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It would just be so much simpler (and cheaper) if we just brainstormed amongst ourselves and made shidduchim!!!
modche1-
I feel bad saying this but the reputation and treatment that professional shadchanim live with is both earned and deserved.
A shadchan is supposed to set two people up and be a go between. A shadchan is not supposed to do the research, lie, stalk, twist arms, threaten and be a psychologist. (I’ll stop there in order to not give any ideas to any shadchanim who may be reading this.)
onTheList-
How did you get on the list? AZ said he didn’t take a single cent yet?
The drastic measures you mention could be as simple as NOT teaching our children from Day One that it is so assur and untsniusdig to talk to the opposite gender, that they must always be segregated from each other, rather than having mixed properly supervised events where they can meet and socialize.
And none of us can presume to know who will get Olam Haba. I think the emotional onaa that this “project” is putting on financially strapped people, would suggest otherwise to me and to a whole bunch of people whom I know, who have been floored after reading of this “innovative idea.”
jl, why on earth do they need it up front
To be blunt, shadchanim are more likely to invest time in a shidduch if they aren’t afraid of getting stiffed.
and why is the girl paying both sides shadchanus.?
I don’t think this exempts the boys’ side from shadchanus, but the extra money from the girls’ side is because of the laws of supply and demand.
and why that much?
Again, to be blunt, it’s much harder to find a shidduch for an older girl because they’re generally more choosy, so a larger incentive is needed.
Its simple really…
What’s simple? Kashe zivugam k’krias Yam Suf…
THe bigger problem, is the disconnect between the boys’ lists and girls sitting week after week without a yes. Thats the problem that needs to be solved,
Otherwise known as age gap…
not forcing 20 yr old boys to marry 24 yr old girls which is ridiculous. at best!
No that’s not the problem, although it would be a solution! However, nobody’s forcing anyone.
“oomis,
In an earlier post, I explained why I don’t think they’re comparing themselves to Eliyahu Hanavi. “
I read the article AND the follow up response (and I am sure they never expected to see SUCH a violent reaction, because people who think they have THE one and only clue, never think they could be mistaken), and I stand by what I said. The writer compared their circumstance to EH”N by asking if EH”N would say such and such would they not RUN to do it? Yeah, IF it was EH”N. But they are no E”HN OR even Jack Kennedy (for those who get this political debate reference).
It sounded to us like a hubris-filled comparison. They are not a navi whose brachos guarantee the desired benefit, but rather a monetarily demanding group that hides under the umbrella of being a “project” that is oh, so helpful. And Eliyahu Hanavi wouldn’t ask for money. He would ask for Kiyum haTorah.
jl, It would just be so much simpler (and cheaper) if we just brainstormed amongst ourselves and made shidduchim!!!
That does happen often, but it has no effect on the age gap issue. That won’t be solved unless there’s a focus on closer-in-age shidduchim, regardless of whether or not a professional shadchan is involved.
oomis,
The drastic measures you mention could be as simple as NOT teaching our children from Day One that it is so assur and untsniusdig to talk to the opposite gender, that they must always be segregated from each other, rather than having mixed properly supervised events where they can meet and socialize.
One of the most common negative reactions to NASI (both projects) seems to be based on negativity towards the whole idea of using shadchanim.
Firstly, this is a time honored minhag in klal Yisroel, firmly rooted in the Torah’s ideals of tznius.
Secondly, it has not been demonstrated that if left to choose their own mates, singles would be more likely to choose one closer in age than those who go through shadchanim. AFAIK, the gender disparity is at least equally large among the more modern crowd, which by all accounts suffers terribly from an overwhelming number of older singles.
Neither I nor any of my friends, all frum, all balabatish, met their zivugim through shadchanim such as in the NASI Project. I am not opposed to shadchanim per se, but I am opposed to the process that it has become.
