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yitzchokm, people have their own reasons for their choices and it is up to the various yeshivas being applied to, to ask that question “if you are not that makpid in your own home or in your own levush, why do you want your child in our yeshiva?”
It is possible that the child falls between the cracks. Or the child is more serious than the parents or is looking for more, or the parents really wants the best chinuch for the child even if it means the child will be different and more frum than they are, or will ask them to make changes in their lives.
It is horrible that so many of you are looking from the other perspective as are the yeshivas. So many of you with this stinkin thinkin almost think there is a conspiracy going on where people who are a little to the left are getting together trying to bust into ultra frum yeshivas in order to destroy them. How utterly ridiculous, what would Rav Pam z”tl, or Rav Moshe z’tl say about all this?
did you even bother to look at my post btw?>
To Jothar – I think that I must not have been as clear as I should have been. I am impressed with your research. I recommend that people do research as you did, and not “ploppel” on the Internet regarding serious halocha issues.
(For those who don’t know Yeshivish “to ploppel” is a big insult – it means to talk pompously and irresposibly about serious topics which you know almost nothing about.) Some people discuss major halocha and hashkofa issues on Internet forums as if they were discussing the merits and drawbacks of different brands of chocolate. If I can convice one person that the Intenet is not the place for complex issues for which you need a Rav or Madricha, I will be very happy.
As far as I know you (Jothar) have been “meshamesh talmidei chachamim”. (A partial explanation of “meshamesh talmidei chachomim” is to get first hand experience in practical halocha and its application.) I did not mean to accuse you of anything. I am impressed that you actually researched the topic. Your friend Menachem Melamed.
You said I cannot understand why chatrooms and the Coffeeroom are taking the place of research and asking one’s Rav.
In general there are alot of issues people are for whatever afraid to discuss or ask (Not Just Halacha) Its much easier for many to ask these questions online anonymously and get an anonymous answer.
Do you feel you can ask your Rav ANY questions (Empasis on ANY), maybe you feel you can, but there are many who do not feel that they can ask their Rav ANY question
Menachem Melamed, speaking negatively about Yidden is not allowed when it’s done without a valid reason. When there is a real need, it’s permitted.
There is little doubt that things are getting more chumradik. Last night we went out to eat in a restaurant that has two separate rooms and two separate kitchens divided by wall sized sliding windows. We were eating in the meat restaurant and some of the waiters came out to take a break. Meanwhile a waiter from the milk restaurant opened one of the windows to ask them a question. My husband joked that now some chalavi air has gotten into the meat restaurant. Most of the frum waiters laughed but one non frum guy’s face went white. He actually thought there might be something to it! In the next few years, when having separate milk and meat kitchens will be the accepted practice-just remember that we started it!
menachem melamed, I hear. Tizku lemitzvos. I guess I misunderstood you.
Zahavasdad, I think lakewood has an anonymous halacha line where you can call up and receive an anonymous answer.
Jothar,
Its alot easier to type something than say something sometimes
Either you are embarassed to say certain words or you think your voice might be recognized
I am not stating everyone feels this way, but some do feel this way
aries,
It is horrible that so many of you are looking from the other perspective as are the yeshivas.
Why is it horrible for someone to have a different opinion than you?
If the child is frummer than the parents, the parents should do what it takes to get him/her accepted – even if it means difficult lifestyle changes. But the school has a right to keep its standards, for the benefit of all its students.
DaasYochid-
my point exactly.
DY, what does it have to do with MY opinion?????
We are talking about why kids go off the derech. The parents bring the child to the yeshivah that would be best for the child. The school rejects them out of hand because they are so insecure and have not taught their talmidim why they do what they do. They have NOT taught them why they follow the rules they follow. They have NOT taught their talmidim how to answer questions if asked. So they are afraid that taking a child from a little bit outside of their own community can cause such havoc.
The parents are doing the right thing trying to get their child into the yeshiva they think is best for them. What more should they do? Should they lie and put on masks when they go for the interview like so many others do? Should they pretend to be someone they are not, like so many others do? Is it the livush that makes the person?
On the other hand the yeshiva can say, “when you come to the school whether to pick up your child, or for meetings or functions you will be expected to dress according to the rules just like your child. And for the mother “and cover your hair properly”. If the parents agree there should be no problem with it.
There is a concept not to add Chumros sometimes so as not to be Motzi La’az on the Doros Harishonim. Apparently some now think that it’s okay to completely disregard the Doros Harishonim so that we can add Chumros.
DaasYochid, I think I can put what Aries is saying into different words. There is a standard cookie cutter we have created. If someone doesn’t meet up with that shape, then what do you do with the dough that is left over?
