I'm gonna marry a feminist yekke girl

This topic has 36 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 11 months ago by rebdoniel.

Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)

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November 24, 2012 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #606546

popa_bar_abba
Participant

So I only have to wait one hour.

ho ho ho

November 25, 2012 4:34 am at 4:34 am #909739

Chulent
Member

Yekke’s wait three hours; it is the Dutch that wait only one hour.

But either way why marry a feminist? Marry a machist.

November 25, 2012 5:11 am at 5:11 am #909740

WIY
Member

Popa

Not maskim. If she is a feminist instead of taking on your minhag she will keep hers and therefore she will continue to hold one hour. You however will keep your minhag.

November 25, 2012 11:57 am at 11:57 am #909741

Toi
Participant

We wait three. go marry a yodeler.

November 25, 2012 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #909742

☕️coffee addict
Participant

like attracts like

November 25, 2012 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #909743

rebdoniel
Member

PBA,

This is an offensive and pointless posting, let alone one which shows a complete lack of knowledge on these minhagim.

My belief is that the entire inyan of waiting between meat and dairy is highly subjective. I am unaware of where Rambam deduces a 6 hour waiting period from (he does say that because of the meat between one’s teeth with is not removed by cleaning) although this seems to be the most widely-followed practice. Hullin 105a tells us that Mar Ukva’s father would wait a day between meat and cheese, while Mar Ukva says he would wait for the next meal. The time one would wait between meals goes undefined. Germans, I assume, waited three hours between meals.

As long as one does kinuach and hadacha, according to Tosafot, one probably wouldn’t have to wait any formally-allotted period of time. Since I typically follow many S&P minhagim, 72 minutes seems sufficient and in accordance with the texts.

November 26, 2012 12:09 am at 12:09 am #909744

Chortkov
Participant

I have a daughter… all applications in writing please; please allow 7-10 working days delivery. Terms and conditions apply.

November 26, 2012 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #909747

popa_bar_abba
Participant

You don’t have to be so rude.

Believe me, I toned it down majorly from how I first drafted it. And I think even the first drafting was an appropriate response. Go back and read what I was responding to.

November 26, 2012 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #909748

MDG
Participant

” I toned it down majorly from how I first drafted it.”

I’m glad you toned it down from very rude to just rude.

“Go back and read what I was responding to. “

Also please keep in mind who you are responding to. Waiting time is not MiDiorysa; Onaas Devarim is.

November 26, 2012 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #909749

popa_bar_abba
Participant

yeah, you’re right. Mods, can you help us out here?

November 27, 2012 12:03 am at 12:03 am #909750

popa_bar_abba
Participant

Ok, take 2.

doniel: That is not really accurate. Any shitta of less than 6 hours comes from the other opinion in the rishonim that you only have to wait until you bench and start the meal over. And then communities were machmir to wait some amount of time anyway. See rema and nosei keilim, 89:1.

November 27, 2012 12:55 am at 12:55 am #909751

MDG
Participant

PBA,

Very nice “take 2”.

May we all speak with Chessed and Emet (notice that chessed always comes first when the two are mentioned). And may we all be zocheh to Teshuva in all our speaking.

November 27, 2012 2:14 am at 2:14 am #909752

JustLogic
Member

Why don’t you?

November 27, 2012 2:47 am at 2:47 am #909753

Torah613Torah
Participant

JustLogic: Because it’s hard to find a yekkish feminist girl willing to marry someone with green lips.

November 27, 2012 11:09 am at 11:09 am #909754

just my hapence
Participant

PBA – That’s not really accurate either, Rabbeinu Yerucham says 3 hours, with the reason being that it’s bein seuda l’seuda. He says it b’sheim Rashi (though we don’t appear to have such a Rashi). Maharil says 1 hour for the same reason, adding that if one wishes to be machmir one should wait 3 hours. Again, the reason is bein seuda l’seuda. Mabit brings no less than 10 Rishonim who all hold of 3 hours as being bein seuda l’seuda. There seems to be some historical reasons for this; I have heard (though cannot confirm and have not seen any mareh mekomos, so I may very well be mistaken) that it depended on both the length of day and how many meals per day various communities ate. The Middle-Eastern kehillos apparently ate 2 meals a day, one in the late morning, one in the late afternoon and seeing as the length of day near the equator is fairly evenly split for most of the year this results in a 6 hour gap between meal 1 and meal 2. Northern European kehillos either had 2 meals per day, but with shorter daylight hours, making 3 hours between meals, or 3 meals making 1 hour. Like I say, I have never seen this inside, but have been told so by multiple sources that I believe to be reliable. Anyhow, it is quite clear from the Rishonim that 1, 3 and 6 hours are all based on bein seuda l’seuda and have very good mesoras. And yes, I am aware of the Shach…

November 27, 2012 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #909755

Yserbius123
Participant

That’s my great aunts family. I never questioned the fact that many of my second cousins kept three hours, because I always just assumed our entire family was Yekkish. I realized as I got older that there was an entire branch of our family that was Litvish, yet they all held three hours, even those with Litvish fathers. My father laughed and explained that his aunt was simply too hard-headed to be pushed into waiting more than three hours, and her daughters simply followed suit.

