Inaccurate things we learned as kids

Patur, you should be able to find a string of text

unique to that page to post here, but you needn’t

bother. Just tell me if any of them say “Nishtanu

hat’va’im,” or state categorically that there are

exactly 613 seeds in all healthy pomegranates.

Patur Aval Assur, sorry about the late reply. My mother 🙂 and her brother counted the seeds and found it to be true. I have no idea which variety it is. Also many heirloom fruits and vegetables are cross bred now and aren’t true breeds, so it may not be true anymore.

SaraCFL:

No need to apologize. But can you clarify? Are you saying that your mother and brother counted one pomegranate and it had exactly 613 seeds? Are you saying that they counted many pomegranates and consistently found that they had exactly 613 seeds? I personally have counted several pomegranates and never found one with 613 seeds. Also, even within a specific variety, there are always different sizes. It does not seem particularly logical that there could be a variety in which every pomegranate has the same amount of seeds, because there isn’t any variety in which all the pomegranates are the same size. Now it could be that within one variety, all the pomegranates are somewhat similar and therefore there could be a variety in which the average pomegranate has 613 seeds, but as I pointed out to Sam2, there wouldn’t be any way to determine that. If you counted 1000 pomegranates and came up with an average of 613 seeds, you could just count one more pomegranate and the average could change to 614 seeds. Now it’s also possible that the rabbinic statements about pomegranate seeds, were not intending to be so precise; in other words they simply meant that there are around 613 seeds, perhaps say, as range of 550-650. It’s possible, but it would be severely limiting their statements to an approximation about one variety. And I still wouldn’t be sure if that could be, because it’s possible that even within a variety there is a big range of size. In the pomegranates I have counted, I have gotten some closer to 600 and some closer to 1000. Now I don’t know if they were all the same variety, so I am speculating somewhat.

I heard from my teacher that it is wrong to count the seeds of a pomegranate and that they do have exactly 613 seeds. But there is no reason to believe that they do. And I have counted and never found 613.

“If it were really Assur, I have a hard time believing that this, alone among all of Hilchos Lashon Hara, would have slipped the attention of the CC.”

Catch Yourself – +1. I was debating if I should point that out on another thread or not. Glad you did.

catch yourself, I’m not exactly sure why you are addressing me with a clarification of my own point. I did not say it happened or didn’t happen, I was saying that if someone wants to bring out a halach of the Chofetz Chaim using a tone that would not have been approved of by the Chofetz Chaim, it loses it’s ‘stand alone’ validity and will need to be looked into.

Whether or not it is in the safer is another issue.

29:

“The chofetz Chaim said you cannot speak l”h about yourself” – (Moderator’s Comment in the OP of the other thread; granted I don’t know which Mod)

“Moderator :The chofetz Chaim said you cannot speak l”h about yourself

Wrong.

My 9th grade rebbi, who was born in 1934 and named after the chofetz Chaim,

said the chofetz Chaim

meant that with a touch of humour and as advice

Dare to find it anywhere in his sefer” – (It Is Time For Truth)

“I don’t know what works for you in real life, but if you have a halacha or Torah matter to teach me, I am all ears and thrilled to hear it. If you have to end it with a threat, I have to assume you haven’t read the Chofetz Chaim often enough to be relied upon.

I will look into your tale.” – (Moderator 29)

It certainly sounds to me that your point was that the established Halacha is that it is Assur to speak LH about yourself, but that you would look into IITFT’s “tale” to the contrary. All I was saying is that, in fact, it is the other way around.

If I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying.

Either way, I don’t think “Dare to find it in the Sefer” is a threat, or an offensive way of making a point. I actually think it’s pretty tame by the standard of typical Beis Medrash banter.

Perhaps women need to learn to accept the way things are spoken in the beis medrash.

re: Pomegranates

The actual statement of the Gemara is that “????? ??? ????? ????? ?????,” which means, “The empty ones among you (K’lal Yisrael) are full of Mitzvos like a pomegranate [is full of seeds].”

