"intellectual stimulation"

There is intellectual stimulation to be had in raising kids, plenty of it, but we are not taught this way. There is a lot of social pressure to believe it is more prestigious to do something other than raise one’s own kids.

The Shulchan Aruch and Rambam both say a woman should not leave her house too many times. (Rambam says twice a month; Shulchan Aruch doesn’t specify a number.)

I really like and agree with what aries and Queen Bee said.

I think the key is for a mother to try to do what’s best for her AND for her children. And depending on each individual situation, there can be many different arrangements to reach the best solution.

Part of the problem is that we don’t realize the potential that our babies, toddlers and pre-schoolers have to learn about their world. If a woman would spend hours to make herself into a good mechanechet for a salary, why would she not understand the parallel at home with her own children? Very young children respond to their mother educating them in amazing ways. Read to your babies, soon they will begin to sit still and be engrossed in the pictures and mommy’s explanation of them. Use educational toys and show the children how to use them. Help develop your little one’s vocabulary by speaking frequently to them and showing you understand what they are trying to say to you. Teaching very young children makes them happy as they master elements of their world, and builds confidence and self-esteem. If we see our little ones as only being capable of doing what we ask them in return for a candy, its understandable that the moms are looking elsewhere.

Here’s something that bothers me about some parents today. It could be that I’m not a parent so I just don’t see it from there point of view and if that’s what it is, then please feel free to correct me.

I dislike when parents during winter break or summer break or yuntif break complain that their children are home and go on and on counting the amount of hours it will be until they are back in school. Shouldn’t we be happy to have our children at home and enjoy them? Afterall, aren’t there many many couples who wish they would have the zechus of playing with their children on these vacations?

Like I said, it could be I’m wrong about this but I see/hear it pretty often and it just frustrates me. But again, please correct me if I’m wrong or only seeing this one-sided.

How many of you have a child with a disability, who comes home, wrecks your house, steals, breaks things, who literally will not give you a moment of peace? It’s so easy to say what we should be, but how many of you actually know what it is to have a child with issues? So, you might say, we’re not talking about a child like that, we’re talking about the typically developing child. So, what about the parent who desperately wants children, because she loves children and wants to raise them, and then finds that her physical energy and stamina is just insufficient to match the needs of her children? You dream of the ideal woman who has boundless means of energy, when many women that I know struggle just to keep up with their kids and wind up screaming in exasperation? How would a woman know as she’s having her kids that as they grow she’d feel like this? It is true, that once upon a time people had family to turn to to share their responsibilities. No more. Women are expected to do it all on their own. For shame if she hires help. It means she'”less than”. Stop judging people. You don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. In theory I agree, but we don’t live in a theory based world.

I LOVE looking after my children and home.

(I was raised by a staff of 5 and KNOW you can’t pay someone to care like a parent!)

I take my “job” as a “Soul builder” very seriously ,no nanny can do what I do with the same love and devotion or be trusted to uphold my values and standards .

The ugly truth is that women have been socialized and pressured to look down on our role of full time mothers and the “Lack of intellectual stimulation” is a trusted PC excuse some use to convince themselves that being unhappy at home makes them “superior”. It is hard work but it is the best job.

Everyday I LEARN Torah shiurim while doing my chores and at the end of the day I talk to my husband and compare insights ,It gives me “chat material” beyond the kids.

Keeping Yourself “stimulated” is your task as a mother and should not come at the expense of children raised by goyot so you can feel “smarter”!

* If a woman must work or support a TALENTED Talmid Chacham husband then is a different story and they have my respect and admiration !

But those “ladies of leisure” who simple do it for THEIR intellectual stimulation are abdicating their blessing for ego and risking their long term bond with their children and missing out on the great task of building the world.

Yup, I thought you were serious. Otherwise I would have said the same thing, and meant it.

Intellectual Stimulation has nothing to do with going out.

Our greatest masterminds spent much of their lives indoors

shteiging over the torah.

