If you've read "NASI Project Responds", have you changed your mind?

aries, DY, if the supply is the girl who signed the contract and is in fact prepared to pay the bucks, then the shadchan should not be hung up with the boy who does not necessarily have to sign a contract. She is chasing down the boys. They are in demand. So your little scenario is a false pretense and totally inaccurate.

Okay, you got me on a technicality, but the scenario would be equally ludicrous if the conversation was with the girls’ parents.

Are you DYs alter ego?

“DY’s point is that even if every single Jewish boy in the world would get married, there will still be Jewish girls left over for no one to marry.”

I think you meant to say there will still be jewish girls left over with no one to marry, but I don’t want to put words in your mouth.

DY: WADR to BTguy, I believe his main issue is that we should not be manipulating the system at all. Assuming shaddchonim (and others proposing shidduchim) have the best interests of the couple in mind, the shaddchan proposes what he/she thinks is the best shidduch. To pay out so that the second best shidduch is proposed does sound wrong.

apushatayid, Why don’t we ask her what she advocated instead of assuming.

Because she already told us. It’s not an assumption.

Hefker socializing? Where is that said, except in your response?

apushatayid,

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-youve-read-nasi-project-responds-have-you-changed-your-mind/page/4#post-321105

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-youve-read-nasi-project-responds-have-you-changed-your-mind/page/4#post-321428

DY, I hear your point, but if I am not mistaken, NASI adds about a thousand dollars for each year. In essence they are making it a commodities market when a 22 year old is charged a thousand more than a 21 year old. AND, the shadchanim are saying it takes more work??? I am sorry, but I think this is a big mistake and a disgrace.

I offer the following solution.

1. If a shadchen thinks a good match is 22 or 23, the family of the boy should not embarrass itself by saying they are only interested in a 21 year old. If that is what the family wants, then the BOYS family pays that surcharge. You do not charge our 22 year old girls an extra grand over the 21 year olds. How shallow!

I think someone at NASI had an idea to respond to the age thing being top priority, but they made a big mistake in going with it.

Actually, NASI is just reacting to a problem where age, by a matter of even a year, is the most valued trait. Its like they are telling our girls they can’t move them on the open market so they have to pay a surcharge. Again, make the boys family pay the surcharge if they place top priority on age as a compatibility variable, and we will see what a game changing idea this is.

Doswin: Exactly why I find it a disgrace that the attitudes have not changed. A wrong attitude leads to wrong actions. No? In fact, NASI may be starting a trend in the wrong direction that will further create and “shidduch crisis”.

A few leaders have spoken out, but I guess we will see what happens. Again, I am very embarrassed that our approach to building families has sunk to such a terrible level, which some may try to justify by saying that is what the boys want. When approaching such a critical area of Jewish life (marriage and family), an outlook like this kind of makes you wonder about the quality of learning and, more importantly, it’s effect on the individual.

In the long run, a boy who insists on age as the critical “character trait” is doing a favor to the older girl (and we are talking about a matter of a year) because such a view/decision right from the start, is the beginning of sharing a life with a boy/man who is exposed to the Holy Torah, and comes out the other end superficial. What’s going on?

To bring this to real terms: If you or I are offered to date someone the shadchen thinks is good for us and that girl happens to be 22, and we decline and say we are only interested in a 21 year old, then I have no respect for that at all.

And if us guys show so much lack of derech eretz for what the Shadchen suggests, to where we create a trend that results in imposing a thousand dollar charge on the girls, per year, to me, that is a huge chilul Hashem and not good for Klal Yisrael. NASI should not play into that as they may create a new, bad standard.

Very PUBLIC places, DY. I doubt a truly frum boy or girl would be likely to get into trouble under those circumstances. And if they WERE, then it could and would happen anywhere, unless they were kept in isolation from each other. We have to start trusting our young adults to behave with the proper derech in which we have raised them. Not talking to each other until they are redt a shidduch, is NOT making them frummer or better Jews (though I suppose you would disagree, and that’s fine, because you have your opinion and I have mine). I believe that over the last couple of decades this has in fact hampered many young people in their ability to grow up socially normally.

I understand that this is Yeshivishe way, and I can respect that philosophy, while absolutely disagreeing with its efficacy. We DO have a shidduch crisis today, and it is not IMO because of an age gap. It is because by the time people wake up and realize that they have grown much older while waiting for the right shidduch to finally be redt to them, they have missed the opportunity to meet people, possibly on their own, because it is “just not done that way.”