We do not live in the times that existed when Yenta the Matchmaker did her job. Women have jobs, are educated, and do not sit in the house with their kids anymore (though I personally am in favor of being a stay at home mom, but that’s for another discussion). What was done then, was done because matches were made for ALL people, even non-Jews. there was no other way for marriages to be made. That does not mean it is the ONLY right way to make matches. Yaakov Avinu and Rochel had Hashem for their Shadchan. So did Rabbi Akiva and his Rochel.
Blind dates have been set up by friends, family members, teachers, Rabbis and Rebbetzins all along. I have zero opposition to that type of shadchan. I object to THIS type of shadchan, where it is patently obvious to anyone who can read, that money IS the determining factor. “They’ll work much harder for a 30 year old girl for $13K than if she paid only 6K like a younger girl.” How debasing and how lacking in middos this sounds. And the 35-40 year old boys who are not married, or are divorced – they are NOT having trouble finding a shidduch????? And what if they are divorced or widowed with children – should the price go up exponentially? This whole thing makes me feel so sad and VERY disturbed. And I am not alone in my reaction – even AFTER reading that half-baked explanation. BTW, who wrote that explanantion article – I don’t recall seeing his/her name anywhere…?
Daas Yochid, you have not properly addressed my comment that the disconnect is that the boys have twenty or so on their list and the girls can hardly get a yes. that is not an age gap thing. neccesarily/ part of that is that mothers of boys protecting their heilige bochurle are not treating the girls with respect. they cast them aside hap hazardly because they know there are plenty of others where that came from The only answer i see here is to put the girls into the “freezer” until 21 but i just dont see that happening in reality.
oomis, Yaakov Avinu and Rochel had Hashem for their Shadchan. So did Rabbi Akiva and his Rochel.
We can hardly compare ourselves to them; nor do we dare in any wat associate them with the singles’ events which you referred to; clearly the proper guidelines for marriage, as set down by the gedolim in all generations, is not to allow certain types of socializing.
Blind dates have been set up by friends, family members, teachers, Rabbis and Rebbetzins all along.
We’re in agreement; I don’t necessarily have a preference for a “professional” shadchan.
I object to THIS type of shadchan, where it is patently obvious to anyone who can read, that money IS the determining factor. “They’ll work much harder for a 30 year old girl for $13K than if she paid only 6K like a younger girl.” How debasing and how lacking in middos this sounds.
A fine ideal, but I would be loath to stand on principle at the expense of the suffering of b’nos Yisroel which might be alleviated though this measure.
And the 35-40 year old boys who are not married, or are divorced – they are NOT having trouble finding a shidduch?????
For the most part, their problem is not getting redt shidduchim, it’s “finding the right one” (or, to be cynical, commitment issues), which is not addressed by NASI.
This initiative does no more than motivate the potential for a shidduch to be presented. Many girls, nebach, wait for months at a time before even hearing a name; the boys generally have no shortage of names.
In theory, yes, but “im kein ein l’dovor sof”!
This whole thing makes me feel so sad and VERY disturbed.
The idea of so many girls who are otherwise (al pi teva) destined to live out their lives without marrying and raising a family saddens and disturbs me.
BTW, who wrote that explanantion article – I don’t recall seeing his/her name anywhere…?
That’s not too hard to figure out; it’s not much of a secret who’s behind all of this, but I don’t feel at liberty to give you the name since he chooses anonymity on this site (although he’s been quoted by name in the media). Sorry. (A bit of googling might help you, though.)
Dr. Pepper-i reserved my slot on the list, to be part of the first 50 and not have to pay the $500 fee, but they won’t take a dime yet until everything is in order.
“I think the emotional onaa that this “project” is putting on financially strapped people,”
What about tuition? Should that be reduced too- or be free? Isn’t that putting a strain on struggling families? Health care? Cost of living?
This is a necessity like any other.
In case you haven’t noticed, the older single who post here don’t seem to mind-The people who are standing on the sidelines offer criticism but no viable solution.
