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nolongersingle- Is it not rebelling against the nations by Kiryas Yoel annexing land (there are lots of articles about this on ywn)? My point is that Satmar says that Zionism is rebelling against the nations but Im saying that although it may be, they are no better.
Sam: The unemployment rate of 28 year old and older chareidi men in EY is fairly low. They may get paid poorly, but they work.
Yosi: No. They are following NY law in doing so. Nothing wrong at all.
Health
Agreements not in writing are worthless.
I do not know the difference between ammend and change. Please enligten me.
I find it surprising that you consider Ben Gurion honest. But ok we can let that one go, I can live with it.
ubiquitin -“Agreements not in writing are worthless.”
Not at all true. This is both acc. to Torah & the law!
“I do not know the difference between ammend and change. Please enligten me.”
Lol Health, I think you made up that definition. source?
Here is what Webster’s says
” Amend:
to change some of the words and often the meaning of (a law, document, etc.)
: to change and improve (something, such as a mistake or bad situation)”
Both of these can easily apply to any “Agreement” you say was made. Even if you believe it WAS binding and enforceable, which obviously it was neither, who knows the terms? What if I said it was made for one generation, there is no way to disprove my made up contention which is why verbal agreements are worthless.
As an aside, easy on the Am haratzos, with out a kinyan a verbal agreement is halachicly worthless and unenforcable. Of course there is an inyan of Lo yachel divaro, but a. Ben Gurion is dead, there is no reason to uphold HIS divaro. and b. I dont think he cares.
Oh as to your third silly point that early Zionists were honest, Peres is still alive and he supports the draft too!
Barry:
“The Chazon Ish said that we needed two generations of exclusive Torah learning to rebuild Torah after WWII.”
Source?
“Poverty is being forced on them by their leadership.”
What are you talking about? The Chareidim aren’t working because either A) they’re busy learning Torah B) Israeli law does not permit them to or C) they cannot find suitable employment in a Chareidi-friendly atmosphere. This is not being “forced” by anybody.
“At the same time, Bennett countered him in every way possible and minimized the damage. “
Happy Purim to you too. Bennet brought Lapid to power by making a pact with him as soon as the elections were over, knowing full and well what Lapid’s positions were about vis-a-vis Yeshivos, conscription, buses on Shabbos, conversions, etc. Then he had Shaked, one of the most prominent members of Bayit Yehudi, write the bill that would have people arrested for wanting to learn Torah, then he used party discipline to force people to vote said bill into law against their consciences. Oh, and then he released some sort of worthless statement to the affect of “we don’t really think it should be this way”.
“There were even articles in the Chareidi press that Chareidi politicians weren’t too upset by the bill despite their yelling, because they knew that it really had no teeth and could have been far worse.”
Name them.
“How is the government forcing poverty on people?”
Until last year, anybody who didn’t go to the army (aka, 99% of the Chareidim) wasn’t allowed to work. How can you blame somebody for not working if you yourself made it illegal for them to do so?
“What you are saying that a Chareidi who is NOT learning shouldn’t have to make the same commitment as everyone else. How is that justifiable?”
Is it any less justifiable than saying that Dati women do not have to serve in the IDF, as per the ruling of the Cheif Rabbinate? Or any less justifiable than the Arabs not having to serve?
There is no equality in Israeli society. I don’t see any legitimate reason why this should the one case where suddenly everybody must be treated exactly the same.
“It’s just an excuse people give to avoid taking personal responsibility.”
“Let everyone else’s children make the sacrifices, afterall, you’re better than they are.”
And here we have it. This is where you’ve given up the charade of presenting facts, and revealed your true motive: bashing the Chareidim. Assuming the worse about their motives, judging them in the worst way you possibly can, insulting them, and do I detect good old fashioned hatred?