It is sad that we cannot respect our young people enough to trust them to have a decent conversation in a public place, what is wrong with a shul kiddush or a communal shabbaton?

Yes I am writing from a MO perspective, but my sons attend charedi yeshiva in EY where the behaviour of those from “stricter “backgrounds has surprised me. We are officially told no internet is allowed, so my son would not take a laptop or blackberry, we are told not to chat to girls in the street so my kid has developed a polite ” smile, nod and walk on ” to girls who recognise him and say hello. His friends however have internet connections, have asked him for introductions to those girls he says hello to, ( relatives and old family friends!) and have shown a remarkable ability to flout the system they are all so well aquaintainted with. It has been a real eye opener!

There are already plenty of singles events. That is not a chiddush, or the solution.

I insulted no one. I accept that the Yeshivah world has a derech that they follow that has certain hashkafos that are a little more stringent than others follow. I have met only a very few Yeshivish young men who actually knew how to start and hold a conversation with a female who was not his immediate relative. most of the young men whom I have mnet over the years, do NOT know how to talk to a girl. And sometimes the girls do not know how to talk to a guy. And yes, the non-Yeshivish world has its share, too, but in a different way.

The fact that so many mentors and facilitators seem to be necessary nowadays (and please do not try to tell me this is not so, I constantly see articles everywhere, that are being written by frum dating experts who keep advising their readers to find a good mentor to instruct them on how to act on a date), seems to indicate to me that young men and women who grow up in certain environments, often have poor social skills (not to mention manners). Is this true of ALL Yeshivish people??? Of course not! That WOULD be insulting to imply that. But in my experience, it is true of MANY.

And yes, many people do manage to marry and raise families,in spite of being socially inept.If you disagree, fine. That does not necessarily mean I am incorrect. I don’t generally make statements that are not based in my own personal observations. Your observations are apparently different from mine. And I have as much right to express my opinion as you do. I am sorry you feel I insulted the Yeshivah world, that certainly is not my intent. I am merely defending my position that socialization is not a bad thing, under controlled environments, and was the norm when I was growing up. And my generation had far less trouble getting married than does the present one. Draw your own conclusions.

DY Thank you for your comments and quotes.

I am NOT recommending unsupervised socialising! Chatting at a communal shabbaton or shul kiddush seem supervised controlled natural environments for a refined exchange.

Of course there is so much to admire in the yeshivish world, I am sure that is why so many kids from MO homes are drawn to yeshivish way of life, I as a parent support that and have seen it happen in my own back yard with PRIDE.

BUT there are problems in our communities as a whole which owe a lot to segregating the sexes from even exchanging a polite word to each other AND also being obsessed with material wealth. Yes it is an issue affecting our people we need to address. Shidduchim are affected by wealth and status, always have been and yes that is life, but for hundreds of years, Torah fearing men did not look at a partner and future mother of their children as a means of financial support.

To differentiate between young girls of 21 and 23 and use money as an incentive to find a match seems downright offensive. Yes shadchanim have always had a role and should be properly renumerated when so agreed, but a charitable organisation charging big bucks to get older girls married is basically saying money is the decisive factor. Just think of the message being sent out to the young, money talks! Yes it does in the goyish world but we are Jews and our Torah is not about big business it is about kavod, hesed and rachamim.

People wish to compare shadchanim to other services around, well in my family we are involved in law and medicine, when we come across a fellow Jew in dire straits urgently seeking our help, we do not CHARGE them. Simple.

i have been really shocked by the materialism I have encountered as some of our brethen eat in soup kitchens. I am not saying live like beggars but a bit of kavod to our fellow Jews instead of trying to keep up with the latest thing. Why does the Nasi scheme seems unsavoury? Because of how money and advantage will be used to influence and secure a shadchan’s efforts. Even more upsetting is the realisation a caring organisiation pandies to greed and business by offering bigger bucks to help match the more ” difficult older girls”. What happened to basic decency and helping someone out.

tahini,

It’s very admirable that you are proud of your children for becoming more “yeshivish”. Many parents whose children have done so are antagonistic towards them, and certainly are not proud. You must possess extraordinary character.

I nevertheless disagree with the rest of your post.

“Chatting at a communal shabbaton or shul kiddush” is no different than the mixed Tashlich decried by the poskim.