For all of you who keep thinking that the man behind this is remaining hidden-CALL the NUMBER on the ad and you’ll reach a wonderful secretary who will tell you the name of who is running this. Simple as that. Its so not sketchy as so many of you are making it out to sound!
jl, Daas Yochid, you have not properly addressed my comment that the disconnect is that the boys have twenty or so on their list and the girls can hardly get a yes. that is not an age gap thing.
I have addressed it. It IS an age gap thing – supply and demand.
oomis1105
Thank you for your post, the financial aspect of the whole project is what is so disturbing indeed, it also can affect judgement and expectation when a match is finally made.
“I think the emotional onaa that this “project” is putting on financially strapped people,”
What about tuition? Should that be reduced too- or be free? Isn’t that putting a strain on struggling families? Health care? Cost of living?
This is a necessity like any other.
In case you haven’t noticed, the older single who post here don’t seem to mind-The people who are standing on the sidelines offer criticism but no viable solution.
I agree. If you can’t pay full tuition, you should beg borrow cheat or steal to get it. Why should tuition be any worse than a shaddchan!
🙂
I have addressed it. It IS an age gap thing – supply and demand.
And as others have pointed out, Age gap is only part of the lack of supply. Removal of supply (by “full time support” & “not Kovea Itim / minyan every day”) is also, if not as, important.
As we are organising the Vort for children’s forthcoming engagement we will also be having a separate informal l’chaim for our children’s friends.
Maybe I am idealistic or living on a ” fantasy island” but as I do get busy planning our children’s weddings I have always made time to think of their single friends and arrange informal introductions at a celebratory party, nothing staged, just young frum people getting together to celebrate a friend’s happiness. As we do not mix at our weddings, a casual l’chaim offers the chance to meet someone suitable. It is a perfect avenue for young people to meet and can be a relaxed setting for those less confident to meet a potential partner.
I know it can work, as it has done before, with one chuppah leading to another.I am not alone in doing this, I suspect it has been done since time immemorial. Of course official shadchanim have their role to play too, it needs to be handled delicately.
Blaiming the so called shidduch crises on an alleged age gap can be compared to blaiming the so called unemployment crises on lack of job qualification.
There are always jobs for people who want to work, The job will perhaps not be the one that the candidate is ideally looking for, and maybe not the glamore or salary he seeks; but there is always a job available. And most times, working hard at this job will ultimately produce the desired results and satisfaction.
It’s same thing with shidduchin. There are lots of opportunities and candidates. They might not be the ideal person that one seeks, but by working on the marriage every day (which is required for all successful marriages); the marriage will be happy and successful.
gavra_at_work, And as others have pointed out, Age gap is only part of the lack of supply. Removal of supply (by “full time support” & “not Kovea Itim / minyan every day”) is also, if not as, important.
There are plenty of girls who are not makpid on “Kovea Itim / minyan every day”, I have no idea whether the percentage of those girls is the same as the percentage of boys who don’t keep them. Age gap, though, is a definite issue. And I don’t know if it’s wise for a girl to give up on her hakpadah for “Kovea Itim / minyan every day”; these are very important things. Fixing the age gap doesn’t carry the same down side.
Full time support is usually the boys’ demand, not the girls’, so it’s actually, to a large degree, caused or increased by the age gap issue. If there was not an “oversupply” of girls, only the very strong learners would have such financial requirements. As things stand now, even boys who might be better off going to work sooner are able to ask for long term support.
Focusing on “older” girls would have the side benefit of lowering the financial strain on parents, because these girls are generally more advanced in her career, with higher income and more savings.
DY: Cherrybim put it well; I have nothing to add to the “Kovea Itim” point. JCP, WalMart & Target are hiring. You may not get exactly what you wanted, but at least you will have a job. And yes, there may be very good reasons why not to take the job, but
then you have to look in the mirror and make up your mind that a job is not worth it (which it very well may not be).
As far as “full time support”, we agree that it reduces supply to those that can not afford. Increased demand may be part of the cause of the expectation, but once everyone expects, the girls that do support (without giving up the new car) are limited.
This is more of a demand and supply problem.
