Intelligent Life

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  • #613671
    bekitzur
    Participant

    A friend and I had a discussion about this recently. Would there be any hashkafic problems with the idea of intelligent life on other planets?

    #1032023
    Joseph
    Participant

    Define intelligent.

    #1032024
    Redleg
    Participant

    Not so clear that there’s intelligent life on this planet.

    #1032025
    SamR
    Member

    Somewhere in our vast universe, there has to be at least one other planet with intelligent life. Now, whether they’ve come to Earth is a completely different story. Probably not – we’re not very interesting compared to a planet with life that is so intelligent that they’ve found us when we weren’t able to find them.

    #1032026
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Very good Redleg!

    #1032027
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    redleg,

    you took the words out of my hands

    #1032028
    benignuman
    Participant

    I believe that Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan has an essay about whether there is intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe. I think he concludes that it is a machlokes Rishonim.

    #1032029
    Sam2
    Participant

    There either is or isn’t. Reality never provides a Hashkafic problem with Judaism. If there are, it’s not a problem. If there aren’t, it’s not a problem.

    #1032030
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, there could be haskafic problems when someone’s opinions diverge from reality.

    #1032031
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    This has been argue for many generations already. The main proof (from a Torah source) advanced in favor of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is the pasuk in Shoftim (5:23) ?????? ?????? ????? ???????? ?’ ????? ?????? ?????????? ???? ??? ????? ????????? ?’ ????????? ?’ ??????????????

    The Gemara in Moed Katan in discussing ???? says ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???????. So there is an opinion that it is a star. And the pasuk refers to ?????????? i.e. its inhabitants.

    I believe (I’m saying believe in case I am misremembering) that R’ Soloveitchik said that it is plausible that there is other life because H’ wants to do chessed so why would the chessed be limited to the infinitesimally miniscule Earth. It’s likely that there is a lot of life out there – the more life = the more chessed that H’ can do. You can look this up in “The Rav Thinking Aloud” which I don’t currently have. (If I had it I would quote the relevant portion.)

    #1032032
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    If there is, they are smart enough not to try and contact us.

    #1032033
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Patur, from Rashi it seems like something less glamorous. He says it is referring to Sisra’s Mazal. In that case, the inhabitants are the people under that Mazel.

    #1032034
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I think it just means that that is the star of Sisera’s mazal. Which then could mean that the ?????????? are the inhabitants of the star. Also see the Maharsha who implies that there might not be any source for Rashi’s statement. Also it seems that the Yaavetz did not understand Rashi as referring to the people under Sisera’s mazal.

    #1032035
    amaaretz
    Participant

    We actually have a concept of extraterrestrial life discussed in the Torah: that of the ???. Obviously however we’re all reddening to an intelligent life that is not privy to divine instructions and lives in its own planet with its own people such as ourselves. So here’s what I can tell you:

    There are various Pesukim in Tanach that are “used and abuses” when it comes to this topic. One such Pasuk would be ?????? ????? ?? ?????? etc. If you take Olamim to mean physical worlds, the Pasuk should mean that Hashem’s kingdom is a kingdom “for all worlds”. Now if we’re talking about barren planets with nothing on them, what does that mean? One solution can be to translate the Pasuk as “Your kingdom is a kingdom for all time”, ???? mening time as in ????? ???.

    In many places Chazal describe the immensity of our universe, all the millions of stars that are in it etc. and they go on to explain how all this was created for man. Which causes one to say “Wow. Really? Perhaps there’s other life out there?” We do have two Midrashim that are open to this interpretation. The Pasuk in Koheles says ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? – Everything was made properly in its proper time. The Medrash has 3 explanations for this Pasuk. The second is R’ Avahu: We see from here that Hashem has made many universes and destroyed them, ?? ???? ?? ???. This Medrash is sometimes quotes regarding the Ice Ages. The importance of this Medrash is that it opens up the possibility of there having been other worlds similar to ours, albeit in a different time. (The fact that Hashem destroyed them is not a sugn that he made a mistake, rather if there was intelligent life there, they would have brought destruction unto themselves, just like what happened during the times of Noach where they had their own Bechira and messed up.)

