Imposing too much hashkafa on BTs

50 cent came to Israel and changed his name to NIS 1.78.

Dash, if you were with her until she mentioned 50 Cent, you weren’t with her at all.

Takahmamash, legit LOL.

Vogue, most pop hashkafah is just blather concocted by people who wish to avoid the responsibility of thinking. I don’t know if you are smarter than that but at least you’re more likely to be than the people who create a hashkafah out of thin air and then assume that Hashem conforms to it.

It’s a constant problem in the yeshivish world that everyone has to pretend to be something they’re not. It guarantees that while people can be many things, one thing they cannot be is honest. For example, when I was in shidduchim, everyone knew that if you wanted to learn for a couple years, you would say, five years. If you wanted to learn for five years, you would say ten. If you wanted to learn for ten years, you’d say forever, etc. If you watched movies, you’d say you like to play ball, and if you liked to play ball but didn’t watch movies, you’d say you wanted to learn for ten years. That would be fine except that there are other interests that people have and the rules are not as neat for those things. If you wanted to portray yourself as being no-nonsense and straightforward, you were out of luck.

Vogue -A public school kid once asked me why Judaism has so many commandments, other religions are so much easier to keep? I answered by pointing out that the human brain is the most complex known thing in the universe, it has more connectors than the entire communications system on earth today, one human brain! We believe that the same G-d that created the brain gave the Torah, the instruction manual for the brain. What makes more sense a few easy to follow instructions or a complex, deep involved system? When it comes to music it is clear to everyone that there is good and bad music, and some has an amazing way to go deep into our brains. My advice is to be true to yourself and set borders, do not accept everything, but do not worry about detractors and ask for help from Above. Have a great Shabbos!

I think that people have to distinguish between the things that they FEEL are being asked and imposed of them, and the things that really are. If someone tells you how the Rebbitzin behaved and that you should strive for it, they weren’t meaning tomorrow. There are people that we need to look up to and consider leaders, and that doesn’t mean BEING them, in means using them as your guide and compass.

You have to monitor yourself and always be moving forward. There are plenty of people out there who are willing to accept people doing different things then them, if they themselves are respected for their levels as well. For example, if you are going to listen to 50 cents, please don’t do it while I am in the car with you. And don’t tell my kids that it’s really too bad they aren’t allowed to listen to it because they are missing out. See what I mean? It isn’t what you are DOING, it is what you are striving to be and how you present yourself.

And every day is a new day.

Vogue: You don’t need to be what anyone else tells you to be. You don’t need to marry a BMG guy or give up what you like

to please others

. [ATT MODS: I stink at the codes- can you correct this to either italics or underlining if I did it wrong? Thanks loads and gut voch!] If you decide on your own, for good reasons, that you don’t think that rap or reggae or what have you is good music for you to listen to, then you’ll find plenty of people who agree with you. There are many speakers, like Rabbi Nissel mentioned by ultimateskier, who may convince you. (Happens to be he didn’t really do it for me, but that’s a story for a whole different day. Everyone works differently.) But if you’re doing it for the peer pressure, then that just causes resentment. Like VM said, there is a lot of peer pressure that is absolutely not lesheim shamayim, peer pressure that is for completely the wrong motives and really destructive, as you’ve noticed for yourself. No real, true change can come from anywhere but within. There can be a spark from outside, but if you don’t feel an inner conviction, it won’t go anywhere.

The chumra-of-the-month club has many many actively recruiting members. When they try to send you this month’s new shipment, make sure they don’t hit your address.

I don’t listen to rap, and it’s just really not my style, but I’ve had people tell me that some things that I listen to weren’t kosher, such as (memorably) one respected rov who said that classical music was tamei. Maybe in twenty years I’ll see his point of view (I’m skeptical, but hey, you never know). Right now, though, if I tried to assimilate that perspective and stop listening to Mozart, I’d be a seething mass of disbelief and resentment (and that’s not a metaphor or hyperbole- ask anyone who knows me, that’s literally how I’d act) because that’s just not me and not how I think. It doesn’t matter how truly righteous and correct anyone’s opinion may be- until I really, truly buy it, it’s just a no go. But you know that already. Remember, nobody can “impose” hashkafa on you. Hashkafa is your viewpoint, and even two people looking at the same thing from the same location will by necessity see things slightly differently.