Some differences of opinion can be discussed intellectually, but one cannot argue with hatred or disprove contempt. If you just simply hate us, there’s really not much left for me to say.
oomis:
“Does anyone believe it is not a mitzvah to defend Am Yisroel and EY today”
The Halacha (as brought down in the Sulchan Oruch) is that we do not stop learning to Torah in order to do a mitzva if somebody else (who is not learning) can do it.
147:
“I love Israel, and Netanyahu and abhor anyone who even contemplated protesting against Netanyohu, who is such an Oheiv Yisroel.”
So you abhor your fellow Jews, even while talking about Ahavas Yisroel?
Re Moshe1994’s first comment: The Satmar view is that Moshiach is the only Zionist.
“I think even charliehall once posted that at one time a high percentage of hesder boys went OTD (although now it’s better).”
I did post that. My source was a public statement by a Religious Zionist leader who had helped start the Army Preparatory Schools that dramatically reduced the OTD rate for RZ young people who did not want to go to a hesder yeshiva. Previously, the hesder yeshivot had dramatically reduced the OTD rate among their students.
Did you ever why a high percentage of hesder boys go OTD an nowhere near a percent of chareidi boys go OTD?
charliehall: The problem, as I see it, is not with you. Those polls or stories can’t be accurate. People who go off the derech do so for a variety of reasons and the fact that almost all Dati Leumi kids go to the army, doesn’t make the IDF the cause if any do go off the Derech. They may have had problems before and were headed in that direction, IDF or no IDF.
The percentage of Frum kids going off the derech in the U.S. is very significant, including in Chassidish communities. Can they blame that on the IDF too? I’d bet, that the percentage going off the derech in the U.S. is far greater than in Israel.
The only way a study could be accurate is if you interview everyone going off the derech and if they answer honestly.
I live in a mixed community with most boys going to the IDF. I have yet to see any go off the derech. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen, just that no one should blame any specific reason without very in depth study.
From Baalei Teshuva that I’ve spoken with, many credit the IDF and religious soldiers for helping them find their way.
People with agenda’s can skew any statistics to prove anything. It’s all anecdotal. There has never been a real in depth independent study done that really proves any side of the issue.
mw13: I’ll try to find the source for the Chazon Ish’s comment. I read it a number of years ago and don’t remember the source.
“What are you talking about? The Chareidim aren’t working because either A) they’re busy learning Torah B) Israeli law does not permit them to or C) they cannot find suitable employment in a Chareidi-friendly atmosphere. This is not being “forced” by anybody.”
A. Go in the streetsa of Yerushalayim and see able bodied people there all times of day. Not everyone is learning and certainly not learning full time.
B. There is no such law. Not serving in the IDF is no excuse. There is Sheirut Leumi, doing community service work that could be done in their own communities. You also have to have skills to get a decent paying job and since any secular education is frowned upon in their communities, how are they going to be equipped for gainful employment.
C. Real bad excuse. It is not uncommon for people in Israel to tele-commute, meaning working from home, if your qualified for a computer or other professional type jobs.
“Is it any less justifiable than saying that Dati women do not have to serve in the IDF, as per the ruling of the Cheif Rabbinate? Or any less justifiable than the Arabs not having to serve?”
Chareidim have the same option as Dati women (some do go to the IDF) by choosing Sheirut Leumi. Your Arab comment makes me question your sanity!
“Bennet brought Lapid to power by making a pact with him as soon as the elections were over”
Bennett didn’t bring Lapid to power. You don’t understand Israeli politics. Lapid had 19 seats and there was no way of forming a government without him. Bennett used Lapid to get into the government, since Bennett was on the outs with Netanyahu at the time. He also offered the same deal to Shas first and Deri turned him down, leaving him with only Lapid as an option.
B”H. Bennett was in the government. You have no idea how many things he stopped Lapid from doing that would have been very harmful to the Frum world.
“And here we have it. This is where you’ve given up the charade of presenting facts, and revealed your true motive: bashing the Chareidim.”