November 27, 2012 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #909756

popa_bar_abba
Participant

JMH: I didn’t think that was true, as the nosei keilim on the shulchan aruch say, and the rema implies. However, it is not impossible that the taz and shach are ignoring 10 rishonim.

Nevertheless, I’m a bit confused where you are getting your info from. I was curious enough to try to look up some of your sources. Let’s start with Rabeinu yerucham.

Rabbeinu yerucham, in ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ? says:

??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????’ ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ???’ ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??’ ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???

So that is saying 6 hours…

November 27, 2012 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #909757

just my hapence
Participant

PBA – Haven’t seen it in a while, and don’t own a copy, but I distinctly recall seeing 3 in R’ Yerucham. If I remember correctly it’s in issur v’heter (39 or thereabouts). The Maharil is in Minhagim (issur v’heter, 5 d”h ochal, and 40, 4). The Mabit is (I think) in Sh’ut discussing waiting between milchig and fleishig (as oppose to visa versa). Waiting 3 hours is also mentioned in Chayei Odom Siman 127.

November 27, 2012 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #909759

popa_bar_abba
Participant

Here is the maharil

http://books.google.com/books?id=5ZwtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA78-IA66&lpg=PA78-IA66&dq=%D7%91%D7%A9%D7%A8+%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%91%D7%99%22%D7%9C&source=bl&ots=3uynsgKo40&sig=296afzvh5RPhQqGh1B_LaTiTQ44&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AOK0UI6FF-nO0QG654CIBA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%D7%91%D7%A9%D7%A8%20%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%91%D7%99%22%D7%9C&f=false

You can see he says:

??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??”? ?? ????? ????. ?????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ?’ ????, ?????? ?????? ??? ???. ????? ??????

November 27, 2012 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #909760

morahmom
Participant

This thread definitely wins the gold medal for people who need a life.

November 27, 2012 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #909761

benignuman
Participant

Popa,

I have seen the Rabbeinu Yerucham that Pence is referring to. It is in Issur V’Heter L’Rabbeinu Yerucham 39.

November 28, 2012 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #909762

popa_bar_abba
Participant

Ok, yes, that is what it says in Rabbeinu yerucham there.

??? ??? ???? ????? ????’ ?? ????’ ???’ ??’ ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????, ??’ ?”? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???’ ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?’ ???? ???”?

Which is really interesting, and presumably shach and taz and rema where not aware of it, or had a different girsa in it (easy to switch a ? and ?–either way). It is especially interesting since Rabbeinu yerucham himself says the opposite as I quoted above.

How about the maharil? I quoted above where he implies like me (says you cannot eat in same meal, and then cites chumra to wait some hours, like taz explains and like I said).

November 28, 2012 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #909763

squeak
Participant

This thread definitely wins the gold medal for people who need a life.

Yes popa, how awful of you to keep discussing halacha in a way that makes people interested.

November 28, 2012 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #909764

just my hapence
Participant

PBA – your link led to a google books page which didn’t allow me a look inside. No PDF. Do you have a PDF link available?

November 28, 2012 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #909765

popa_bar_abba
Participant

JMH:

To update on my research:

The ??? ??? you cite does not help you. It merely says there are different minhagim of how long to wait–which is nothing we haven’t seen in the rema, and in the rishonim. It does not suggest that it is based on a machlokes about how long the shiur of bein seuda l’seuda is, as you suggest.

I’d like you to find the ????. I did an exhaustive bar ilan search through it, with keywords: ???, ?????, ???, ???? (separately), and found nothing.

So to conclude:

The chayei adom says nothing.

The maharil implies like me (says you cannot eat in same meal, and then cites chumra to wait some hours, like taz explains and like I said).

Rabbeinu yerucham implies like you in one place, but is ???? himself, and the one which is like you is also contradicted by its being based on an non-existent source.

???? is MIA.

Taz, shach, are like me.

Rema implies like me.

November 28, 2012 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #909766

popa_bar_abba
Participant

The google books link just worked for me… Try again, or just search for ????”? on google books.

