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and reading the long list of ingredients on a standard choc bar, I cannot believe that this is such a product.
mikehall: “My point was other than a sticker, there is no difference, no separate runs…everything is exactly the same….”
a sticker would [usually? always?] mean that there has been a separate run or different supervision. It’s just cheaper than producing different packaging.
Very interesting posts and very interesting points. : )
chocandpatience –
Obviously, according to the view I am purporting, one must know what each ingredient is. This might seem difficult, but it is not very hard once one gets used to it.
Yitayningwut, i responded to you yesterday but i guess the YWN Mod folks didnt release it, not sure why.
Firefox history, pretty neat
*likes*
Regarding sticker hechsherim.
The way to know what added KASHRUS benefit the sticker provides to the kosher consumer is to ask the name printed on the sticker. You’d be surprised at how often the answer is NOTHING. Often, it is nothing more than a marketing strategy.
Caveat Emptor.
ill_be_strong –
I don’t get what the problem with bringing it up here could possibly be. No one could possibly find out who she is talking about. She wasn’t being motzi la’az on any group or anything, she was talking about one individual. And in retrospect, you see there is value in the fact that she did so, because she found out that there could be a limud zechus. And the fact that she is willing to accept a limud zechus shows that her intention in the first place was not simply to rant, but also to ask if anyone could help her be melamed zechus. Does the Chofetz Chaim say that even with all these considerations she was wrong?
ill_be_strong: I have never heard that talking about a person unknown to both sides could be LH.
Source, please?
Where does the CC ever say it is LH to say a vague story where no one can identify any of the principals in the story?
I just read the thread. I’m totally astounded at some of the attitudes. It’s scary. I personally would not eat anything in their homes. It’s all suspect. If you do not use a realiable hechsher which nowadays you can find pretty much anywhere you should be ashamed and think of your family who suffered by the holocaust with so little just to make sure they only ate Kosher. You are not an authority on whats permitted or not. The ingredient could be combined with anything YOU DON’T KNOW SHAME ON YOU.
I’ve been told that years ago reliance on “ingredient lists” was
also due to the fact that food production was much simpler without complex ingredients available today as well as a lower standard of knowlege and observance.
I’ll look up the chapter when I get home (which would actually be the Yiddish version). Is the safer posted online (the full text)?
Astounded – your ignorance astounds me. Do you have a rav that you follow for everything? I do. And he says that it is 100% ok to read ingredients. As yitayningwut wrote earlier, Rabbi Abadi can back up his psak with halacha. Yet you bring up the holocaust to back your point, so you must know what you’re talking about.
P. S. I use my oven and dishwasher for dairy and meat, so you def don’t want to eat at my house.
chocandpatience
Member
a sticker would [usually? always?] mean that there has been a separate run or different supervision. It’s just cheaper than producing different packaging.
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apushatayid
Member
Regarding sticker hechsherim.
The way to know what added KASHRUS benefit the sticker provides to the kosher consumer is to ask the name printed on the sticker. You’d be surprised at how often the answer is NOTHING. Often, it is nothing more than a marketing strategy.
Caveat Emptor.
_______________
chocandpatience –> not correct
apushatayid –> correct
I did something similar to this a few Purims ago. I saw a sticker on a box without a hechscher. Other candies from that company had a hechscher. I called the company and asked who gives the kosher certification and they told me. I asked about the name on the sticker and they told me they never heard of him. I called the Rav who gives the hechsher and asked him if the other Rabbis give a hechsher to this Company and he told me that as far as he knows only he does and no other Hechsher agency has contacted him nor has the “sticker” rabbi. I asked about the boxes without his hechsher if they were kosher and he sent me a complete list. it turns out that the “sticker” Rabbi put his sticker on products under kosher supervision and were 100% kosher – but he never did anything more than check the websites (if he even did that) to ascertain their kosher status. Note: back then some of the items that this candy company produces is not kosher and contains dyes from non-kosher sources – I do not know about now.
So why will people rely on the “sticker” Rabbi and not on the Rav who actually did and continues to do all the work?
ill_be_strong –
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15142&pgnum=1
(Hebrewbooks is an invaluable resource whenever you need a sefer online.)