Maybe social stimulation is what you should call it.

Any woman can be at home and get stimulated intellectually

by thousands of seforim in english, or books, or E’books,

or online in any field. It has nothing to do with being out of the house all day having your children raised by grandmothers, strangers, or goyim, just not by their Mommy.

It is an excuse wrapped in baloney.

Chazal Tell us by Dina

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That she was outgoing like her mother. That brought on the story

with She’chem who was M’fateh her.

It goes to teach us that trouble finds those women who roam the streets of the world with excuses of stimulation or enrichment etc.. I’m not knocking anything just stating the Torahs view

on where a Jewish Womens ideal place should be.

If they absolutely Must go out into the world, they should be aware of how Araiy it should be and rush back as soon as their task is over.

Mingling, exploring, roaming, flirting, these actions are dangerous for it is predetermined that it will end up causing pain and shame.

A fishes place is in the ocean.

There are fish that exit the ocean. Usually though, they remain anchored with most of its body in the water.

Even when it leaps out, it is only for a brief few seconds.

For it knows its place is in the ocean and if it does not return immediately, the results are fatal.

Sorry, I do not have anyone in shidduchim now, but hatzlocha…. One more thought—-children are bashert just as our spouse. Raising children challenges parents to mature, gain wisdom, become more resourceful and practice self-restraint. Most of all raising children is a chesed. The children we are blessed with are the right match to help each of us improve ourselves.

TC, it doesn’t take much to “father” a family. The reason men can go out to work and do it well is because they don’t have to worry about the children knowing that their “mommies” are taking care of them.

As for education and working until you are married and until you have children or when your kids are back in school, that is NOT what we are talking about. Go for it. This discussion is about those women who say it is not “intellectually stimulating” to stay home and raise a family. To me that is garbage.

Uh, what about when finances require a mother to work?

Mommamia: maybe the outcome has to do with the preparation. If a mother approaches child-rearing thinking negatively and assuming she is not valued among her peers for being a full time mother, she is less likely to want to cope well, and will not put out her very best. On the other hand, are the high schools and post-high schools preparing girls well for motherhood? Or is the focus on something else?

EzratHashem, unfortunately HS’s are not focussed any longer on teaching their students that their first obligation is to be good mothers and good wives and that raising their children is the most important and best job in the world. That is no longer taught. Girls are motivated and pushed to have careers so that they could support their husbands. They are “NOT” motivated to get as much education as possible because as mikehall said Hashem gave them a brain, or because no one knows when they will get married or have children so they should continue their education and be whatever they want to be and then allow their husbands to learn as long as they can.

Did this contribute to the shidduch crisis? Yes it could have because when you have very educated and now sophisticated young women working in the real world, they no longer have anything in common or anything to talk about with their yeshivish male counterparts.

Mikehall: to develop the brain in the pursuit of raising secure, happy and intellectually curious yiddishe neshamas.

On the other hand, are the high schools and post-high schools preparing girls well for motherhood? Or is the focus on something else?

Of course not. Even you agree there needs to be SOMEONE working to put food on the table.

aries2756

I’m really enjoying your input on this thread! I too, have a very strong opinion on this; thank you for setting the record straight about the privilege, patience, and priority shift that motherhood is all about.

mikehall — I am a woman with “a brain”, B”H. Without putting up my resume right now I will say that both in high school and college I was considered very smart, and I have a B.A. and M.S. and worked in the secular world for 10 years, and am now beginning my 2nd year as a “stay at home mom”. I therefore think I am somewhat qualified to state emphatically that there is plenty of opportunity as a mother and wife to stimulate and challenge your brain!! As many people have already mentioned, the job itself involves a lot of brain power, and a women always have the option to listen to tapes, read books, etc.