That’s absolutely ludicrous. Personally, I’m more Chardall. I have Chareidi children. Are you saying I hate my own children? No, people have obligations not to rely on charity. If someone is a real learner, they should stay learning. Many aren’t and are just using the system as an excuse.
There is also a lot of abuse, like people working for a Yeshiva and getting government subsidy as if they are learning full time. People claiming they are learning and are not. If those types of fraud weren’t happening, there would be more money for Yeshiva;s and families. So blame the abusers and enablers of the fraud. They are the ones that lead to the creation of a Lapid.
Also, when was the Kesuvah changed that the women are supposed to support the family in addition to every other family responsibility?
You live in the U.S., I presume. Is the same expectation exist that the men don’t have to work and the women support the family indefinitely? Learning in Kollel is a great thing for a while, but you can work and learn too.
Don’t imply hatred where none exists. You only show that you’re a fool and ignorant too.
Barry:
“Go in the streetsa of Yerushalayim and see able bodied people there all times of day. Not everyone is learning and certainly not learning full time.”
I’ve been in Tel Aviv, and I’ve seen “able bodied people there all times of day” also. Does that mean they’re also parasites?
“Chareidim have the same option as Dati women (some do go to the IDF) by choosing Sheirut Leumi.”
According to the psak of the Chazon Ish, it the same issur di’Oraysa for a women to be Sheruit Leumi as is to be in the army. I’m under the impression that the Cheif Rabbinate concurs.
“your Arab comment makes me question your sanity!”
Hardly a coherent response.
“Lapid had 19 seats and there was no way of forming a government without him.”
Funny, ‘couse the Chareidim had 18 seats and Bennet had no problem making a coalition without them, with seats to spare.
“He also offered the same deal to Shas first and Deri turned him down, leaving him with only Lapid as an option.”
Again, source?
“You have no idea how many things he stopped Lapid from doing that would have been very harmful to the Frum world.”
Name them. Not some vague rhetoric; real, concrete examples (with a source, for crying out loud!) of what Bennet “stopped Lapid from doing that would have been very harmful to the Frum world”.
As for your critique of kollel life, I honestly just don’t have the energy to respond to a whole new minefield of suppositions and accusations. But this I will say; while you are entitled to disagree with the Kollel way of life, you (and Nafatali Bennet) have absolutely no right to attempt to force people to change their beliefs and lifestyles to your personal preferences.
“Don’t imply hatred where none exists. You only show that you’re a fool and ignorant too.”
So you demonstrate a lack of hatred… with insults? Fascinating.
Listen, I think this exchange has fallen below any reasonable bar of intellectual content. Time to call it quits.
Barry: You don’t want Israeli Arabs to be involuntarily drafted into the IDF but you do want Israeli Neteurei Karta Jews in the IDF?
The Chazon Ish never said what you attributed to him. Don’t believe Bennett’s media claims to have helped chareidim. Netanyahu could have made a coalition with UTJ and Shas instead of Lapid. And Chareidim cannot leagally work until their 27 years old since they didn’t join the IDF. Eliminate that legal restriction and you’ll see a lot more Chareidim working. They oppose zionism and the State so forget the idea of them joining the idf. And they only want to live in Eretz Yisroel (and have been since before the State) and have no citizenship elsewhere that any country will accept them, so forget the idea of expelling these Israeli citizens.
Bennet is responsible for the previous evil government. Netanyahu is debatable. The Bennet-Lapid bloc was 31 seats, basically the whole right besides for the chareidim. He still bears responsibility for doing nothing to block the decrees. However, he’s seemingly not as bad as Bennet. It will be interesting to see if the chareidim will enter a government with Bennet, after he stabbed them so viciously in the back; or if they will go with Herzog and Livni, a known chareidi hater. Lieberman would really be a natural partner with Bibi, but he’s having problems and might not enter with chareidim.
