivin yavin.
I would suggest that it all depends on you. If you are sensitive to matters of Kedusha, then an intimate meal with another couple may indeed not be the best idea.
Benzion – I use intimate in the sense or tete-a-tete. Where there are only four people at a table (unless its a really long table!) it will be intimate. A reualr Shabbos meal obvosuly depends on myriad circumsatnces. if I start to delineate some of those, any I leave out will be questioned.
Listen, cant we all agree that since we have such various backgrounds that its nearly impossible to agree? An MO who grew up on Bnei Akiva will not get whats wrong with talking to his freidns wife. A yeshivish gu from out of town will not get whats wrong with having friends over even if they don’t talk. A shpitz yeshivish guy from Lakewood will not understand etc.
aquestioningjew: regardless of the background, people should be aware that it may be an issue to consider. The fact that an MO doesnt see anything wrong with it, should at least be aware that it may be an issue, but without getting into what MO folks follow or not, they may be aware but just don’t consider it worth noting.
bentzion: I don’t think trying to minimize opportunities for lashon harah is nuts. But do ask yourself why inviting people who are your contemporaries (in contrast to elderly or lonely people) is so important to you. Do you consider it hachonasas orchim if they have a home and means of their own? Is it just to have a good time?
If one family has over another family, I don’t see anything wrong with it. But one couple and another couple is too intimate and it could lead to problems, ch”v.
Flatbusher – I agree. I said that an MO may not “Get” the problem, meaning that they might not understand. lets be fair, its strange to hear that while you have “platonic” girlfriends, others wont even eat at people’s houses where men and ladies might talk. But of course, we (of the yeshivishe velt) consider this an issue.
I remember when I was a Bochur in EY I had rules about who I would eat at. Never young marrieds. Just so wrong on so many levels.
“why can’t the ‘guest wife’ help in the kitchen?”
Husbands can help in the kitchen, too.
In fact, I often cook entire Shabat meals for ourselves and for guests!
we have often invited couples where my wife is friendly with the mrs. and me with the mr. she shmoozes with her friend about lady things, i shmooze with my friend about men stuff and talk divrei torah and we all enjoy a nice shabbos seuda.
Husbands can help in the kitchen, too.
In fact, I often cook entire Shabat meals for ourselves and for guests!
Me too. I love to cook. I reckon I’m even pretty good at it.
apushatayid: I have no doubt that that is your experience, but please be aware that everyone is different and things can get out of hand. The original poster raised some issues of jealousy, etc, and I don’t think that can be discounted.
we have often invited couples where my wife is friendly with the mrs. and me with the mr. she shmoozes with her friend about lady things, i drink with my friend and talk sports and we all enjoy a nice shabbos seuda.
FTFY
Bentzion: OK, so what if something inappropriate does happen? What would you say or do?
FTFY = fixed that for you.
I think you can use your imagination. But in something related, many many years ago, there were two men who were chavrusas, who learned at home, and the wife was always around and in the end she divorced her husband, the chavrusa divorced his wife and they married each other. If your imagination doesn’t suggest anything, would you want your wife to get too familiar with your friend?
I think you can use your imagination. But in something related, many many years ago, there were two men who were chavrusas, who learned at home, and the wife was always around and in the end she divorced her husband, the chavrusa divorced his wife and they married each other. If your imagination doesn’t suggest anything, would you want your wife to get too familiar with your friend?
And I’m aware of a similar situation with a brother and sister in law, married to siblings who then divorced and married each other. Do we ban family getting together as well (just noting the logical inconsistency, not arguing for either side).
Perhaps that was th RBSO’s plan to get the Bashert’s together?
I think you can use your imagination. But in something related, many many years ago, there were two men who were chavrusas, who learned at home, and the wife was always around and in the end she divorced her husband, the chavrusa divorced his wife and they married each other. If your imagination doesn’t suggest anything, would you want your wife to get too familiar with your friend?
I am sure this does happen , and probably happend more than once, but how about the following could also happen. Shabbos can be long and while married people get along, sometimes cabin fever sets in and they start to get mad and fighting with each other (Especially on a long winter night or a long summer day). Having other people over can calm this tension.
I wouldn’t call such a sick scenario as “basherts”. And just because you can’t eliminate the problem altogether, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take steps to reduce the likelihood of its occurrence.
There have also been people killed by seatbelts.
Bentzion: You asked “What does everyone here think of young couples inviting each other over for Seudas on Shabbos?”
I told you what I think. For my wife and I, we have our way of doing things. This doesnt mean what we do is what everyone should do. It is what I think works for us.
After asking the forum what we think, you told us what you think.
“Personally I think it’s a nice thing as new friendships are made,”
And then you told us what “someone” thinks.
“but someone told me that it’s the wrong thing to do as it causes jealousy (wife, apartment etc).”
I chose to answer your question, not opine on what you or someone else thinks. That is for you and your spouse or for someone and his/her spouse to discuss.
“Perhaps that was the RBSO’s plan to get the Bashert’s together?”
I didnt finish all shas(yet), so I can not say this definitvely, but am reasonably certain that even though harbeh shluchim lamakom, this is not one of them.
I know it’s Adar but surely there are limits to the the craziness.
I never suggested a ban. The question whether it is advisable. Sure anything can happen, but family affairs are harder to avoid than casual Shabbos invitations with a single couple.
Zahavasdad: If a couple cannot coexist for a period for 24 hours without fighting, I think that couple need more than a guest to keep things in check.
“a single couple”
I’ll add this to my list of oxymorons.
you know what i mean– single= only one
“in the end she divorced her husband, the chavrusa divorced his wife and they married each other”
In the spirit of Rebbe Levi Yitzchok M’Barditchiv: ?? ???? ?????
these people actually went to the trouble of divorcing and marrying each other and didn’t indulge their ???? like the goyim.
The Queen: The details of the story posted by flatbusher that you quoted does not indicate the conclusion you assumed.
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