What percentage of boys demand X level of support. What percentage of girls (or their families) are able to meet this level of demand.
What percentage of girls demand the next Rosh Yeshiva. What percentage of boys are available to meet this demand.
Insert your own demand and then see what percentage of the opposite gender is available to meet that demand. Now compile a list of all your demands. The percentage gets even smaller.
Perhaps people should stop demanding so many things and they would find an adequate available supply.
I am sorry, but I still think this whole thing is disgusting and is more like the commodities market or finding the right shoes for the right dress than it is actually for two people to find the person they really like and want to spend the rest of their lives with, building a future for generations.
The tone of this whole thing is undignified and wrong. Then when you see analysis comparing someone solely by the variable on being in their very low 20’s versus approaching their mid 20’s, and setting a price on that, I have to say this entire thing is absurd and this organization should be ashamed for putting an actuarial outlook to human beings and family life.
In the deli they charge by the pound. For a future wife and mother, you dont charge by the year. Disgusting!!
DY, you make it sound like the whole problem is the Shadchanim being afraid of getting stiffed, so it is really all about the money. Don’t shadchanim have contracts that they sign with their clients and if not why not? Wouldn’t that solve the problem to begin with? Many famous shadchanim charge $10,000 for their services and they do get paid from both parties. No one would renegs on a signed contract.
When one provides a service, they are entitled to have a contract like any other business if in fact they are running a business. But it should be run as a legitimate business then and it should NOT be considered a “gift” it should be considered a payment. Because after all as you describe it, it is a business and it is work, a lot of work just like any other job. So if this is a legitimate business, it should be run as such. A service is being provided and a contract should be written. A shadchan charges a certain amount of money. Big money and should collect if they are successful. They should also report the earnings on their income taxes because after all, this is a legitimate job that takes up most of their time that they work so hard at. It is not done l’shem mitzvah for charity, it is done to earn parnasah and therefore it is subject to income tax.
If all this is on the up and up, are all these shadchanim involved in the project honest and forthright? They put forth the logical reasons why they deserve more money for older girls and claim how much harder they have to work. They claim this is real work and real jobs and they should get paid real salaries for their work. So I was wondering, if they are accepting real pay for their jobs are they paying taxes on it like the rest of us? Because the girls who are out working hard for their money certainly are paying taxes on their hard earned money that they are being k’nassed for every additional year they are working.
I am sorry, but I still think this whole thing is disgusting and is more like the commodities market or finding the right shoes for the right dress than it is actually for two people to find the person they really like and want to spend the rest of their lives with, building a future for generations.
The tone of this whole thing is undignified and wrong. Then when you see analysis comparing someone solely by the variable on being in their very low 20’s versus approaching their mid 20’s, and setting a price on that, I have to say this entire thing is absurd and this organization should be ashamed for putting an actuarial outlook to human beings and family life.
In the deli they charge by the pound. For a future wife and mother, you dont charge by the year. Disgusting!!
Your approach is called “head in the sand”. It is mistakenly thought to be used by the ostrich, when being faced by a lion. In order to avoid being eaten, the ostrich sticks its head in the sand. If it can not see the lion, it is thought, then the lion can not see it, and the lion can not eat the ostrich.
Fact is, we have a problem. Denial will certainly get us nowhere. You may disagree with the proposed solution (I do as well), but there is still a problem, and putting an actuarial outlook to human beings and family life defines the problem well.
Maybe boys should be listed up for auction by their preference and see who the highest bidders are:
This guy wants only a size two, any size two’s out there, lets start the bidding.
This guy wants only wealthy because he has no way to make a living, lets start the bidding.
This guy wants to sit and learn and be supported the rest of his life, do I hear a house? a car?
This one wants a model, perfection in every way, without a brain in her head, a complete “yes” girl, anyone out there?
This guy is 5’7″ tall, he doesn’t want a short girl, but he doesn’t want anyone taller than he is, so he wants someone that is exactly 5’5″ with a one inch heel.