    There is a Gemara that asks “What does Hashem do at night?” The Gemara provides to answers. The first: exactly what he does during the day! The second answer (there are many Seforim that explain these type of Gemaras) is that Hashem gets into his chariot and rides around eighteen thousand Olamos. (Someone recently told me that this Gemara lists a number if stars, which was about two digits more or less from the number that NASA gives!)

    There is a Rishon R. Chasdai Kreshkish who deals with this issue. He brings arguments in favor of, and opposed to extraterrestrial life. Among the ones in favor of: Whether you beleive the world came into being because of Hashem’s desire, or wether it came simply because it had to be so, why couldn’t this desire or neccesity mandate that there be multiple worlds! Moreover, according to our view, which is that Hashem made this world out of his own Ratzon, is Hashem stingy all of a sudden? Why would he stop here? The more He cretes, the more good He’s able to provide (which is the reason why He created us). On the other hand he says: We only find multiplicity of entities regarding things which exist and are mortal. There are many trees, because trees get destroyed. Which is the reason why you need to have more than one tree. Which is why for entities that do not get destroyed, there is no multiplicity. Therefore, says R. Chasdai, since our world cannot be destroyed, there are no other worlds (I also have a hard time understanding that). Another argument is: The One who created all that exists is One, is the simplest and purest sense that One can mean, so that which he brings into existence should also be one. Either because everybody must agree that that which is purely one, will also create things which are purely one. Or you can say that the perfection of that which is created should reflect its creator, therefore you only need one. Now, you can drive a truck through the holes in these arguments, but this is what this Rishon says. He goes on to debunk almost all of his arguments, for and against extraterrestrial life. He concludes by saying that “I cannot get a definitive answer from any of my arguments, but one thing we do see: that the possibility of extraterrestrial life exists.”

    In conclusion, we see that although there is no proof in the Torah of extraterrestrial life, we see that such a possibility does exists, and there wouldn’t be a Hashkafic reason to beleive it doesn’t exist, rather it is up to you to look at different interpatations of Pesukim, and contemporary science to formulate an opinion. If I have patience (and if I see people are interested:) I’ll post more!

    #1032036
    benignuman
    Participant

    Torah.org has excerpts from Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan’s essay. According to Rabbi Kaplan it is a three-way machlokes Rishonim:

    1. R’Chasdai Crescas holds that there is intelligent life on many other worlds (that is how he understands the Gemara in Avoda Zara 3b).

    2. Rabbi Yosef Albo (baal sefer HaIkarrim) holds that only human earthlings are intelligent life.

    3. The Sefer Habris holds there is intelligent life elsewhere but they do not have free will. Only humans have free will.

    #1032037
    Randomex
    Member

    Don’t some say that the stars themselves are intelligent beings?

    #1032038
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The stars are not alive according to our definition of life.

    #1032039
    amaaretz
    Participant

    Benignuman:

    See my post above where I bring down a big chunk if R. Chasdai and conclude that he does not say there is extraterrestrial life, rather that the possibility can Hashkafically exist.

    #1032040
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Someone recently told me that this Gemara lists a number if stars, which was about two digits more or less from the number that NASA gives!”

    The number of stars given by the Gemara in Berachos (32b) is 1,064,340,000,000,000,000

    The number of stars given by Modern Science varies based on diffeent approximations, but is anywhere from 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 which while obviously based on approximations and extrapolations from the number of stars which can be seen, is 1,000-10,000 times more than the gemara’s number.

    Interestingly, the Ralbag in his commentary to Lech Lecha writes that Avraham saw in a nevuah that his descendants would be as numerous as the uncountable stars but that was because at that time the number of stars was not known. I.e. the Ralbag thought that where were rather few stars (as he explains in Milchamos H’) but Avraham’s nevuah reflected the (mistaken) belief that there were in fact numerous stars. He holds that nevuah doesn’t have to reflect reality; it reflects the navi’s view of reality (although I think in Milchamos H’ he explains differently).

    #1032041
    amaaretz
    Participant

    PAA

    I stand corrected, thanks! Interesting Ralbag, thanks for sharing. I still stand by my previous conclusion – there is no Hashkafic problem with believing on extraterrestrial life, the only problems may be scientific, but that’s not my department.

    #1032042
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “PAA

    I stand corrected, thanks!”

    I wasn’t particularly coming to correct you inasmuch as I just needed an excuse to segue into this topic.

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