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BS”D
I just realized that a lid for a smaller size microwave container landed in one of the larger containers I bought today. It is 98% the store’s fault as they display the different sized containers and lids in a chaotic manner, and neither I nor the cashier saw the lid.
The owners of the store are oivdai avoida zoro mamash according to just about any opinion.
Since I need a smaller container in any case, I plan to buy one without the lid when I go back to the store later in the week for my usual mid-week purchases (it is my local supermarket).
Al pi halacha, am I obligated to make good in any way for an error that was clearly not my responsibility to catch? Would it matter if I did not get any benefit from that extra lid without a container? For a real catch – does it matter that this store has inadvertently sold me more than the value of the smaller container’s worth of unusable, defective merchandise on another occasion?
This is a serious halachic discussion – I’ve decided what I am going to do anyway, but I’m interested in what halachic sources say I should do.
No. Since they are ovdei a”z you need not take any corrective action. (In fact, it may even be halachicly assur to take corrective action since it benefits ovdei a”z.) This is based on the presumption there is no likelihood of them realizing their error.
“This is a serious halachic discussion – I’ve decided what I am going to do anyway, but I’m interested in what halachic sources say I should do.”
So, why do you ask?
If they are real Ovdei Avodah Zarah (assuming Catholic) then it was Assur for you to buy from them on a Sunday.
If it assur to return, why wasn’t it assur to buy in the first place?
How do you know Asians are “Oved Ovedei Avodah Zarah”. Plenty of asians are christians and not buddists.
Maybe they are greek orthodox or russian orthodox, & hence we are within 2 days of their idolatry holiday of the greek & russian xmas.
But penultimately, forward all your questions to the Institute of Business & Halocho, which is the only forum to handle such matters, and as a matter of courtesy, let the coffee room know what they Paskan for you?
TheBearisBack my apologies but sometimes over the internet it is hard to figure out what’s behind a post.
Since this is not a beis midrash but, after all, a coffeeroom, I’ll take the liberty to write. I am female, I go shopping 🙂 I was taught that even people who have deities etc. normally we don’t treat like ovdei avodah zarah as long as they have some idea (possibly very distorted) that good is different from bad and that good is preferable to bad. Thus, if we see a pagan nazi y”sh etc etc, but for just about everyone else (hindu, catholics etc) we stop, try to help and call 911 even in the middle of nowhere. For a mistake like that or extra change, and where the mistake is absolutely not ours, I believe we keep and say nothing. We can return the extra item or extra money or offer to pay the lid, if doing so gives monetary gain (e.g. expected discounts in future) or good-name gain which is larger than the price of the lid (or extra change, or whatever). I believe it is assur to return the lid to the nonjew, regardless of their religion or lack thereof, because it makes us feel good to do so.
Bear: It’s the Lifnei Eideihem, Kal V’chomer Eideihem Atzman. The Rambam (in the uncensored editions) Paskened (based on the Gemara) that Sunday is a Christian holiday. Therefore, it’s Assur to ever do business with Catholics in Eretz Yisrael, where the Din of Lifnei Eideihem still applies.
Someone once asked a Rav what was the Zmanim for the land of the Midnight sun, The Rav told him the halacha was for him to not be there and to leave ASAP.
If you are so concerned about dealing with Buddists, dont be in that country. Leave ASAP then you wont have this problem.
zsdad: A Christian country is not much better. You need to move to a Muslim country, as that isn’t a”z (unlike Christianity.)
Would you make a kiddush Hashem by returning it?
Christianity is not monolithic. Much of Halacha on it is based on Catholicsm which is because jews lived mostly in catholic countries
However the US is a Protestant country (regarless who lives in NY area which is mostly catholic) and many Protestants have different beliefs especially the larger ones in the US Southern Baptist and Methodist. They do not have icons. Some dont even believe in the trinity (Unitarinism)
Of course you need to return. Even goyim don’t hold by theft. Can you find one gadol who when asked such a question ever approved of shoplifting. And that’s without getting into the question of creating a Kiddush ha-Shem be Rabim.
my ruv says you return it whether the person is an oveyd a”z or a jew or anything else.