Vogue

As far as music goes rap is the worst stuff for your neshama. I have posted about this before but bekitzur it is horribly destructive and I personally saw a good friend go into a depression and end up off the derech almost exclusively from listening to rap music. It literally is poison for the soul. Not to mention that usually the people who make rap music are from the lowest dregs of society (some are murderers and rapists…) so you are putting their filthy soul into your pure holy soul. Please you have to give up the rap. It is definitely ruining you.

Vogue, “all you guys are doing is bashing me…”?!?

Clearly you can’t be bothered to read your responses.

Turn down the volume for 5 minutes and do us the favor of taking the time to read what we took the time to write.

I’m still confused. How would not listening to rap affect someone’s health in a negative way?

Vogue, no one is “beating up” on you. It’s possible that your own guilt feelings that are making you feel threatened.

Being asked to clarify what you said, or being challenged on an opinion you stated, is part of normal online communication.

Sorry that you feel you are being bashed. I am not going to bash you. I went through the same thing. Let’s start with a BT joke.

A BT goes to an Orthodox Rabbi and asks, “Do I need to say Hallel on Thanksgiving?” The Rabbi asks, “What’s Thanksgiving?” So the BT realizes that this Rabbi isn’t going to be able to posken this Shayla, so the BT goes back to the reform Rabbi he grew up with and asks her, “Do I need to say Hallel on Thanksgiving?” She says, “What’s Hallel?” (Hope that makes you feel a little better.)

Oomis made a good point, and asked a good question. Let me try to answer it.

The first principle of doing Tshuva is that it takes time. You can’t go from dancing in clubs one week to not listening to goyishe music the next. I met people who tried it, and a week after they stopped listening to the goyishe music, they were back in the clubs dancing. So the question is, “how long should it take me?” and the answer is it varies from person to person and from hashkafa to hashkafa. In other words, the first GOAL is to acknowledge that listening to the rap music is bad for your neshama. The second GOAL is to start listening less or going cold turkey or whatever works. and guess what’s going to happen after that? You’re going to get really upset about something one day and you’re going to start listening to it again. It’s a battle you will need to fight your whole life. I asked one of my Rebbeim about this once and he told me that as long as you are doing you’re best, then that’s all Hashem wants from you. The FFB’s can talk about this dress or that chumra, but remember 2 things. First they grew up listening to frum music. Second, most of their friends and relatives are doing it too. Because of that, it’s a lot easier for them. Cookie cutter works great when all your friends and relatives do it too. Don’t get upset at them if they can’t figure out why you listen to rap. It’s easy for them to avoid this. You can do yourself a big favor and hide the fact that you listen to this music from the frum public.

Oomis asks whether people who listen to rap are not part of frum society because frum society rejects rap music. Anyone who accepts that they’re not supposed to be listening to this music is just as frum as anybody else. Let me give an example. Is anyone who speaks loshon Hara not frum? Now the answer is obvious. We all speak loshon hara. If you accept that it’s wrong, then you are frum. If you think it’s O.K. to speak loshon hara, then you aren’t. My experience was that sooner or later an opportunity comes along to break the Yetzer Hara for listening to music (or speaking loshon Hara ). The question is how will you react to that opportunity. Will you say, “Wow, this is my big chance to break that bad habit?” For instance, Sefira or the three weeks can be golden opportunities to make progress from wherever you happen to be holding vis-a-vis goyishe music.

Therefore you probably shouldn’t marry an FFB. They’re probably not going to understand that you need to listen to rap. Even if they do, their families won’t. They struggle with different challenges than we do.

Here’s one more thing that worked for me. When I became frum, I decided to NEVER accept any Chumras. Zero. Even though there are plenty of chumras that I keep, I always do it Bli Neder. I keep Chumras because I find myself in the company of other people who are doing them. I do it to fit in. To use this approach, you need to know what the halacha requires you to do and where the halacha ends and where the chumra begins. And that is another project that you will need to work on for the rest of your life – clarifying what the halacha says about everything from rap music to black stockings. It definitely helps to have somebody to ask. If you don’t have a Rabbi, then call Lisa at the N’vei Yerushalyim office in New York. (I assume you’re in New York.) She’s very open and accepting. She can be your support system temporarily while she finds a different Rav for you.

Anyways, I admire you for wanting to do the right thing.

Thanks, oomis!

I didn’t like the suggestion that a BT and an FFB shouldn’t marry. We have enough phobias and and biases clogging up the shidduch pipeline without adding another one. Especially one that doesn’t make sense (in most instances).

But I couldn’t post my disapproval with the credibility you bring to the table by having (GASP!) actually gone ahead and married a BT. I’m sure the 2 of you have a beautiful home. And hope you continue to enjoy a wonderful marriage for many years to come.

