Inappropriate intermingling at Chasunas 💃🍸🍷🕺

Of course not Joseph.
Instead, women should attend weddings wearing plastic shopping bags over their heads. (-the ones you get your groceries in, after you remove the groceries)
This will solve a host of problems.
First of all, the high cost of sheitels (IMHO the sheitel crisis doesn’t get enough attention) as it will now be unnecessary to buy nice ones.
Second, women will not go into the men by keitzad as they won’t be able to see anything anyway.
Third, nosy ladies (and the occasional man who for sure shouldn’t be doing this) won’t be able to ask, “who’s the blonde girl in the blue floral gown? she looks just right for my Shmerel” as nosy ladies won’t see the kalla maidel and will have no idea she’s blonde.
Fourth, people like the OP will enjoy weddings much more and being b’simcha will enhance their ability to be misameizch Chassan v’Kallah.
We will also have a fine environmentally friendly answer for the people who want to enact a plastic shopping bag ban.
A great idea all around, if I may say so myself.
Let’s see how many signatures we can get on the Kol Korei.

The first and easiest thing to do would be the have the same good food by the men as by the ladies.
That’s would do it for me.
There’s a whole spread by the ladies and some loser herring and beef stew.
What were you thinking.

Just rent 2 different halls like the chassidim

Actually, all this could be solved by simply not having any women, including the Kallah, at the Chassunah. There is no reason for any of them to be there.

All you need to do is have a shliach accept the kiddushin for the bride. Have the chassunah and then, later on that night, after everyone has left, have the bride delivered to the chassan’s residence in the presence of two witnesses and watch them close the door. All done. True, you will not be able to recite sheva b’rachos after the seuda, but that’s not essential for the wedding to be valid. The marriage is 100% valid even if the couple never has a Sheva B’rachos.

So, let’s just ban all women (including brides) from weddings. That will solve all of Joseph’s problems.

The Wolf

CTL: I think BaalBoose is referring to the “Kabolos Panim” part of the chasunah where the food by the chosson’s tish is usually not as lavish as by the kallah.

joseph: As happened at my daughter’s chasunah, a woman was on the men’s side dancing “inappropriately” and I just walked over to her and told her to please go back to the women’s side.

Joseph: perhaps if there was more mingling at weddings, the shidduch crisis wouldn’t be as bad. R’ Breuer zt”l wrote in a letter that he encouraged mixed seating especially for younger people, as mitzvah goreres mitzvah, and shidduchim could come about at a wedding.
As for your point about a man walking into the women’s section – you are wrong, the women don’t need to stop dancing. The man has an obligation not to be there, and he should leave. It’s on him, not on the women.

DaMoshe
Do you have a source for R’ Breuer’s writing?

Da’Moshe had an excellent point regarding the underlying assumption of this thread that any comingling of the genders at chassanahs will lead pritzus, raise issues of tzinius and giluye arroyos etc. He notes that
Rav Yosef Breuer, ztz”l (and some other chashuve rabbonim not all of whom were Yekeshe) strongly opposed to the practice of separate seating at chassanahs. He correctly noted this was a relatively new Americaneshe minhag and was not the practice in the alte heim where perhaps except for certain chassideshe courts mixed seating had been the general practice in Eastern Europe. The Yekkishe practice. was to have four married couples to a circular table (withno man sat next to another’s wife and with singles deliberately mixed so that young men and women could socialize with each other.

Given that the fundamental biological, hormonal and yetzer harah DNA cannot have changed so quickly, If it was good enough for the Alte Heim, why is it not good enough for chashuve askanim like Joe??

The story is told about Rav Apron Soloveichik Z’tl, who responded to a shaylah from either his gabbai (or some talmidim) who said he/they had gone to a friend’s wedding and was surprised that there was mixed seating for the singles attending and what should he/they do in the future when those circumstances arose.. According to the telling of this story, the Rav sighed, and said something along the lines of, “Oy vey – how do you think I met Ella?” I’ve heard numerous variations of similar stories attributed to various rabbonim who were both makil and machmir on this issue with the R’ Breuer/Yekeshe practice at one end of the spectrum and the more mainstream Chassidus at the other end….

Snagged: Were you there?

Gadolhadorah
R AS isn’t Rav Breuer, although neither of those ascribe to the haskafa in either Skype my grandparents had.