In the Yiddish Chofetz Chaim (red cover), its page 129 (Hilchas LH, Klal 3). He says (not quoting word for word):
LH is Assur even the words won’t lead to damage (in whichever from), either because a)the listeners didn’t believe b)the listeners “didn’t get who’s being discussed”. In short, the persons identity is not revealed. He then brings down a Rbainu Yona which explains the concept in details.
So there you have it. Now, you guys understand that you are probably sinning far greater than the girl with the Treif chocolate who we don’t even know whether she a)ate the chocolate b)bought it for herself (etc etc, but basically, being Dan Lkaf Zchus)
I think it is talking about someone you know telling you a story and the speaker knows he is saying bad things about someone but isn’t saying who. I don’t know if it would apply if the speaker doesn’t know who they are talking about or if the speaker is anonymous and could even be making it up. It’s been a long time since I learned it formally but that is what I remember. I will try to ask someone this weekend cuz now I am curious. But I sure wont condemn a ‘room’ full of people who would never have imagined they were doing something wrong.
Hello, Astonished, others: I would advise that you stop ranting here. I would personally feel (for several separate reasons) that anyone who goes just based on ingredients is eating Traif. And no, I wouldn’t eat in Yitay’s home because that food would be Treif for me. I would, however, hold of Yitay’s Ne’emanus for everything else (including Kashrus-related) because I acknowledge that Rabbi Abadi is a Bar Hachi of having an opinion and his Talmidim have a right to follow that opinion. I also acknowledge that Rabbi Abadi is much smarter and more knowledgeable than I and that I cannot dismiss his opinion out of hand for others, even if I would hold there are potential Issurei D’Oraisa with eating the food for myself.
cinderella -“ill_be_strong, How in the world is it Lashon hara to tell a story about someone you don’t know? You don’t even know me. And it’s not like I was talking about a specific group of people. Or a specific place.”
Since you didn’t mention the name of the person or a name of a group and noone can figure it out -IT’s NOT L.H.!
ill_be_strong -“In the Yiddish Chofetz Chaim (red cover), its page 129 (Hilchas LH, Klal 3). He says (not quoting word for word):
LH is Assur even the words won’t lead to damage (in whichever from), either because a)the listeners didn’t believe b)the listeners “didn’t get who’s being discussed”. In short, the persons identity is not revealed. He then brings down a Rbainu Yona which explains the concept in details.”
I knew you were making a mistake, but I looked it up anyway (to be sure).
What the C.C. says is that you can’t speak about anyone even if no harm will come to that person. Eg. they aren’t Mekabel what you say.
Of course if you don’t mention a name or a group -IT IS NOT L.S. You have misconstrued the C.C.
I learnt C.C. many times over many years. This is what L.H. or Rechilos is -the party being spoken about -either you mentioned their name or e/o can figure out whom it is -if they wanted to!
72: I wasn’t referring to charlatans and pseudo-hechsherim. Of course anyone can afix their ‘hechsher’ sticker.
I meant when the ‘sticker hechsher’ was a recognised reliable hechsher. I didn’t make myself clear.
Many years ago I heard a lecture from Rav Hershel Shachter on kashrus. In the course of that lecture, he explained that even water needs to be researched. He said that treif liquids can be (and sometimes are) run on the same lines used to bottle water. To be honest, I had never thought until then to check if water has a hechsher. It seems to me it is really not so simple to pasken by ingredients.
There is a huge difference between asserting something is treif and asserting that it is not up to a standard of kashrus that you personally follow. There are many things that I don’t eat possibly because I hold by a different hashgocha, but I know that these things are minimally kosher. Certainly someone who eats them is NOT eating treif (I am not talking about products with additives).
It is “treif” for me to eat rice and beans on Pesach. Does that make it unkosher? The problem specifically with today is that many additives and chemicals are introduced into products that are otherwise l’chatchilah kosher. Or, as was pointed out, they are produced on machinery that might have a run of something unkosher (though that has never made sense to me, because i.e., chocolate bars are produced so en masse, it would seem that they would use one machine for all the plain milk chocolate, another one for the milk chocolate with almonds, another for the Nestles Crunch type, etc.). In any case, we DO have to be vigilant nowadays. Life was much simpler when the only ingredients in products were simple and unadulterated.