Kids of divorce for one are automatically in a sub category of normal. Is is because we are judging them? AND create the problem, Or is it just that they are more at risk and they fall away?
aries, and scissors,
I guess we’re talking about different things. I’m not referring to a yeshiva which rejects a child based only upon external appearances or family history. I’m talking about children who are not accepted because of the potential negative impact they might have on other children.
(My point to you, aries, was addressing the fact that you seemed to be complaining that some of us don’t see things from your perspective, presumably that of an advocate for the children who aren’t accepted to the school of their parent’s choice. I was pointing out that the schools and we are advocating for the children who are already in the school or will be accepted.)
I once heard a story about a school meeting where there was a discussion about expelling a student. The child’s rebbe related the heartfelt pleas he heard from the boy’s parents to keep him in the school. To which the principal replied “you didn’t hear the mothers crying to me that their children’s neshamos were being sullied by this child”.
aries2756-
“The parents bring the child to the yeshivah that would be best for the child. The school rejects them out of hand because they are so insecure and have not taught their talmidim..”
They get rejected because the parents refuse to understand that the school they applied to is not for their child. Just because the parents thing do doesn’t make it so. The Yeshiva understands that if the parent CHOOSES not to listen to halacha (by not covering the hair properly, ect), and does so in a blatant way, then, yes, the child will learn that yiddishkit is something to learn, but has little to do in real life practice.
DY, once again you jumped to conclusions and thought you knew what I was thinking and what I meant rather than what I said. I was speaking about the topic in THIS thread and you were referring to a topic that I discussed in another thread. I thought you agreed not to do that. At any rate, that is another discussion altogether and I had no intention of kidnapping this thread and taking it there.
Sorry yitzchokm, I still disagree with you and prefer to agree with Rav Pam’s way of thinking. Teach the child and he will teach the parents. I have a much more positive perspective and I know, from my experience that keeping a positive approach to children will yield positive results.
Yes aries2756, you do need to go on. What about the ones who leave bc they simply decided it wasn’t true?
Yitzchkom,from haircovering alone? And what about going to shul and seeing some people talk during davening? He’ll see aveiros anyhow.
I’ve written this story here before, but I’ll write it again now. Here’s how R’ Shmuel Berenbaum zt”l handled someone who was a bad influence on others.
When my Rosh Yeshiva was a bachur in the Mir, there was a guy who got involved in a shady gambling ring. He lost badly, and was deeply in debt to some very unsavory characters. To try and pay them, he got others from the yeshiva involved in it.
A group of older bachurim went to R’ Berenbaum zt”l and told him what was going on. They told him they felt the guy had to be kicked out of the yeshiva. After all, he wasn’t just doing it himself – he was actively encouraging others to join him!
R’ Berenbaum yelled at them! He said, “How can you ask such a thing? Do you know what a responsibility it is to throw someone out of a yeshiva? It’s not a decision that can be made lightly!”
R’ Berenbaum ended up not throwing the guy out. Instead, he spent extra time with him, one on one.After a while, the guy got out of the gambling thanks to R’ Berenbaum. My RY said the guy is no a well known and respected mechanech. For obvious reasons, he didn’t tell us his name, so I can’t post it here.
Throwing someone out of a yeshiva, even when the person is influencing others, is not a simple thing to do.
this thread was started to discuss not accepting a kid in the first place…not throwing a kid out…
There is a very specific point of argument here:
Rav Dessler was well known to have said that the correct mehalech is to push everyone hard, so that the best may come out of some. If others suffer (and go OTD), so be it. This mehalech would insist on elite schools, where only the best attend, and only “good” families are allowed in.
The other school of thought is that every Yiddishe neshoma is precious, and it is not worth losing any for the betterment of a few.
Those who want “elite” schools are of the first mehalech (your child may affect my child, even if it will cause your child to go OTD)(at least until they have a child who breaks the mold!). Others (such as Rav Birnbaum from above, Rabbi Bender of Yeshiva Darchei Torah (who deserves special mention for his work with special children), etc.) are of the second mehalech, and try to educate every Yiddishe neshoma.
Aries-
I’m not here to argue with rav Pam, chas veshom. I don’t believe that rav Pam would put all children, from all backgrounds together with the hope of having a melting pot effect, when there are other yeshivas available to cater to those children.
Mdd
Those who talk in Shul don’t were their sins on their head.
And they don’t wake up in the morning and put it on, knowing it’s wrong.
Fief un
Would the rosh yeshiva have allowed him to learn n his yeshiva in the first place if he had a gambling problem to begin with? That’s the question. Kicking someone out is a whole different story.
You can’t let someone go off the derech and you cant pin them down, either. The best way not to let them go is to let them know the truth. What they are chasing after is false and they will realize that; some sooner, some later. People should not lose their patience with someone like this. Keep an eye out on them the keep giving them the truth. Believe they will realize the falsehood of what they are doing, but supports and the truth have to be nearby and done in a sensitive manner.