So you abhor your fellow Jews, even while talking about Ahavas Yisroel? FYI mw13:- When someone publicly demonstrates against “Am Bnei Yisroel” and sides up with Nochrim, they take on the Halachic status of “Yotzu MiKelal Amiseicho” and cease to be entitled to the perks of bonafide loyal Yehudim.
ubiquitin -“Lol Health, I think you made up that definition. source?
Here is what Webster’s say
” Amend:
to change some of the words and often the meaning of (a law, document, etc.)
: to change and improve (something, such as a mistake or bad situation)”
I know what MW (Webster’s) says because My definition comes from there under synonyms. Look it up!
“Both of these can easily apply to any “Agreement” you say was made. Even if you believe it
WAS binding and enforceable, which obviously it was neither, who knows the terms? What if I
6said it was made for one generation, there is no way to disprove my made up contention which is why verbal agreements are worthless.”
The terms were forever, even though it wasn’t enforceable!
“As an aside, easy on the Am haratzos, with out a kinyan a verbal agreement is halachicly
worthless and unenforcable. Of course there is an inyan of Lo yachel divaro, but a. Ben Gurion is dead, there is no reason to uphold HIS divaro. and b. I dont think he cares.”
You’re playing lawyer again! The agreement is valid because they wrote the law that way –
exempting Charadim.
“Oh as to your third silly point that early Zionists were honest, Peres is still alive and he supports the draft too!”
I didn’t say early Zionists were Tzadikim. In previous generations people were generally honest. They kept their word. When it’s PC to force e/o to go to the IDF, Peres joins the crowd!
Health
i didnt follow your response to my first point.
I’ll bring you up to speed since I think you may have gotten lost:
You said the religous zionists were more dishonest than the founders of the State because the religious Zionists went against an earlier agreement
Among Several absurdities in the above, i pointed out that agreements dont neccesarily last forever.
You then brought up the U.S. Constitiution, and said somehtin along the lines of, why would we follow it if agreements do’nt last.
among Severla absurdities in THAT comparison, I pointed out that the U.S. Constituon has in fact been changed (“ammended”) 27 times.
To which you replied “It can’t be changed, just amended. Do you know the difference?”
I asked you for definitions instead you supplied synonyms. I provided definition any of which apply equally to the Constitution and any agreement regarding draft.
After that you lost me.
As to your other points:
“The terms were forever, even though it wasn’t enforceable!”
a. Says who?
b. Even agreements made forever can be changed in ways. See The U.S constitution, for example.
instead of replying to my next point you said “You’re playing lawyer again! The agreement is valid because they wrote the law that way –
exempting Charadim.”
a. Of course I’m playing lawyer, Arent we discussing a law?
b. They wrote the law that way then wrote it another way. Laws much like constitutions change (see above).
“I didn’t say early Zionists were Tzadikim. In previous generations people were generally honest. They kept their word.”
Beseder so Ben Gurion was honest I can live with that.
147:
“When someone publicly demonstrates against “Am Bnei Yisroel” and sides up with Nochrim, they take on the Halachic status of “Yotzu MiKelal Amiseicho” and cease to be entitled to the perks of bonafide loyal Yehudim.”
Source?
(Even assuming that demonstrating against the secular state of Israel can indeed be called demonstrating “against Am Bnei Yisroel”)
And would your aforesaid abhoration also apply to somebody is mechalalel shabbos bi’rabim?
Joseph: I never said that either. You guys just make things up.
Also, when you don’t live in Israel, the news you get is far more limited.
ubiquitin -“i didnt follow your response to my first point.
I’ll bring you up to speed since I think you may have gotten lost:
You said the religous zionists were more dishonest than the founders of the State because the religious Zionists went against an earlier agreement”
TRUE!
“After that you lost me.”
So what???
“As to your other points:
a. Says who?”
Says me and most Charedim!
“b. Even agreements made forever can be changed in ways. See The U.S constitution, for example.
instead of replying to my next point you said “You’re playing lawyer again! The agreement is valid because they wrote the law that way –
exempting Charadim.”
a. Of course I’m playing lawyer, Arent we discussing a law?”
