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aimhabonim – i happen to have known all those sources, but if you look at ??”? ?? ????? you’ll notice he says their job was to FORTIFY the quicksand [or whatever else it was], not to build on it so that their buildings crumbled.
yaff80-
I DID ask her if she meant a gemora or medrash, but my daughter insisted her morah said it was a moshul and that she didn’t REALLY grow a tail..
OK- So I have a question:
What is this story about the Chofetz Chaim and talking loshon hara about yourself? It was mentioned a few times at the beginning of this thread. I thought someone might actually tell the story here but nobody did. So I’m really curious.
Also, btw – It does say in the book “Guard your Tongue” that talking about yourself IS loshon hara. Why did someone here (not looking back right now to see which poster) say that it’s not true-that he never said it?
You are not allowed to touch muktzah items on shabbos.
There’s actually a gemara Yerushalmi which says that (not clear if it only means when the object will move).
It was something to the effect that the chofetz Chaim was on a train and he went over to 2 ppl and started bashing himself, and they didnt know that he was the chofetz Chaim but got really mad that this person was speaking loshon harah about the chofetz chaim. So the chofetz Chaim realized its bad to talk loshon harah about oneself
kfb; oh yeah. i takkeh remember hearing the story. but something must be missing cuz i have a lot of questions about how that connects. also what was the purpose of the Chofetz Chaim bashing himself? Was he testing the 2 ppl to see if they’re mekabel lashon hara? I don’t know. It just sounds funny.
Gefen: The Chofetz Chaim was on his way to a city to speak and he met a fellow Jew on the train. he asked the other fellow why he was traveling. The guy said that he was going to hear the holy Chofetz Chaim and he continued to praise the Chofetz Chaim. This made the Chofetz Chaim uncomfortable so he put himself down. The other guy got very upset at this seeming breach of Kavod for the Chofetz Chaim so he hit the Chofetz Chaim and the Chofetz Chaim was forced to deliver his Drasha with a black eye. That’s the story they tell, anyway. I’m sure a more accurate version is written down somewhere, possibly in the Sefer Chofetz Chaim itself.
we go to tashlich
we go to tashlich
to throw our aveiros away
Somebody mentioned taking 3 steps during “Hashem sfasai”. I’m surprised nobody mentioned the jumping 3 times at end of shmona esrei.
How about
1- “Brush now, burn later”?
If we brush our hair on Shabbos, we’ll burn in Gehenom.
2- “Anyone who doesnt marry a learning boy, is living an inferior Goyishe life”… “If you make up your mind to do it, you can”,
quotes from Bais Yaakov teachers in Brooklyn, potentially causing nightmares and divorce.
Mod42 that is actually something I was taught inr ecent years. We all would do a version of “Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh,” at the end of Shemonah Esrai after bowing to the right, left, and front, and no one knew why. We just did it. The three steps back and then three forward at the beginning of the davening, we were taught, was that in order to approach Hashem kivyachol, we had to first take three steps back, then go forward.
Mod 42- I don’t think that that was TAUGHT, I think people made that one up on their own. but, yeah, that is so common it’s bizzare.
pcoz- That song our morahs taught us is taken from Uncle Moishe. You can’t touch that, it’s mesorah. Anything from Uncle Moishe can not have a pircho, otherwise you will be destroying our very foundation upon which everything we ever learned emenates from.
Mod 42: I’ve thought about that for a long time, and I think I know where that Minhag comes from. The Halacha is technically that one should (Min Hamuvchar, if someone’s tired or has to get something or whatever there are three levels) wait until Kedusha to take their three steps forward. Also, Nekadesh was originally an introductory line by the Chazzan (at some point the Minhag changed to make it part of Kedusha). Thus, people would take their three steps forward right into Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh.
Oomis: The left, right, and forward thing is I believe mentioned in Sefer Chassidim (but I could be mistaken, he might only mention that you need to bow while taking 3 steps back). And it’s clear in the Shulchan Aruch that you need to take 3 steps forward before starting Shmoneh Esrei. My point was that it has to be before you start, not during the words “Hashem D’fasai Tiftach”.
BaalHabooze: I once had a Rebbe who taught us that Unlce Moishy’s “Hashem is here, Hashem is there…” song is a violation of the Ikkar of the incorporeality of HKBH.
Regarding pomegranates, I have counted many a pomegranate, and I’ve never gotten one with 613 seeds. However there are several sources that say that there are 613 seeds:
Derashos Chasam Sofer volume 2 ??? ????? ???”?:
????”? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ???”? ??????’ ??? ???”? ????
Malbim Shir Hashirim 4:3:
???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???”? ???????
Lachmei Todah ????? ?”? ???? ???”?:
?????? ?”? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???”? ?????? ????? ???”? ????