November 28, 2012 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #909767

just my hapence
Participant

PBA – Did both. Neither worked. I therefore will have to check both mekoros in Maharil (I noticed you only looked up 1) again. As for the Mabit, I will bl’n try and find it for you. It definitely exists as I had much fun showing it to people in my yeshiva days. However, I do not have a copy, nor any real access to one. I can ask my contacts in Gateshead Yeshiva to check for me. The Chayei Odom cites ‘dei’os bo’rishonim’ that one does not need to wait 6 hours, but ‘eizeh’ sho’ois’ (in the plural, hence more than 1). This means that there are Rishonim who do not hold of 1 or 6 hours, and not that these are the only options and 3 is a minhag taken on l’chumra of 1. It is therefore very much muchrach from the Chayei Odom not like you.

November 28, 2012 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #909768

popa_bar_abba
Participant

????”?. Here they both are, enjoy!

??? ????”? (??????) ????? ????? ?????

?? ?? ????, ????? ???? ?????

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???? ?? ???? ???”? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ???. ???? ???”? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??????.

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???? ????”? ?? ??????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ???”? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????, ?? ??????? ????. ????? ????? ?? ???? ????”? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ??????. ????? ???? ??”? ????, ???? ????? ???? ????”? ?????. ???? ????? ??”? ?????? ??? ???????? ?????? ???”? ??? ?”? ????”? ???? ?? ??????? ?? ????. ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????, ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??????, ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???”? ?? ??? ????.

??? ????”? (??????) ????? ????? ????? ????? ????

[????? ????? ????? ????]

[?] ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ???????, ????? ??? ???”? ??”? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????, ???? ????? ????. ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????.

[?] ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ??

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??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????, ???? ??????? ?? ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ????, ??????? ??”?. ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???????. ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????????.

??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????, ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????. ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????.

??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?’ ???? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ????, ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????. ???? ??? ????? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????. ??? ?????? ????? ????. ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??’ ????, ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?’ ????.

??? ???? ?”? ????? ???, ??? ?????? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????. ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????. ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???. ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???. ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????, ??????? ??”? ???? ??? ???? ?????.

??????? ????????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????, ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???, ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???. ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????. ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???. ??? ???? ????.

??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???. ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????.

??? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????, ??????? ?? ??????. ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ?”? ????? ?????, ??????? ?? ??????.

????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???. ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????.

????? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ??”? ?????? ????. ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????. ???”? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????.

??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ????, ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???, ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????.

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November 29, 2012 12:50 am at 12:50 am #909769

popa_bar_abba
Participant

Chayey odom:

??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?’ ????, ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ?????? ?? ???? ????, ???? ???? ??????, ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ???’ ?

At the time the Chayey odom lived, there were well established minhagim which held various amounts of hours, as the rema notes. It is completely probable that these are the minhagim he refers to. And that the history of their development is as the taz and shach describe.

I note that according to no current minhag can you just bench and wash again, as is min hadin according to the rishonim of not eating in the same seudah. And therefore chayey odom does not consider the possibility that somebody might be matir neder and start just benching and not waiting at all. If, as you posit, chayey odom is referring to the alternative shittos in the din of the gemara–not the minhagim of his time–then he should discuss that as well, particularly since that is how the rema paskens min hadin.

I see nothing in this which implies that anyone holds those minhagim are m’dina d’gemara.

November 29, 2012 1:10 am at 1:10 am #909770

Sam2
Participant

Just my Hapence and PBA: The Rabbeinu Yerucham saying three hours is the most famous Ta’us Sofer in the history of T’uyos Sofer/T’uyos Had’fus. He never said 3 hours. In fact, there is a Cherem on reprinting the original page of the Rabbeinu Yerucham because of this typo and many publishers over the centuries have actually died shortly after reprinting it.

November 29, 2012 2:04 am at 2:04 am #909771

shmoel
Member

So how do the Yekkes get away with 3 hours and the Dutch with 1 hour?

November 29, 2012 6:50 am at 6:50 am #909772

rebdoniel
Member

Bein seuda l’seuda is obviously governed by local convention and not halakha. Halakha does not tell you when to eat your meals. Rama says that in Poland, they only waited one hour and the whole inyan is to not eat meat and dairy in the same meal. He maintains that, according to the letter of the law, one may eat a meat meal, recite Birkat Hamazon and then immediately begin a dairy meal. While the minhag developed to wait some period of time, this is just a minhag . In addition, it is noteworthy that the Rambam says one should wait about 5.5 hours, not 6 hours, which leads some to say that 5 and a half hours suffices. There is obviously much diversity on this matter, which results from the fact that there are little, if any, actual halakhic requirements.