I never claimed the present gov. is breaking the law. I claimed that you can’t call yourself religious – if you make laws that most religious Jews oppose!
Health you are not telling the truth.
you now say “I claimed that you can’t call yourself religious – if you make laws that most religious Jews oppose!”
This is NOT what you claimed, nor is it what we have been discussing.
We have been discussing this silliness: “You said the religous zionists were more dishonest than the founders of the State because the religious Zionists went against an earlier agreement”
As idenitfied in the last post. Which you said was “True!”
As to who says the agreement was made forever, you said “me and most Charedim” Well we have already identified that you are not an honest individual, and I have never heard anybody else claim the agreememtn was made forver. As asked before (and ignored) do you have a source to this end, or is this more of your dishonesty?
ubiquitin -“Health you are not telling the truth.
you now say “I claimed that you can’t call yourself religious – if you make laws that most religious Jews oppose!”
This is NOT what you claimed, nor is it what we have been discussing.
We have been discussing this silliness: “You said the religous zionists were more dishonest than the founders of the State because the religious Zionists went against an earlier agreement”
As idenitfied in the last post. Which you said was “True!”
As to who says the agreement was made forever, you said “me and most Charedim” Well we have already identified that you are not an honest individual, and I have never heard anybody else claim the agreememtn was made forver. As asked before (and ignored) do you have a source to this end, or is this more of your dishonesty?”
Again -“The Herzl Zionists agreed that Frum people don’t have to go to the army. Nowadays – the “Religious Zionists” which Biyet Hayehudi (NRP – Mizrachi) is part of the gov., passed the law forcing e/o to be drafted!”
Why do you keep repeating the same nonsense? You simply don’t understand that the Gedolim Only agreed to the Medina if the Frumme can’t be drafted! The Laws of the Torah never change, even if time does!
Okay Health, so is everyone becoming Satmar and Brisk now? No more election politics? Cause now all the Gedolim will for sure be anti-Israel and against being in the Knesset….
Health, sadly as usual your post isnt accurate.
You say “the Gedolim Only agreed to the Medina if the Frumme can’t be drafted!” Nope! The medina was made with or without the Frumme. The draft issue was only discussed after the founding to keep charedim in the ruling Labor party’s coalition where they remained through 1977 (I have to double check the date)
The Laws of the Torah never change, even if time does! (sort of true, there are parts that fall out of favor for one reason or other, but this is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.)
For arguments sake, the draft could be wrong halachicly, even Yharog Veal yaavor and your first post regarding the dishonety of NRP vs original zionists is still absurd
Mammele-“Okay Health, so is everyone becoming Satmar and Brisk now? No more election politics? Cause now all the Gedolim will for sure be anti-Israel and against being in the Knesset….”
You’re Mistake; the Gedolim were Never Pro- Israel.
ubiquitin -“Health, sadly as usual your post isnt accurate.
For arguments sake, the draft could be wrong halachicly, even Yharog Veal yaavor and your first post regarding the dishonety of NRP vs original zionists is still absurd”
No, the original zionists kept their words, not like the “Bayet (Non-) Yehudi!
Health youve said that already.
Ive pointed out why that claim is absurd for at least 3 reasons
See here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/im-anti-zionist-now#post-559653
ubiquitin -“Health youve said that already.
Ive pointed out why that claim is absurd for at least 3 reasons”
And I rebutted them! Don’t you read?
Here they are again:
“The Herzl Zionists compromised that frum don’t need to go to the army based on realities at the time. Times change.”
They made an agreement. Who says they wouldn’t abide by the agreement, even though it’s 2015?”
” “Are you saying Ben Gurion liked the idea of Long term learning for all then ? “
No.
“Are you saying he would still support it now?”
He didn’t support it then, but he made an agreement.”
“What on Earth are you talking about?”
“Herzl’s followers would Not renegade on their agreement, like the “so-called” -“Religious Zionists”!”