Eitz Yosef Shir Hashirim Rabbah 4:3:
???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???”? ??????? ??? ???”? ?????
Niflaos Hatiferes Shlomo Ose 225:
????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ???”? ???????
Yosef Be’ohr Al Megillas Shir Hashirim 4:3:
???????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???”? ??????’ ????”? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???
All these sources are from the past couple of hundred years. I have yet to find any earlier source. Which is interesting because none of these sources are quoting each other (except for perhaps the last one) so it seems as if there was some sort of earlier source or tradition.
Regarding the Chofetz Chaim, there is a version of the story in the biography written by his son. I will hopefully post the quote later.
Here’s the story as quoted by the Chofetz Chaim’s son:
Sichos HaChofetz Chaim ose 53:
?????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???
See my next post…
In Shu”t Benei Banim (3:18), R’ Y.Y. Henkin quotes the story:
????? ??? ??? ?? ???????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???
??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??”? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????????
??”?
Then he continues:
????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??”? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ???????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???
But I have a raya that you can say lashon hara about yourself.
Sefer Chofetz Chaim 1:9:
??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ????
Now if it is assur to say lashon hara about yourself, then including yourself in the g’nus wouldn’t make it better; it would make it worse because now you are saying lashon hara about two people.
However, one might respond that this is not a raya because perhaps the Chofetz Chaim is not bringing this up in terms of the etzem badness of the issur, but because you might think that if you include yourself in the g’nus then you are demonstrating that you don’t really view it as something so bad. (Though it would be odd that the Chofetz Chaim didn’t mention that now you made the issur worse.)
And anyway, the source for this halacha is the Yalkut Shimoni in Isaiah Remez 406 which says:
????? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????”? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???”? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?”? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????
I think it’s pretty clear from the medrash that speaking badly about himself was perfectly fine.
PAA: There’s a blog post floating around somewhere about the pomegranate thing and had some fascinating yet potentially irrelevant results from a study. Google for it.
Self-sabotage is very harmful.
The Gemara says that a person who looks at the hands of the Kohanim during birchas kohanim loses 1/500 of “ma’or einav” (commonly understood to mean eyesight).
Although the Shulchan Aruch rules that one may not touch a raw egg on Shabbos because it is muktzeh, nearly all commentators explain that this is because touching a raw egg is guaranteed to cause it to move.
IF the story is true, it would demonstrate that the Chofetz Chaim was of the opinion that it is in fact muttar to speak L”H about oneself, albeit perhaps not a good idea.
The Mishna Berura describes the procedure of the three steps back and the bowing towards the right, left and forward quite carefully.
Shechting a giraffe is forbidden. It’s illegal because they’re endangered.
Sam:
I’ve seen the study before as well as a couple of reviews of the study. Let’s just say the study doesn’t demonstrate anything. For a very simple reason. If you are computing the average number of seeds then by definition that means that different pomegranates have different amounts of seeds. Therefore the average will be based on how many pomegranates you use, and the size of the pomegranates you use. In other words, the one conducting the study controls the results. If I took two sets of a hundred pomegranates and figured out the average for each group, they would not be the same. So the average number of seeds in any group of pomegranates is essentially meaningless.
catch yourself: Are you sure? I thought it explicitly says lose eyesight. The 1/500th line you’re thinking of is about a P’siah Gasa.
heres a couple of crazy sings my teacher said:
its wrong to put up blown yom tov things on your lawn as the reason behind people doing it is they want to be like the non-jews (which is not true as my family does it and no were not coping the goyim)
also when theres a double adar you should only celebrate the 2 adar
Sam, is it really that simple to allow one to take three steps forward immediately? I was taught that the gemara speaks very strongly against it, using words I’d rather not quote…
Style: Without commenting on the particular case, Chukas Akum is not dependent on your personal intentions. Also, according to how we Pasken your teacher is probably right about Adar.
Ivdu: You don’t want to quote the Gemara? It says K’kelev Hashav Al Ki’o. Anyway, I’m not sure which post of mine you’re referring to. But the amount of time you are supposed to wait is approximately 2 seconds. It’s hard not to do that unless you’re trying to run forward really immediately, which I suppose is the point.
Another incorrect teaching:
3 matzot on Pesah for cohen, levy, and yisrael
Sorry about the name change this late in the game but this title has been bothering me from the get-go. Making a list of ‘all the things teachers say that isn’t true’ does not sound like an appropriate or b’kavodik attitude. It sounds like “things our teachers lied about”. After cringing several times I said to myself, “Hey, you’re a mod. Just change it!”
Thank you for your indulgence in this matter.