November 29, 2012 11:24 am at 11:24 am #909773

just my hapence
Participant

Sam2 – I find it far more likely that the 6 hours is the To’us, as the mistake of printing ‘Shalosh’ as ‘Shesh’ requires only that the printer miss out a lamed, whereas the reverse would need the addition of an entire word as well as the letter ‘lamed’ (and the invention of a rashi). Occam’s Razor says that R’ Yerucham had a rashi we do not (which is not at all uncommon amongst Rishonim) and that a printer missed out a letter. It requires fewer assumptions than positing that a printer a) put in a letter that was not there, b) put in a word that was not there and c) invented a rashi that was not there. I have also never heard of your cherem and the fact that the ‘gimmel’ girso appears in all modern defusim surely would imply that such a cherem does not exist. I would like documented instances of printers dying after printing it, please, rather than just saying it.

PBA – Thanks for the Maharil, I guess I must have been misremembering. However, I do disagree with your interpretation of the Chayei Odom as he refers to them not simply as minhogim, but as ‘dei’os’. This means, to my mind anyway, that they are based not simply on practice but on actual shittos. When I asked my Rov he said that mistomo the Chayei Odom is referring to R’ Yerucham. I’m still trying to chase down that Mabit for you, by the way…

November 29, 2012 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #909774

popa_bar_abba
Participant

Bein seuda l’seuda is obviously governed by local convention and not halakha. Halakha does not tell you when to eat your meals. Rama says that in Poland, they only waited one hour and the whole inyan is to not eat meat and dairy in the same meal. He maintains that, according to the letter of the law, one may eat a meat meal, recite Birkat Hamazon and then immediately begin a dairy meal. While the minhag developed to wait some period of time, this is just a minhag . In addition, it is noteworthy that the Rambam says one should wait about 5.5 hours, not 6 hours, which leads some to say that 5 and a half hours suffices. There is obviously much diversity on this matter, which results from the fact that there are little, if any, actual halakhic requirements.

The above is not correct. You are still confusing the shittos. There is a machlokes rishonim whether bein seudah l’seudah is physical seudos or an amount of time, ie. 6 hours.

Rema paskens like the first one, but notes a minhag to wait 1 hour anyway. He ultimately notes that the proper ashkenazic minhag is to wait 6 hours like the second shitta. (89:1 see taz, shach ad locum)

It is not obvious at all that local custom (nor avi weiss custom) plays any part, and is also incorrect.

If you are interested in sephardic minhagim, you are required to wait 6 hours min hadin it would appear, since the mechaber paskens like the second shitta that bein seudah l’seudah is an amount of time, ie. 6 hours.

November 29, 2012 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #909775

popa_bar_abba
Participant

More updates:

I did find your source.

Ok, so there is a shitta in the pri chodosh that the 6 hours are shaos zmanios, and in the winter they are shorter. Thus, he says in the winter if you eat meat in the morning, you can eat cheese for lunch even though it is only approximately 4 hours. See pri chodosh 89:6

????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??????… ??”? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???

??? ? ???? ??????

I would probably have read this to mean that you always use shaos zmanios regardless of what time of year it is or where you live, and that it would be a chumra in the summer in alaska to wait 12 hours.

However, I did find your source.

Mizmor L’dovid, authored by Rav Dovid Pardo (1718-1792, Rav of Sarajevo, Rosh Yeshiva of Chesed L’avrohom in Jerusalem, Mechutan of the Chida).

In his peirush on shulchan aruch, http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=8211&st=&pgnum=126&hilite=

He apparently reads the Pri Chodosh differently than I did, and understands that the pri chodosh is determining that since in the winter 6 shaos zmanios is 4 hours, it would not make sense to have different amounts of time in different times of the year and places, so it is always 4 hours min hadin.

He says this is the source of the 3 hour minhag, and that these people ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?????.

I saw these sources in an OU bulletin, (http://www.oukosher.org/pdf/Daf20-1c.pdf)which says that Rav Schwab was very happy when he saw this, even though he still encouraged people to adopt 6 hours when they got married. The piece explains how 4 becomes 3 also.

November 29, 2012 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #909776

rebdoniel
Member

If local custom weren’t a factor, then a significant portion of Ashkenazim wouldn’t wait only 3 hours and an old Sephardic community wouldn’t wait only 72 minutes.

Minhag is a function of context and geography as much as it is a function of text.

And for the record, I wait 72 minutes, which is the practice of the Sephardic Jews of the Spanish and Portuguese minhag, which is the original Sephardic way.

November 29, 2012 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #909777

rebdoniel
Member

And, what does Rabbi Avi Weiss have to do with this discussion? AFAIK, he waits 6 hours like other Jews from non-Yekkishe Ashkenazic backgrounds.
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