Hi Health.
If you are as well versed in loshon hora as you claim, then you should be familiar with the safeguard of protective fences as being very liberal and covering a lot of ground.
Is it within the parameters of shmiras haloshon to want to be careful about speaking about someone who is anonymous to you? Absolutely!
Remember, the Chofetz Chaim also talks about concern for your “fellow” and does not stipulate your “fellow” means only if you know their name.
If someone wants to be careful…extra careful..that is meritous… Dont call them on the carpet for that or lose your patience.
Sorry folks, but you are wrong, allow me to explain (to the best of my ability). Btw, Yita, thanks for the link, it is indeed a very valuable site.
The Safer CC on hebrewbooks doesnt bring down the specific Rabeinu Yona that the Yiddish version is referencing (from what i’ve seen so far), but its explaining it somewhere along those lines.
There are 2 parts to LH:
1)Its causing Tzar or damage to someone(in whichever form). For example, Reuvens bakery makes the worse marble cake i’ve ever eaten, Shimon is too nervous to be a car service driver (financial damage), or, Rivkas husband Levi doesnt davan with Minyan (Personal Tzar – people in the neighborhood may not allow their kids to play in Levis house with Levis kids). This is the obvious that’s naturally understood by anyone.
2)One Yid speaking on another Yid in negative light, that’s it! What’s the problem you might ask? Hasham gets angry when someone bad mounts one of his kids. You guys can relate to it, i’ll draw an analogy. Say Cinderella is sitting with a group of people, there’s conversation back and forth when suddenly someone starts bad mounting someone. He/she has no idea who the person is, he/she is just ranting about a story he/she witnessed “I’m appalled at what i saw this person doing” the talker says in a “speechless” tone. The rest of the group then gets engaged in this -what appears to be- harmless discussion. Little do they know that Cinderellas stomach dropped and that her heart is beating really fast, because, the person being discussed happens to be her kid! Cinderella is hoping her face didn’t turn red and is HOPING for people to end the discussion and shift lanes. The same is true with Hasham, but in a much more magnified way because (as the Mussir Sfurim note) Hasham loves us more than we love our-self, and so when one speaks on another Yid (his beloved child), he asks in anger “Who is bad mouthing my child?!”
LH has NOTHING to do with the outcome, its the talking its self. Let me quote the Safer CC on hebrewbooks (with a summery translation). This is Page 116 on the web (78 of the Safer).
?? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????
???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ?????, ?????? ???, ??-??-????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????
????? ????. ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????
??????? ??? ??? ?????? ??????, ?? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??????
And know, even the LH will not lead to any bad to that person, for example, none of the listeners believed his words, etc, it is not outside the scope of LH. Furthermore, even the speaker evaluates and concludes that no bad can come out from his words (As some of you asking “what bad can POSSIBLY come out of this when no one knows the persons identity”)it is still prohibited to talk about the persons flaws. As the ??? ??? ???? explains (same age).
??? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ???
???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???
?????, ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????
????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????
????? ?????
It doesn’t have to come down to friction (for it to be a sin) only by ?????? because by ?????? the talker wants to initiate a fight between the two, wheres LH, the talker wants for the listeners to agree with his words.
And guys, please remember what all the Sfurim are saying. Hasham never hands down out a bad verdict on a Yid, even he/she deserves it. He will always let the person be his OWN judge by showing him/her a similar story and then be Dan that person based on how the person responds, based on his/her OWN judgment. As the Sfurim point out, everything we see is for a reason, nothing is by accident (I was coincidentally in the same line). That’s why Chazal are commending us to always be Dan everyone favorably, its for your OWN good! If you’re Dan everyone Lkaf Zchus then Hasham will ALWAYS have to be you Dan Lkaf Zchus, even we fail at times.
What makes some hecksher unreliable?