I always thought the clear implication is that a pomegranate, while full of seeds, falls short of 613.

re: Mordechai and Esther

I love The Purim (urim) Story (ory), but even they were a bit confused on this point. When Esther is about to be abducted by Sir Toe-Face, she calls to “Cousin Mordechai!” Only a few minutes later, in the song, she addresses, “Uncle Mordechai.” Later, when debating whether to go to Achashveirosh, she again sings to “Uncle of mine.”

There is no source for the idea that Mordechai was Esther’s uncle (which would actually not preclude him from being her cousin as well).

Of course, there is no one person for whom it is possible to perform all 613 Mitzvos. This question is classic Shabbos Derasha fodder, and has been dealt with by countless Meforshim. Whatever the specific answer, the general idea is that it is possible to be considered as having performed all Mitzvos (and even rewarded as such), including those which can not apply to you.

In any case, you would make my point even stronger. If even the “Milayim” of K’lal Yisrael fall short of 613, there is no reason at all to infer that the pomegranate has that number of seeds.

See next post for a completely different theory about the whole pomegranate-Mitzvos connection.

By the way, Randomex: “Does anyone else remember being taught that Yosef’s dream was of bundles of wheat in a field, with all the bundles bowing to one bundle?”

This is precisely how the dream is described in the Pesukim (plus the detail that it was Yosef and his brothers who were bundling the grain). I assume I must have misunderstood you.

I was taught as a kid that everyone has worth. Today I know that to be a lie.

The Wolf

Everything does have worth. It’s not a lie.

You’re entitled to your opinion.

The Wolf

nothing to do with the Chofetz Chaim

Not specifically… and please allow me to state publicly and make unambiguously clear that anything I state (unless I explicitly make the point otherwise) applies to me and only to me. Not to my wife, my kids, my extended family and certainly not to strangers on the internet whom I never met and have absolutely no way of saying if they are good, evil or anywhere in between.

What do you think doesn’t have worth?

The above being said, the answer is me.

The Wolf

I’m sure your wife doesn’t agree. Or your kids. Or your friends.

Last Mishna in Horayos, “???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????.”

Wolf, you can’t be serious. Every person is infinitely valuable. Every choice you make has the potential to determine the fate of the entire world. Not to mention that, as LU pointed out, you are not worthless but invaluable to your wife, children and friends. To the people whom you hold most dear, your own worth can not be overstated.

Wolf… have you spoken to a professional in the behavioral health field about your feelings?

Huh? I don’t understand. You think me a horrible father because I give my adult kids a small amount of low-alcohol wine for shabbos (despite setting a good example to them about sobriety and responsible drinking) but now you’re concerned about me?

The Wolf

Golfer – thank you very much for your kind words. While I am not sure I agree with what you are saying about Wolf (and don’t want to get into it), it does help me to gain some perspective on other things that have been going on in the CR which I have been having a hard time grasping. So thank you for that.

That being said, I don’t believe that anyone is ever really completely “playing games” per se’ in the sense that everything comes from somewhere, and there is always something real behind what may seem like a “game”. At least that is how I have always looked at things, but I could be wrong.

This thread has changed topic unfortunately, and I hope for everyone’s sake, that we find a way to get back to the more lighthearted spirit of the thread.

That being said, I do have a comment that is both an innacurate thing we [may have] learned as kids, as well as my 2 cents regarding a person’s inherent value. It really deserves a thread all of its own:

Many people, some of whom I am very close to, were taught as kids that they in fact do not have worth. It could have been through direct emotionally abusive statements, or indirectly, by implication, as their primary caregivers gave that message in their invalidating interactions.

As disturbing and untrue that belief may be, it is sadly at the heart of emotional difficulties for many people. What we are taught as kids on this topic is critical to our development. We BELIEVE our primary caregivers, because they are the initial providers of our realities.