Lol health, youve rebutted nothing.
Youve made false claims and backed them up with dishonest rambling. That doesnt coaunt as a rebuttal.
As mentuioned before Agreements dont last forever especially when governments are involved. (read the Senator’s leter to Iran for a modern day example)So sorry to have to burst your uninformed bubble (again).
ubiquitin -“Lol health, youve rebutted nothing.
Youve made falsdraftinglaims and backed them up with dishonest rambling. That doesnt coaunt as a rebuttal.”
You keep on with your total nonsense!
“As mentuioned before Agreements dont last forever especially when governments are involved. (read the Senator’s leter to Iran for a modern day example)So sorry to have to burst your uninformed bubble (again).”
Why don’t you ask R’ S. Auerbach? He’s a member of Degel, but he says you can’t now vote
Gimmel because the Israeli gov. renegaded on their agreement on drafting Yeshiva Bochrim!
I hold like Brisk & Satmar, but even the Agudah people are starting to wake up!
Health, each of your posts are more dishonest and of topic than the previous one. congrats!
“You keep on with your total nonsense!”
Care to elaborate for once?
“Why don’t you ask R’ S. Auerbach? He’s a member of Degel, but he says you can’t now vote”
source please, I suspect you made that up
“Gimmel because the Israeli gov. renegaded on their agreement on drafting Yeshiva Bochrim!”
source please, I suspect you made that up
Note: This is seperate from the previous likely made up point, though obviously related. It is only the second point that we have been discussing, The first point while interesting is only tangentially related to the subject at hand
“I hold like Brisk & Satmar,”
You do not hold like Satmar, Youd be run out of town if you were to tell anyone in Kiryas Yoel you consider the Early zionists in general and Ben Gurion in particular “honest” have you even read Vayoel Moshe?
kj chusid -“I can confirm what ubiqitin said in his last post”
Did you even read my posts? I was talking about the Medina, not anything I ever posted.
ubiquitin -“Health, each of your posts are more dishonest and of topic than the previous one. congrats!
Care to elaborate for once?”
If I elaborate, will you stop trying to manipulate e/o with your Zionist Shittas?
“Why don’t you ask R’ S. Auerbach? He’s a member of Degel, but he says you can’t now vote”
“source please, I suspect you made that up”
“Gimmel because the Israeli gov. renegaded on their agreement on drafting Yeshiva Bochrim!”
“source please, I suspect you made that up”
From YWN NEWS:
“Yahadut Hatorah Trying to Get Back Some of the Lost Voters (11 opinions)
[VIDEO IN EXTENDED ARTICLE] Facing a boycott at the polls from the Yerushalmi faction”
WHY? Because they supported the last gov., which voted in a law to draft Yeshiva Bochrim!
Health
“If I elaborate, will you stop trying to manipulate e/o with your Zionist Shittas?”
a. chas veshalom!
b. No where on this thread have I espoused any zionist shita. In fact zionsim can be the work of the sitrah achra combining all 50 sharei tumah in an effort to destro klal yisroel and every point I made (on this thread) would still hold true. All we are discussing on this thread is if those who support the draft now are more dishonest than the early zionists. All could be Reshaim Gemurim, that doesnt change the point at hand.
yo””Yahadut Hatorah Trying to Get Back Some of the Lost Voters (11 opinions)
[VIDEO IN EXTENDED ARTICLE] Facing a boycott at the polls from the Yerushalmi faction”
does not say he said not to vote for Gimmel.
“WHY? Because they supported the last gov., which voted in a law to draft Yeshiva Bochrim! “
Of course they oppose the draft. This isnt what we are discussing. For arguments sake, I oppose the draft too! we are discussing whether the original agreement should remains in force for all eternity and if by Now supporting the draft, the NRP are “dishonest”
ubiquitin -“does not say he said not to vote for Gimmel.
Of course they oppose the draft. This isnt what we are discussing.”