I’ve never really gotten a concrete answer as to why some are not “trustworthy”…what I do get is a lot of Loshan Hora about the Rabbi who oversees the Kashrus agency…nothing specific at all
Prince C yes I do have a rov whom I follow.You’re right about one thing I definitely wouldn’t want to eat in your house. Do you also wash your dishes in one sink? I think you need to ask your rov a few more questions.
There seems to be three issues being discussed –
1. Whether or not it is ok to rely on ingredients alone to determine the kashrus status of a product.
2. Whether or not it is ok that the OP opened her mouth to a complete stranger about something that did not affect her.
3. Whether or not it is Lashon Hara to discuss this at all.
My opinions are as follows:
1. It is imperative that every Jew follows a Rabbi for everything. If your Rabbi says this practice is ok, then it is. If he does not, then it is now. You can argue until your face turns blue, but those of us who follow the ruling that it is ok trust our rav, so it really doesn’t matter how you dispute it.
2. Personally, as I stated earlier, I feel that it was absolutely none of her business.
3. I’ll have to abstain from commenting, as I am not well versed enough on the laws of shmiras halashon. But as a side point, there is so much lashon hara that goes on here, that if anyone here is really so concerned, s/he would stay away from these forums altogether (which is exactly why I usually do… but nobody’s perfect).
astounded – yup, I sure do. As per exact directions from my rav.
Hi mikehall12382.
I am not an expert on this and I hope others will chime in to answer you, as well.
I went to a lecture on kashrus and some of the problems with hecksherim, and they exist to some degree with all agencies who are suppose to continually investigate problems, but would range from less than diligent supervision of a food plants where supervisors call in rather than visually inspect, where there have been names of rabbinical endorsements on the packages of rabbis who were niftar, where endorsements were taken away from a company and they continue to use the label and the agency does not take action after that point.
Also, a new problem, which I personally found, are new hecksherim like the one listed as EK. They claim to be “earth friendly” and “spiritually approved”. In addition, there is dispute about “Triangle K” and regular, plain “K”. I dont know the reasons since much of this is usually by word of mouth, as far as I can tell.
I am confident that OU and Chof K are strong and reliable, but again, for me, this has been by word of mouth.
Cinderella – we all make mistakes. I just hope lesson learned.
Astounded – I want to add that I live in a very religious community, and no one has ever had a problem eating at my house. And they are all very aware that I follow Rabbi Abadi.
The way we can determine if something is kosher is through the “hachsher” that means that, that is now the determinite NOT the ingredients. Through this process it means companies that are not interested in putting a hachsher on because its expensive means its not kosher. Its a way of making a “Lo Plug” something commonly talked about about in gemara make one rule that includes certain situations even though they do not necessarily fit the exact criterion. Otherwise it will over time become too difficult to tell whats really kosher and what I think is.
Cinderella- Doing that was the right thing, in my opinion, because you have to assume she might be making a mistake. It is also appropriate to back away when you realize she isn’t listening, which is what it sounded like you did.
PrinceC said:
But as a side point, there is so much lashon hara that goes on here, that if anyone here is really so concerned, s/he would stay away from these forums altogether (which is exactly why I usually do… but nobody’s perfect)
You’re somewhat right. First of all, do keep in mind that LH is a sin for the listener ONLY if he/she believes it. You are right though that its specifically prohibited to go somewhere you know you will hear LH (even you will choose not to believe anything). I dont think its the case with the YWN forums, its by far not black & white. I’m not here too often, but from what i’ve seen, there isnt a whole lot of LH here.
Had I known that she knew, then I would not have said anything because then it’s none of my business. “
Though I cannot say 100% for sure what is right or wrong in this case, I will say that I believe that it is especially important when you know someone is fully aware she is doing something wrong, to be mekayeim the mitzvah of hocheach tochiach es amisecha. They might have charata when they see their aveira through someone else’s eyes. other people might feel that if you know they will do it anyway, maybe it’s better not to say something, but that really is only when they are a shogeig (better than being a meizid). This is a toughie.