As I’ve explained, the money issue is not, IMO, insulting, just practical. It would be a nice ideal to say that even more difficult shadchanus should be done for free, but surely, if the older girls were indeed being focused on, there would be no need for this initiative.

It’s quite admirable that your relatives who are doctors and lawyers (who, it should be noted, are usually considerably more well off financially than full time shadchanim) occasionally do work pro-bono, but it’s unfair to demand that of others.

passfan,

??? ????. The ??? ???? says the same, and quotes the ??? ????? that the ??? ??? did not allow his daughters to go to Tashlich on R”H for this reason.

The ??? ???? and ??? ???? are standard commentaries on ??? ?????, printed in many editions and quoted by later poskim.

DY

Reading your post I realise the merit in agreeing to disagree.

With regard to having Yeshivish children, one is never too old to learn from one’s kids.

As for a career in law/medicine being financially secure and allowing one to waive fees with more regularity than a shadchan, this had an element of truth but of course depends on what you choose to specialise in. |In the Uk we have a state funded health service, the salary of a doctor without private patients is nothing to write home about, nor a lawyer if integrity and fair play enter the equation. We specialise in cases and teaching where monetary profit is not king. We have a family rule : never turn a poor Jew in need away. Why ? Because we had family who were saved by good people who were generous with their own meagre portions.

I recognise difficult situations where shadchanim must make lengthy inquiries etc which are time consuming to undertake without payment, but to actively use money as outright incentive seems wrong, when money is an incentive there are many inherent dangers.

If Shadchanim were offered incentives in the way of reduced tutition fees / or free shul membership that would not be half as unsavoury as quoting large sums of dollars . It should be remembered few shadchanim rely on their matchmaking skills to pay the rent. If you fancy studying law or medicine it means years of study/training, and if you are a frum Jew that can mean entering graduate school post yeshiva/kollel as a mature student with young family in the background. Hence the need for marriages made with respect and dignity to see you through the good and the bad times.

OFcourse:

I’ll allow you to anwser your own question but here’s something to consider:

From NASI:

The two goals of the program are:

B. To bring as much attention as possible to the young women who have been dating more than 6/7 years, thus affording them every opportunity to find their zivug.

If I were Jonathan Swift (“Gulliver’s Travels”)I would probably write an updated version of “A Modest Proposal” and suggest that parents simply eat half of all the baby girls born, so as to ensure that there will be enough boys to go around for the rest of the girls. But I am neither Jonathan nor too Swift these days, so I will refrain from trying to figure out how to bridge the numbers (not age) gap.

NASI is not concerned about fixing the problem. They are exploiting the problem for financial gain, and in essence, permanently embedding the problem by creating a new standard, which I hope others will not follow. Raising the price on a proper match for someone, by the year, is obscene.

No matter how people feel about this, the tumult alone is a sign that something is wrong with this program. Just because some really really like it and say the understand it, does mitigate the fact that many of us do not like it one tiny bit.

The boys and their families should chill out on the age thing, for the sake of the daughters. Good things will happen if they do that.

how many girls signed up, as desperate as they are!!!!?

You would have to ask NASI that, I have no idea.

Dear NASI people. i think i misunderstood this whole thing!!! the crisis is not just for the older girls, then maybe just maybe NASI would make some sense but the regular 19 20 yr olds still cant get a yes from the boys because of a. the mother’s are too (whatever) and b. the boys are staying in Israel too long. Again, no one has explained to me what has changed. the target yeshiva boy in Litvish circles was always 23 and girls 19.20. You cant tell me that all of a sudden G=d decided to create more or less of one kind. That is ridiculous!!!

jl, the crisis is not just for the older girls, then maybe just maybe NASI would make some sense but the regular 19 20 yr olds still cant get a yes from the boys

Because there are more of them than 23-24 tear old boys. The cause, age gap coupled with an increasing population. The solution NASI proposes, to close the age gap, would do wonders to affect that girls could get a yes. You were correct when you said, “i think i misunderstood this whole thing!!!”

Again, no one has explained to me what has changed. the target yeshiva boy in Litvish circles was always 23 and girls 19.20.

I’m really not sure when this problem began; it seems to me that there was a gender imbalance twenty years ago, and probably earlier; I became aware of the fact that it is an effect of age gap/population increase over a decade ago (I don’t know how long before that others understood the issue). If this gender disparity was not always a factor (which I don’t know for a fact is true), the could could be attributed to increased rate of population growth.

AZ, do you know when this problem began?