Truebt, if you are what your name claims, is it possible there’s a little reverse discrimination going on here? Are you sure you want to lump all FFB husbands and mothers-in-law into one intolerant, intransigent group?

Vogue: You are right there are many FFB’s who have grown up with non- jewish music and tv. Our point is don’t let others dictate to you what your level of growth is or where you should be holding.

TRUEBT and Oosmis made good points. Find your self a rav, and grow at your own point. There is no issur against non-jewish music most of us just feel that it is not good for your neshoma.

There is nothing wrong with a BT marrying an FFB or vice versa. Everyone has different challenges but that does not mean that we cannot be accepting of other peoples challanges.

Dina

Also, I’d like to give you some advice regarding rap music. PLEASE – don’t take this as bashing you because if you know where I came from you’d know I’m not judging you at all. I came from a very far off family (not even Reform) and used to be obsessed with rap. Before I had ever even heard the words “Shabbat” or “Pesach” I already knew every single Cypress Hill album “Baal Peh” as well as multiple NWA, Ice Cube and Snoop Dogg albums and others (while I was doing t’shuva in college I’d tuck in my tzitzit and put on a baseball cap and go to concerts like Ice Cube). As much as you like rap, I’m pretty sure I probably liked it more than you. I understand what a HUGE struggle it is to not listen to non-Jewish music because in my opinion most frum music sucks by comparison and it’s taken me years to finally find some cd’s/bands of Jewish music I actually like better than the non-Jewish stuff.

I’m really sorry if it sounds like I’m giving you mussar because I don’t mean it to come off as that but also as a girl you should seriously think of how these lyrics treat women. As a girl, in rap you are treated as nothing better than a filthy animal whose soul purpose is to debase yourself for someone’s physical pleasure and to get called horrible names in the process. Music, whether Jewish or not, touches a very deep spiritual place in us and affects our attitude. After listening to rap I feel more aggressive, angry, and full of taivos. I’m not sure how it makes you feel as a girl but the subliminal message of teaching you to just make your self a meat-stick def isn’t spiritually healthy. So don’t do it because your teachers say so, or even because I do, but for your own neshama’s sake try looking into cleaner music. Maybe you could find something with similar beats but fewer or no lyrics. Like I said, there is much good Jewish music out there, and basically no good Jewish rap, but it’s worth the struggle. Try learning the 3rd lesson in Lekutei Moharan for a deeper look into how music affects us spiritually.

And hope you continue to enjoy a wonderful marriage for many years to come. “

Amein and thank you very much for that wonderful bracha!

TrueBT – I reiterate, FFB and their mishpachos come in ALL types, from the very machmir Yeshivish, to Modern frum who keep Shabbos, KAshrus, Taharas Hamishpacha, daven every day, AND ALSO LISTEN TO SECULAR MUSIC OF EVERY TYPE. They will not discriminate against a sincere BT for listening to music that OTHER types of frum Jews find inappropriate. There are many shades of gray and we are not so elitist that we have the right to disparage someone who is an observant Jew.

Because I personally dislike it, I do not particularly endorse rap music for ANYBODY, Jew or not Jew, though certain types of it are catchy, and like anything else, can be used to elevate or lower us. We should not be negatively judgmental of someone who is in transition and enjoys this. My husband used to love to listen to Motown music (me, not so much, it’s not my thing). Both of us like the beat of Reggae music. Al taam v’rayach ein l’hitvakayach.

I’m really sorry if it sounds like I’m giving you mussar because I don’t mean it to come off as that but also as a girl you should seriously think of how these lyrics treat women. As a girl, in rap you are treated as nothing better than a filthy animal whose soul purpose is to debase yourself for someone’s physical pleasure and to get called horrible names in the process. Music, whether Jewish or not, touches a very deep spiritual place in us and affects our attitude.”

VERY well-expressed, Assurnet.This is my main criticism of this type of “music,” also. And the last sentence should be re-read.

Vogue

I know someone who upon swallowing sweetened poison he focuses on the taste not the poison. For some he just keeps ending up in the emergency room.

zd: I had a post saying the same thing. I wonder what happened to it.

Anyway, I agree with you 100%. It’s not only that people are pressuring her, it’s that she feels pressured to follow those people. You can only move so fast without tripping and falling- move through things at a pace that feels right and natural. You are not Rebbetzin Kanievsky and she was not you. Listen to rap or don’t, but what other people say about it is not the point. Listen to them, but assimilate the information, if you so choose, at the rate that makes sense internally.

Good luck!