That is not to say there are no reasons that a woman may feel unfulfilled at home. IMO, one of the posters earlier who mentioned “social stimulation” is on target. It can be very lonely and isolating to be spending your entire day without adult conversation, which may be the “stimulation” these women are craving.

aries — I personally strongly agree that ideally a woman should be focusing her talents and energy on her most important role as a mother. However as with all generalizations, there certainly are exceptions, and every one needs to know themselves. I personally love being home with my kids finally, and find myself laughing out loud when former co-workers wonder if I’m “going out of my mind” home all day (I worked until now as a result of financial necessity, not because I wanted to). I don’t believe, though, that a woman who finds it overwhelming to be home all day with her kids, and chooses to work/ volunteer/ learn outside of her house is not worthy of having and raising kids, as you imply. Obviously there are extremes in everything, and someone who is pursuing selfish desires at the expense of their kids needs a serious change in priorities. But sometimes a woman may know her weaknesses and realize that the time spent out of the house is necessary for her own well being. It’s not ideal, but these women are doing the best they can and many are wonderful mothers and wives despite these needs. I found your posts to be very judgmental.

While there is plenty of opportunity to stimulate your brain staying home, this does not address those women, who still feel the need/desire to do more.

I do agree with pursuing more for selfish reason like working so you can simply go on fancy trips is wrong…

but I don’t have an issue with someone who wants to further their career or education because they desire that type of stimulation

m in Israel: Was it worth spending all those years pursuing a BA and MS for just 10 entry-level years of post-school work? You almost spent as much time schooling as working using what you were schooled on!

A point to consider. Many women start “school” and “work” before they have children and almost always before they are even engaged, let alone married.

Are you proposing that all those years of schooling go for naught? Are you suggesting that all jewish females enroll in a full time seminary until the day they have their first child?

It is nice quote pie in the sky sentiment. It is quite another to offer something practical.

Please offer something concrete.

aries — From your last post it seems that we don’t disagree. If your problem is simply with the explanation that someone is working for “intellectual stimulation” then I agree with you (as I said strongly in my previous post). My problem was that you seemed to say that any woman who works when it is not out of financial necessity is a bad mother. I was simply trying to make the point that a woman who knows herself and is making choices for her own emotional health may still be a good mother, assuming these choices are within reason. I love being home full time with my kids — but I can understand how some women may find it hard.

I have a friend who worked out of financial necessity in the early years of her marriage. At some point her husband got a better paying job that allowed her to quit her job and stay home with her kids. She stayed home for a year and went out of her mind — her personality was such that she craved the social interaction and structure that going to work each day gave her. The next year she returned to work part time, and although I could not relate to her feelings, I still think she’s a great mother who loves her kids.

Obviously your kids should come first, and the ideal is for a woman to be there for her kids all the time — but part of caring for your kids is caring for yourself. There is a famous story of a woman who was at her wits end after a rough day and just needed some “me” time, so she locked herself in the bathroom and settled down for a relaxing bath. The kids began knocking on the door and asking her what she was doing. She responded “I’m making a mother for you.” It takes a lot of self introspection and honesty to differentiate between your selfish desires and your legitimate emotional needs, but it it important.

apushatayid — I don’t understand your point. Are your trying to say that because a woman needs something to do in the years before she has a child, and getting a degree/ starting a career is a good use of that time, therefore for the next 20 years she shouldn’t be home with her kids??? She’s working because otherwise she wasted her schooling? What if she got a job offer that did not require her degree, that was a much better job, would she turn it down because how can she let her schooling go for naught?

When you have to work your kids around your job rather than your job around your kids, then you are stepping into that territory of NOT being a good mother. When you bring your job home and have no patience or time for your kids even when you are at home, then you are not a good mother. When you have no time for your kids or are too tired to listen to them or play with them because you are too tired from your job then you are NOT a good mother. Because Motherhood still has to come before your career. If the career is that important to you, then you have to make that decision before you make the decision to become a mother. Not everyone can have everything and it is no mitzvah to bring children into this world that will be ignored or raised by others. Those children grow up feeling unloved and unwanted and they carry the burden of they mother’s choices.