It can take a lifetime of therapy to challenge such a destructive belief successfully. Logic, or proofs from the Torah are usually not enough to override such a deeply ingrained handicap. It is incredibly powerful. Even sadder, this belief, when expressed to, or perceived by others, often results in rejection. It’s not pleasant to be around someone who constantly puts themselves down. And so the negative belief develops into a life in which it is routinely reinforced as the truth!

If your early life experience gave you a message that you have worth just because you exist, do not take that lightly. It is something to be very grateful for. Not everyone received that message.

Only Hashem knows why some people are given this nisayon, which impacts almost every interaction they experience.

There is help out there. It takes a lot for a person to even recognize that what they consider a fact, is really an unfortunate learned belief, and it may be helped with therapy.

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<attempt at topic redirection>

“reprinted” from another thread,

Inaccurate thing:

a bungalow colony is called a country!

There are currently a number of community based telephone directories that are distributed in certain areas of Brooklyn. They are for-profit publications supported by commercial listings. There is usually an attempt to include a reference section, with random useful information. In one of these directories, a section for the Catskills is included. One of the lists in this section is titled – I couldn’t make this up – Camps, Mikvas, and Countries!!!

</attempt at topic redirection>

Ubiquitin – Thanks for the correction. I just looked it up and it’s the SA I was quoting, not the MB.

In terms of the “very clearly” part, I was referring to the fact that the two foods don’t have to be different brachos. The SA mentions two portions of meat, & since two portions of meat have the same bracha, it is “very clear” that the two foods can have the same bracha.

The words “very clearly” were really going on “and not two brachos” and not on “two different types of food”. I had not realized that he writes “portions” and not “types”, or I would have worded my post more accurately. My point remains true though, even if it wasn’t phrased correctly. My point was that “??? ???? ???” cant possibly mean 2 different brachos, although it can and does (at least according to most Poskim we follow, according to what I was taught) mean two types of food.

Thank you for your corrections. It’s nice to know someone is reading and paying attention to my posts.

Seems to me that you didn’t just invoke Godwin’s Law, you fulfilled it.

Al Gore has a negative carbon footprint. This is not because he doesn’t use any carbon, but because he contributes more carbon to the system than he uses.

In much the same way, I think Hitler had a net negative worth – whatever value he held for the people who cared about him was negated by, you know, the rest of the story.

I don’t think this is true for nearly anyone else – certainly not for a person who identifies as an ???? ???. [Please note I did not say ??? ???.]

In any case, even a Rasha has a role in bringing about K’vod Shamayim.

?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???

Hitler had worth in the sense that he was a tool that Hashem used for His purpose.

WolfishMusings,

At the risk of invoking Godwin’s Law, then even Hitler had worth.

You already preemptively resolved this question above:

I grant the point that even a rasha gamur can have worth.

To quote Arthur Conan Doyle in The Hound of the Baskervilles:

To all the world he was the man of violence, half animal and half demon; but to her he always remained the little wilful boy of her own girlhood, the child who had clung to her hand. Evil indeed is the man who has not one woman to mourn him.

Okay,I figured out what tautology must mean and I looked it up to be sure.

But this is not a tautology because I was talking about what you already know. You already know that your wife and kids have worth (unlike hitler yemach shemo, l’havdil). Not only that, but you know that they have a lot of worth. If such worthy individuals consider you to be a very worthwhile individual, then you clearly are.

iacisrmma, do you know where that came from? And why do most people go around quoting a midrash (if it is that) rather than a direct line from the megilla?

My son brought home a Purim crossword. One clue was “Esther’s uncle”.

I have always wondered if the “2 brachos” myth started because it can be hard to figure out what constitutes 2 types of food in some cases (such as meat, chocolate, or cookies). Perhaps this was even more true in the older days when people weren’t picking up processed foods in the supermarket and were sending things like meat.