Bear: I don’t precisely remember all of the details. But there are Kulas in CHU”L because we assume those Goyim are just Minhag Avoseihem and not Ovdei A”Z Mamash. It’s all in the Rambam Perek 4 or 5 from Avodah Zarah. I think we say that in CHU”L it’s only Assur on Eideihem and in E”Y it’s 3 days before+3 days after, which makes Catholics always a problem. Also, R’ Moshe has his very important T’shuvah that a priest/missionary/someone who is clearly very into his religion counts as an Oved A”Z Mamash even in CHU”L.
Akuperma, shoplifting?! Theft??!! there is not even the shadow of shoplifting. The clerk gave an extra lid which passed unnoticed, or at least, so thinks TheBearIsBack. The OP doesn’t even care for the lid, but it’s now in his possession. He is totally willing to give it back in the case it’s proper to do so (suppose a very contrived scenario in which the lid is really owned by a yid who did not give up on it and it ended up there?) He is willing to give it back to the nonjew if appropriate. BUT, what you probably don’t realize is that, if he does want to give it back (say he wants to show the shop what a Yid is like and make a kiddush Hashem) it’s not just a matter of a few seconds or a few cents, here is what likely he has to do. Go to the closest internet cafe, open some random webpage, ask around who speaks some english. Ask who is willing to do you a favour, and request that they write “Dear shop owner, this was in my bag by mistake, I only realized at home. I did not use, is clean. I return. Pleasure to buy at your shop. Thank you.” Make sure they understand what you have told them. Take the paper and thank for their bother, and pay something to the boy. Pay the internet shop for the service you did not want nor care for. Go to the shop with your piece of paper, go to the cashier and hand out the lid and the paper. Watch the employee call someone else to make sure they understood and watch the three or four of them discuss (in the meanwhile, unpaid time flies). And then who knows? May be it turns out that there is a SPECIAL, buy large container with lid, get small lid for free, the lids which were unavailable the previous month and customers were mad, so the manager suggested “special offer”!!!
OK if someone wants to do – fine – but I don’t think you can say that keeping the lid amounts to shoplifting.
TheBearIsBack please explain what is a yukel. I’d keep the lid and enjoy it.
It does not make a K’H by disparaging someone else belifs in a public forum. You dont have to like other belifs and you can strongly disagree with them, but dont post them on a public forum, say so at your private table
It actually IS a Kiddush Hashem to publicly disparage others beliefs in avoda zora.
So what Gadol says its OK to dispage Buddaism in a public forum that will likely backfire and make jews look bad.
I was in shoprite last week and I saw a frum woman put extra strawberries in her container from another container. I was waiting by customer service when I saw this, and so many others probably saw this theivery. I was very upset. I should have gone over to the woman and told her that she was doing ganiva.
ZD,
That doesn’t make it a C”H, although it might be unwise.
It is a C”H, it’s a jew stealing, and so many people think of us like this already.
Oh come on. I may be a yukel but I had never heard the word yukel before. Kol HaKavod to Asians who read here and who are fluent in yiddish, they sure are smart enough to frame the discussion. BTW I just asked someone and i was told budhu means naive, it is not flattering but not an insulting word either. It is more like “naive” or “foolish” than like “stupid” or “idiot”. The lady with the strawberries, assuming she did not fill a basket which had been half-emptied by previous thieves (in which case it is proper to ask an employee to do, or go to the cashier) is outright geneiva, why do some feel the need to badmouth and post something totally unrelated? She is a bad woman and stay away from her.
Buddaism and the especially Dali Lama actually have a following in the united States and those people read very good english.
This website site actually has quite a large lurking population and people quote it all the time especially the negative comments.
zsdad: Which external sites quote the coffee room?
Ive seen it on many blogs, and they take the most outrageous statements. You can google and find some. (They also do it to VIN as well)
As far as OP goes you dont go into someones house and spit at them, If you dont like their house, dont go it and you wont need to spit
zsdad: You are referring to blogs by Jews not Gentiles, correct?
Zahavasdad, if they really want to, they can do it very conveniently with, say, English translations of the Talmud which in our days are promptly available. We should keep discussion on topic: the OP is in Asia, he buys at a shop, and storing his shopping at home, he finds himself with an extra item along with whatever he meant to buy.
Even in the Yeshiva world one is required to be respectful and courteous
One does not discuss practical Halacha in an internet chat room
One discusses pratical halacha with his own LOR
Ok Joseph
ZD,
One doesn’t pasken from the CR, but one can discuss.
I agree we can discuss ,
some are scared of the wild animals and some arent
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