GAW, it is a well known fact that Hashem does not discriminate when dealing the nisayon cards. Those who scream that “your child may affect my child” might be the very same ones that are begging the RY to keep their child in yeshiva the following year. Furthermore if we understood as a community and as a yeshiva system in general the reasons why kids go OTD, and make appropriate corrections to combat the process, we will be in a better position to help those kids and work with them instead of shoving them along their dark journey. There are many more mentors and volunteers in each community that are more than willing to get involved and come into the yeshivas to help out.
aries2756: I agree (and said so as well before).
Note though, there is a shitta that holds we should be willing to sacrifice the weak to the benefit of the strong, so that they may come out stronger.
aries,
I was speaking about the topic in THIS thread and you were referring to a topic that I discussed in another thread. I thought you agreed not to do that. At any rate, that is another discussion altogether and I had no intention of kidnapping this thread and taking it there.
I have absolutely no idea what you mean; I was completely on topic. The OP was talking about school acceptance policies.
Like this 🙂 (not sure the shaychus, but I like it).
“The OP was talking about school acceptance policies.”
DY, yes they were, they were not talking about reasons schools kick kids out, which is what you assumed I was talking about.
Yitzchkom, I must be kidding! And those who speak during davening do so in public with a realization that it is wrong.
Aries,
DY, yes they were, they were not talking about reasons schools kick kids out, which is what you assumed I was talking about.
Actually, you assumed that I assumed you were talking about kids being kicked out, but I really was talking (?) about kids not being initially accepted.
The story I related was just to present the perspective of the schools, but once a child has been accepted, it’s not very simple to throw him out (as in the story with R’ Shmuel Berenbaum zt”l).
“GAW, it is a well known fact that Hashem does not discriminate when dealing the nisayon cards.”
gavra_at_work: Like this 🙂 (not sure the shaychus, but I like it).
emunah613: “There is little doubt that things are getting more chumradik…”
And all the other complaints. Get it?
msseeker: Still not sure. Perhaps a general shift to the right? All tradition is not a good thing?
Still a cute story.
oy vey.
when i was in bais yaakov it was the generation after the holocaust. every child that wished to attend was accepted. the same for yeshivas chasam sofer which my brother attended. there were girls from frummer homes and less frum homes and even several not-frum homes. none of the girls from frum homes went off the derech because of their friends,. it just didn’t happen. people accepted each other. many frum girls became frummer. many not frum girls stayed that way. there was a lot more acceptance and most of the students in both the boys and girls schools grew up to have Torah homes and in many cases outdo their parents in certain levels of observance. it was like in the out of town schools even though i’m talking about new york. years later i see some of these girls who might have been less frum in high school and today they are much frummer. i understand what rebbetsin feinstien is saying. acceptance was the norm then, exclusion is the norm now. the problem is that people who are raised so sheltered actually think that if someone does something a bit different they are doing an aveirah. its not necessarily so. in our school in 1970 the skirts were supposed to reach the knees. a tefach above was acceptable if we wore dark not see through tights. out of 120 girls maybe 10 had skirts that covered the kness and i might be padding that number a bit. for many years the skirt lengths were not an issue and now its a problem again. but it is not clear cut about the knees and elbows having to be completely covered al pi halacha. as far as elbows all the sleeves had to do was reach the elbows, on the inside . and entire communities of shomrei mitzvot like the yekkish community followed rav shamshon rephoel hirsch and had a sleeve which covered half the arm tightly. its great that many pepple are more makpid on tsnius now but be aware that the halacha is not so clear cut ,so don’t say that everyone that doesn’t reach these standards is a sinner.
as far as acceptance. well some people who think they cornered the market on frumkeit think its their job to giver out points for observance to everyone else. other’ s like rebbetsin malkie feinstien understand that we only see the externals and only Hashem knows what’s really going on inside a person.
i met an old school ‘friend’ who used to look down on me because i wasn’t one of the below the knee skirt crowd. well she was was so condescending in her surprise at who and what kind of family i have now. i was so hurt and amazed. from her amazement at my yeshivishe kids and etc. you would have thought that she thought i was the biggest “shiksa’/. only based on her assumptions that if i looked like that then i must be much less frum than she was.
she obviously was so busy paying attention to everyone’s externals that she missed the “don’t embarrass a person it’s similar to shedding blood Halacha.”
Baruch Hashem i have forgiven her for her unfeeling,rude comments and hope Hashem will forgive me for my transgressions too.
paragraph breaks matter
sorry.
i’ll try to remember to do paragraph breaks.
GAW, “Tradition” that broke the tradition of our ancestors is no tradition. Today’s “machmirim” are only returning to their forefathers’ ways.
“..people accepted each other…”
Adults can definitely learn good midos from the children.
goldenkint, a lot of food for thought in your enlightening post.
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