Your dreaming again! From YWN news:
Lol Health! That one cracked me up,
You lft out the first line of the story you quoted :”After much debate and endless discussion on the matter, HaGaon HaRav Shmuel Auerbach Shlita has rendered his final decision regarding elections for 20th Knesset. …” This was posted yesterday 3/16. A few days AFTER you claimed he said to boycott. You are a hilariously dishonest individual.
At any rate, this is a side matter, The main issue is whether supporting the draft now is “dishonest” You attributed this absurd view to R’ Aurbach, and have et to provide a source for it.
ubiquitin – You’re the one who’s dishonest & trying to manipulate e/o! Even though he didn’t say not to vote until the very last minute, most people knew what he held without that. You’re trying very hard to say I’m wrong. WHY?
Is it because you’re feeling guilty??!?
Health
guilty? over what?
“You’re trying very hard to say I’m wrong. WHY?”
Its simple. There are many different threads on a variety of topics in coffee room. I dont comment on most of them since, on most topics even if I disagree witha poster, I see how reasonable people can disagree So I dont bother. I leave it as “agree to disagree” without actually going through the motions.
The threads I comment on things that are so illogical or nutty or simply factually incorrect that I do not believe reasonable people can disagree. (Obviously there are (a few exceptions).
In fact one of the threads that first got me commenting was on a math equation. It was an elementary school level problem that involved order of operations. See here :
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-x-0
People where actually arguing! There were several answers given. Even after the correct answer was explained. There STILL where those insisting a wrong answer was correct. There is no “Agree to disagree” OR my favorite response there, “It depends on how you perceive [it]” No! the answer is 14. any other answer is simply wrong.
Or another example, which I beleive you agree on is that of vaccines. It is not a discussion where we can “agree to disagree” Blaming Autism on vaccines is simply wrong. PEriod. I’d be happy to explain ad nauseum why it is wrong. As I recall youve argued regarding vaccines too. You’e tried very hard to say others are wrong. WHY?
Is it because you’re feeling guilty??!?
I doubt it.
Back to the subject at hand. I dont think Ive ever argued (on YWN) regarding Zionism or the draft. Those or both topics about which reosanable people can disagree. However your comment:
“The Herzl Zionists agreed that Frum people don’t have to go to the army. Nowadays – the “Religious Zionists” which Biyet Hayehudi (NRP – Mizrachi) is part of the gov., passed the law forcing e/o to be drafted!”
Was so absurd for several different reasons as outlined previously, that it is not something about which reasonable people can disagree. So before completely writing you off as unreasonable, I shall point out over and over how foolsih your original statement was.
ubiquitin -“Health
guilty? over what?”
Over the fact that even R’ S. Auerbach was angry at the last gov.!
“As I recall youve argued regarding vaccines too. You’e tried very hard to say others are wrong. WHY?
Is it because you’re feeling guilty??!?
I doubt it.”
Simply because readers will try to emulate the Anti-vax group!
“However your comment:
“The Herzl Zionists agreed that Frum people don’t have to go to the army. Nowadays – the “Religious Zionists” which Biyet Hayehudi (NRP – Mizrachi) is part of the gov., passed the law forcing e/o to be drafted!”
Was so absurd for several different reasons as outlined previously, that it is not something about which reasonable people can disagree. So before completely writing you off as unreasonable, I shall point out over and over how foolsih your original statement was.”
The Truth hurts – doesn’t it? The Herzl Zionists were better than nowadays Zionists [- the “Religious Zionists” which are Biyet Hayehudi (NRP – Mizrachi)]!
Health
“The Truth hurts – doesn’t it? The Herzl Zionists were better than nowadays Zionists [- the “Religious Zionists” which are Biyet Hayehudi (NRP – Mizrachi)]! “
As explained to you it isnt the truth. You are dishonest.
“Over the fact that even R’ S. Auerbach was angry at the last gov.!”