Snagged
The question isn’t if this occurred, the question is, is this something to aspire to do. Would Rav Moshe continue this practice in the 80s? After Woodstock?
I think this would be a good question to ask RD or RF, as his children, to explain their father’s thinking. If anyone on this fourm it’s close to them, I think this would be a worthwhile question.

Regardless, our own Rabbi today are very against this practice. This entire conversation is important as intellectual exercise, not for actual practice.

I’m sure the atmosphere at Yekkishe weddings was a lot more restrained than what is commonplace at our Simchos. I’m sure they must have had a mechitza for the dancing. Rav Breuer is not around now to see our current weddings, we don’t know what he would say now. We have to rely on the Rabonim of our generation and I haven’t seen anyone quoting them in favor of mixed seating for singles or couples. Unfortunately many married women dress more provocatively than the singles; long and or attractive wigs, high heels, tightly fitted/short/striking clothing. These halachos restricting kalus rosh etc. between genders are clearly spelled out in Shulchan Aruch Even Haezer and are not modern day chumros.

DaMoshe hit the nail exactly on the head.

this is a unique Concept in this last generationonly… The idea of making sure that young men and women never, ever meet. In my parents generation, Orthodox, yes, Orthodox synagogues had a single dances so that couple’s might meet, Mary and build Jewish homes. In this generation, we are doing everything possible to prevent Jewish homes from ever being built.I understand that allowing men and women to meet might, heaven forbid, lead to something like men and women talking to each other…which might lead to mixed marriage lo aleinu! all that the extreme separation has done is helped perpetuate the shudduch crisis.

So what should you do? Make an announcement that asks MORE single young men and women to cross the mechitza.

quietmedic: R’ Moshe was very much against those dances as was R’ Elchonon when he visited America in 1938.

There are no mechitzos in the grocery stores with tight isles; @ pta in the schools; in doctor’s offices. why all the fuss

quietmedic:

It used to be that woman were much more covered and tznius.

Also (single) men didn’t go out with giant “bloris”s in the good old days.

The shopping bag idea is fantastic! And may work perfectly at chasunas, just so long as there is modesty and uniformity amongst and between the bags.

Nowadays, shopping bags vary. They may have store names printed in red. Or be made of bright colors. So one must ensure that the shopping bags, alone, are tznius before women place them on their heads.

Golfer A+++++++++++++++ 🙂

Sheino Yodeia Lishol: “There are no mechitzos in the grocery stores with tight isles; @ pta in the schools; in doctor’s offices. why all the fuss ”

there are in certain places- I have been to medical clinics in chasidish neighborhood that in addition to the regular seating, have a separate area that men can sit with a curtain around the area. And there are grocery stores with separate hours for men and women- (I have yet to see an island, tight or not, in a grocery store- but they do have aisles). And I am sure that in the chasidishe school system, Tatties go to meet the boys’ Rebbes, and the Mommies, to the girls’ teachers.

Warrior only the rebbish do that

y do u need the attention

Thats our nature something men will never understand just as we girls don’t understand the guard your eyes issues. To us its that simple if the Torah prohibits you to look at us when we are very not tznius just don’t look. Its that simple how hard can it be

“To us its that simple if the Torah prohibits you to look at us when we are very not tznius just don’t look. Its that simple how hard can it be”

Huh? Have you ever tried to not look at something? Let alone a lot of somebodies.

Modesty – it sounds like you’re very self aware and sincere in your desire to change. Hashem leads us in the way we want to go.

Could you elaborate on what you said above about girls wanting to dress not tzniusly for themselves not others. Does this mean if a girl is home for the day and not going out sue will want to dress up and put on makeup and walk around the house in high heels? Id think she’s putting all this time effort and discomfort to attract attention from others. Now what kind of attention does one get by wearing tight short clothes that accentuate her figure? I think I understand that it’s about the feeling I get when I get attention. And my intention isn’t to caused others to do aveiros. But it’s the inconvenient reality that it does place a stumbling block before others by making them want to look and encouraging others to dress in the same way.

Also can’t a man claim the same thing? It’s not that I want her to do any aveiros it’s just that I like looking? But it’s assur so you can’t. Just as it’s assure to dress that way.