We’re grown ups now, it’s okay
Sam:
It turns out that the guy who did the study (Alexander Haubold) is apparently maskim:
“When I spoke to Haubold on June 5, 2008, he noted that he has counted hundreds more pomegranates since his initial experiment. He suggested that this most likely would change the average and that his web site should reflect the new information.”
– Rabbi Dr. Ari Z. Zivotofsky
Amirah leakum is okay as long as you hint it
Sam, I have no source unfortunately, as I learned this in Halacha and we only mentioned the Gemara outside. But at that time I learned (must be in the Kitzur, that’s what we used) that one must wait until Kedusha to step forward, and anything less is what the Gemara is referring to (unless there is an apparent very pressing need) I also heard this recently from someone else.
Ivdu: There are 3 levels. Super-Lechatchilah is at Kedushah. Next-level is when Chazaras HaShatz starts. And B’dieved is after about 2 seconds. That’s how the Achronim combine all the differences in the Rishonim (and you would have seen that in the Kitzur).
Sam, I stand corrected. Don’t know why I thought that – it must be my Rebbe’s fault, as 29 pointed out 🙂
For the record, many meforshim work with the p’shat that three matzos are to correspond with kohen, levi and yisrael, so I’m not sure why one would think it’s wrong.
As far as amirah l’akum, it is in fact true that r’miza is mutar, provided that the Jew derives no direct benefit from the melacha. For this reason, it is permitted to do r’miza to get the light turned off, but not to get it turned on.
In fact, even if there is direct benefit, the reason r’miza is not allowed is not amirah l’akum, but neh’neh m’mleches akum [when done expressly for the benefit of a Jew], which is prohibited even without r’miza.
lol I was told as a child that if I watched Birkat Kohanim my milk would dry up and I’d never be able to feed my babies. As for the pomegranate there is one verity that has 613 seeds the others (more common ones you’ll find in the stores) don’t.
Also that I had to stay away from the pool or Lileet and her children would catch me.
SaraCFL:
How do you know that there is one variety that actually has 613 seeds?
Incidentally, I just counted the seeds of a pomegranate and there were 937 (plus a few safek seeds). If you rearrange it, it’s 639 which is equivalent to 613 plus the Tetragrammaton.
I love the one about however high you hold your havdala candle, that’s how tall your husband will be (without his hat) :D. Also, what’s with “If you sit at the corner of the table, you won’t get married for seven years”? And why won’t people pass babies over the table?
I hold the candle at a different height every week.
Well, if you’re a male, married, or both, you don’t have to worry. If you’re neither, well, your chassan is going to be pretty mixed up. 😀
Women generally don’t make havdalah, which
makes that saying more puzzling.
PAA:
Maybe SaraCFL was just saying that that’s
what she was taught as a child?
And there I was thinking the pomegranate thing was a misconception
caused by taking “m’lei’in mitzvos k’rimon” a little too literally… (No one person can fulfill all 613 mitzvos, either.)
Let’s look at those sources:
“B’sheyodua,” “Al pi hayodua,” L’fi hanoda,” = Everybody knows. Do they? [shrug]
“In my youth, I heard that it is found in seforim” – What’s this thread’s (current) title?
“It is written in [a sefer] that he (that sefer’s author)
saw […] in seforim” – Slightly stronger,
but it’s still third-hand with anonymous original sources.
That leaves the Malbim. Can we say lav davka there?
Can anyone confirm that there exists any species of fruit
which always produces the same number (other than 1) of seeds? The whole idea doesn’t sound biologically plausible.
Comlink – Of course women don’t generally make havdala. The man does. And the kids fight over who gets to hold the candle, who held it last week, and at which point in Havdala they should switch over holding the candle because no-one can agree on who exactly held it last week.
Oh, right. Oops. 🙂 But kids aren’t very tall, so…
Why do you think I never held the candle as a kid? 😉
well, your chassan is going to be pretty mixed up.
I’m petty mixed up myself so it should be a good match.
Comlink-x:
If you want to see a lot more sources about the pomegranate, google: 613seedspomigranate
It results only in this very page.
EDIT: I tried again with spaces added. That worked better.
Don’t do it with spaces. As of yesterday, googling it without spaces brought one result, which is the list of sources. Somehow the fact that I mentioned it on this page seems to have befuddled google and they forgot the other page.
Moderators:
Perhaps you can delete that post
( http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/inaccurate-things-teachers-tell-us/page/2#post-550428 ) and then google will become unbefuddled?
Does anyone else remember being taught that Yosef’s dream was of bundles of wheat in a field, with all the bundles bowing to one bundle?
Sam, I quote the kitzur, (siman 18, se’if 13):
??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?????-???? ????? […] ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???????? ??????, ???? ??????? ?????-???? ?????
I don’t see the third level, could it be someone else mentions it?
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