Nope I’m not one of his followers, never was. It is no different than the Satmar’ Rav Shita. I didnt feel guilty then I dont feel guilty now.
ubiquitin -“Health
As explained to u it isnt truth. You are dishonest.”
“Religious Zionists” (Oxymoron) which includes you, are the only ones who are dishonest!
“Nope I’m not one of his followers, never was. It is no different than the Satmar’ Rav Shita. I didnt feel guilty then I dont feel guilty now”
That was my whole point! A lot of people are starting to see that the Brisker Rov was right about Zionism & Zionists.
Health more dishonesty. I did explain to you why you’re idea that agreements last forever is absurd, you have yet to respond to that
(“As mentioned before Agreements dont last forever especially when governments are involved. (read the Senator’s leter to Iran for a modern day example)So sorry to have to burst your uninformed bubble (again).”
You then replied with a non-sequitor about R” Shmuel Aurbach and then more non-sequitors about feeling guilty.You never replied to my point. I, of course easily responded to every unrelated point you made, but dont lose track of the original thread)
Now you are shifting gears again, but of course I will patiently explain to you how wrong you still are.
“That was my whole point! A lot of people are starting to see that the Brisker Rov was right about Zionism & Zionists.”
That was not your point!
Let me bring you up to speed since you are having trouble following your own train of thought (again)
You claimed I feel guilty that R’ S Aeurbach now sees the Brisker Rav as right.
I pointed out that this isnt a reason to feel guilty since I am not one of his followers.
You now either a. forgot what your point was or b. are changing it to a new similarly irrelevant point. one which you have been doing this entire thread.
Two other points:
a. R’ S Aurbach can hardly be called “a lot of people” Please see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/293145/photo-essay-admorim-and-rabbonim-voting-in-eretz-yisroel-on-election-day-2015-photos-by-jdn.html
and here:
b. If the draft gets revoked and R’ S Aurbach supports voting in the next election would that be him changing his mind regarding Zionsim and now viewing the Brisker Rav as wrong?
Everybody’s missing the point of this thread.
RebYidd23, do you mean this?
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/im-anti-zionist-now/page/2#post-560064
ubiquitin -“Health more dishonesty. I did explain to you why you’re idea that agreements last forever is absurd, you have yet to respond to that”
Your misinterpretation is because you’re trying to manipulate the readers here. I never said “agreements last forever”! Somehow you think that I implied that.
“Now you are shifting gears again, but of course I will patiently explain to you how wrong you still are.
That was not your point!
Let me bring you up to speed since you are having trouble following your own train of thought (again)”
More nonsense!
“b. If the draft gets revoked and R’ S Aurbach supports voting in the next election would that be him changing his mind regarding Zionsim and now viewing the Brisker Rav as wrong?”
Stop with your manipulation to promote Zionism!
Thanks dearest Health, your last point cracked me up while at the same time providing examples of your dishonesty and evading questions:
Earlier you said:
“they made an agreement. Who says they wouldn’t abide by the agreement, even though it’s 2015?” … “Do you think that the US Constitution lasts forever? The agreement from the founding leaders in Israel, called the “status-quo” is like the Constitution!” (both are verbatim from your own words)
So yes if that isnt outright saying that agreements last forever it is certainly implying such
Now you say:”I never said “agreements last forever”! Somehow you think that I implied that.”
🙂
(As an aside, if you (correctly) dont view government agreements as lasting forever, how long do they last? a year? a decade? A generation? until circumstances change? or until overruled by the legislature/court?)
I then asked you
“If the draft gets revoked and R’ S Aurbach supports voting in the next election would that be him changing his mind regarding Zionsim and now viewing the Brisker Rav as wrong?””
Please note that like most of my points pointing out how flawed your “logic” is, you simply ignored it while repeating it as if you were addressing it.
People asked for the source of the Chazon Ish’s statement of two generations of full-time learning. I don’t know if it’s written anywhere, but my Rosh Yeshiva, R’ Bender shlita, once told me that the Chazon Ish said it.
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