Prince Charming: Cinderella was absolutely in the right. She was stopping an obviously Frum girl from what she had very good reason to believe was a mistake. If the same situation arises again I hope that she (and I) would do the same. The only possible difference would be that (now that she has seen this thread) maybe she would say “Did you know that doesn’t have a Hechsher?” rather than “Did you know that that’s not Kosher?”
hi evryone,
I am sitting here reading this thread,and since i am really new at this site i find it quite interesting,how bnei torah are discussing a topic,quoting their rabbanim,chafetz chaim and so forth.
I wanted to add,that this whole thing reminds me of a story with the chazon isch.the chazon isch once wrote when confronted with the question why he usually does not argue with people even in halacha.
his answer was as follows:
“everyone that paskens has there own approach,based upon their feelings,emotions and experiences in learning and life.nothing i say will change anything.”i find this attitude highly interesting.because some of you really want to hear and be heard,maybe even change their opinion.ashreichem.some of you though have their own agendas and they will NEVER change.as a test,everyone should lean back and think about their emotions about one side(abadi)or the other side(more “mainstream” )those honest among you will feel a certain netiah.and thats the key here.if you are trully honest and objective about halacha and doing the right thing then you will suddenly be able to understand the other side and give them a certain amount of credit even though you may no agree.and yes,there is a certain amount of loshon hora in this thread,subtle underlying tones.we must make sure to stop and listen to the other person if not you are not listening or talking to someone else you are trying to win a fight,and that never works.
In Europe, most kosher products don’t have any symbols. We use the lists provided by whichever beis din we rely on. In the UK there is the KLBD, in the Netherlands the NIK, in Germany the ORD, in Switzerland the IGB and IRGZ… And more, and more. I check them all on my phone whenever I need to check something (so I often spend hours shopping…).
I don’t know how it is in the US, but don’t similar lists exist there as well? Maybe the girl was relying on such a ‘kashrut list’ from some beis din somewhere that does include that particular type of chocolate?
yitw- are you serious? I have lost so much respect for you? Based on what you said : “I would do the same thing (and I do it all the time). Not everyone holds that any products require a hechsher. In fact in some countries there aren’t any hechsherim, and people walk around with a list of ingredients so they can figure out what’s kosher by reading the package labels.”
You really eat things with no hechsher?
You`re not suppose to, you know.
ARWSF: Did you not read the rest of this thread? His Rav (a recognized Posek) holds it’s okay. How can you lose respect for someone for listen to their Rav?
You really eat things with no hechsher?
You`re not suppose to, you know.
You should read the rest of the thread. Although I don’t agree with his defense, yitayningwut did defend himself.
I am deeply disturbed by this thread. I agree whole heartedly with the OP.
While I am not in the kashrus business, I do have semicha and keep myself informed regarding kashrus issues.
One only needs to read the monthly magazine Kashrus to be aware of some of the many reasons one needs to rely on hashgacho and not just checking ingredients..
[1] not all ingredients need be listed
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5] same as 4, but for any other listed ingredient[6] every person working in the plant is trusted that nothing else gets placed in the product?
[7]
[8] who knows what this plant produced in the same equipment before this product was made?TheReader,
Good points. I have a hard time understanding how there are “lists” of acceptable products when anything can change without notice and often does. At least with a hecsher, someone is taking responsibility.
BTGuy -“Hi Health.”
I asked you to stop the Hi.
“If you are as well versed in loshon hora as you claim, then you should be familiar with the safeguard of protective fences as being very liberal and covering a lot of ground.
Is it within the parameters of shmiras haloshon to want to be careful about speaking about someone who is anonymous to you? Absolutely!”
I honestly don’t what you’re saying here. Making a fence by the Issur of L.H. -is at most a Chumra. He was talking about Halacha.
He quoted something that he said was Ossur and IT Isn’t!
ill_be_strong –
To be honest -I don’t know where this Rabbeynu Yona is, but it doesn’t really matter. Even if you are correct and he does say what he you say he says -this doesn’t change the Halacha.
The C.C. says that the listener has to know whom you are talking about to be considered L.H., not the way you misconstrue it.
All this R. Yona can do is make it a Mussar Deherr, not a Halacha!
So I’ll repeat it again, lest anyone starts believing your nonsense -in order for it to be L.H. or Rechilous you have to know who the individual or group is – that the guy is talking about!!!
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