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- This topic has 9 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 2 months ago by Pashuteh Yid.
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September 7, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #592310myfriendMember
I was asked what is the most effective course in dealing with an insubordinate wife (moredes)? Has anyone had experience on this issue or have suggestions?
September 7, 2010 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #694791so rightMemberwell, your question is a bit short on the details. halachicly he can withhold her needs (food, etc.) but it is really situation dependent, and how much the situation deteriorated. sometimes she can be dealt with in a lighter approach, with more positive and effective results.
September 7, 2010 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #694792tikvuchkaMemberwhat qualifies as a wife life this? what does she have to do? who decides that she is this?
September 7, 2010 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #694793SJSinNYCMemberFirst, I would find out why she is doing what she is.
I think classifying a woman as a true moredes is rare.
September 7, 2010 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #694794MoqMemberI think that this is a really bad place to work out shalom bayis issues. And as SJS said, moredes is rarely a recourse. Find a Rov and/or a competent (oy! make sure you get a competent one!) marriage counselor (with a phd. Who charges an arm and a leg. Not some little girl who just graduated with 15 month counseling degree and has been married for six months).
September 7, 2010 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #694795so rightMemberwhat actions place a wife into the halachic category of moredes?
September 7, 2010 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #694796smartcookieMemberI don’t understand. You’re asking us?
This is a very urgent and major question. Please go to a rav.
September 7, 2010 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #694797bptParticipantyes, please tell us a bit more of what the questioner had in mind as far as being a moredes. This promise to be a good thread. In 20+ years, I cannot think of a single instance that I would have called my wife “insubordinate”. Argumentative, difficult, ect. perhaps. But insubordinate? To use a phrase like that, I’d skip the rov and go right to the sofer.
September 7, 2010 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #694798WIYMemberThis needs a Rov and a qualified marriage counselor.
September 7, 2010 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #694799Pashuteh YidMemberGenerally, I think moredes refers to tashmish. The Rambam seems to also include certain melachos that women are supposed to do for their husbands into the category, as well. (Husbands also have obligations to support their wives in return.)
A man can also be a mored in the area of tashmish, as well. Either side can call beis din if they feel they are being denied their rights. It becomes tricky if one side says the other is being mored, but the other side says they are together in a normal marital framework. Beis Din can’t send eidim into the room.
One thing to note is that while a man can divorce his wife if he claims she is a moredes, beis din would not grant a woman a divorce for making that claim, since they would be chosesh that maybe she set her eyes upon another man. i.e., maybe she is making up a lie to get herself a divorce so she can marry somebody she developed an attraction for. It is very complex how beis din can verify the truth.
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