This one is a little overweight, okay about 100 lbs over, but he wants a size two, who will start the bidding…..
aries2756:
You are discribing the current system (for many players) well.
In case you haven’t noticed, the older single who post here don’t seem to mind-The people who are standing on the sidelines offer criticism but no viable solution. “
Just because you haven’t seen an older “single” post (to your knowledge), does not mean that they do not VERY MUCH mind. My friends and I have daughters who could fit into that category (by the NASI Project’s definition), and they are outraged, every one of them. When making dollars and cents is more important than making kallahs and sense, we have lost our focus of what is truly Derech Hashem.
“We can hardly compare ourselves to them; nor do we dare in any wat associate them with the singles’ events which you referred to; clearly the proper guidelines for marriage, as set down by the gedolim in all generations, is not to allow certain types of socializing.”
We are not comparing ourselves to them. We are noting that meeting shidduchim on our own has happened in history, and has been totally acceptable. I will point out that most normal types of socializing were always considered halachically acceptable in my generation and that of my parents and grandparents. It was not until the recent decades that it suddenly became fashionably ossur for girls and boys to have a normal conversation together, whether after Shul, in a pizza place, waiting for a bus, IN COLLEGE,etc. or to play together as children, to sit at a Shabbos table and talk.
This is a “proper guideline” for segregation, and mystifying human interaction. It has actually caused boys and girls to need “mentoring” as to how to conduct themselves on a date and how to simply talk to each other. No one would need mentors, if they had been handed these tools in the course of their childhood and adolescence.
Whether or not you agree (and clearly you do not), WE have created our own shidduch crisis, by failing to encourage and allow our kids to develop male/female relationships and friendships in a normal way within the bounds of halacha. There was NEVER such a problem in marrying off our children as there exists today. And Shadchanim whose main motivator is money, are NOT a solution.
oomis1105- “And Shadchanim whose main motivator is money, are NOT a solution.”
Why is everybody so hung up about the money aspect of the Nasi project, when that is not even the main thrust of their proposition. They are pushing closing the age gap as a permanent solution, and the money as a temporary solution- a band aid.
oomis1105
You hit the nail on the head, thank you!
We have indeed blurred the lines for the young generation of what is and is not appropriate behaviour and mixing of the sexes. Chatting at a shabbat table or a shul kiddush is hardly inappropriate for young people going to college or entering work.
No wonder people have huge shopping list of unrealistic requirements if they never have a conversation with a member of the opposite sex. If you speak to someone you makes you laugh the size of their wallet, weight or status is not always upper most in your mind! By treating marriage like a business investment, we are making young people and our whole community money obsessed to a shocking degree, this affects countless marriages afterwards, not a good way to start married life.
I was mocked for saying as our kids get married we try and think of their single friends, but we have seen at least four shidduchim take place as a result of introducing young people to one another at our simchas. We always make a young peoples l’chaim for every simcha, so allowing chosson and challa friends to meet up, they do and we have seen results. Age differences of a couple of years do not seem so noticeable when you actually MEET the person first before you hear their resume.
We are talking about people not commodities,parents should be wary of talking about future dates as lists of required ingredients, too much segregation and too little respect for actual Jewish youth lead both sides to view the other in an unsavoury and unnatural way.
cherrybim, Blaiming the so called shidduch crises on an alleged age gap can be compared to blaiming the so called unemployment crises on lack of job qualification.
Only if you allow polygamy. Otherwise it would be comparable to 20 people applying for 18 jobs; no matter how qualified they may be, two will remain unemployed.
gavra_at_work, Increased demand may be part of the cause of the expectation, but once everyone expects, the girls that do support (without giving up the new car) are limited.
Not a bad theory, but, in fact, the vast majority od boys do get married.
apushatayid, Perhaps people should stop demanding so many things and they would find an adequate available supply.
True on an individual basis, but NASI is addressing the communal problem of more available girls than boys.
aries, DY, you make it sound like the whole problem is the Shadchanim being afraid of getting stiffed, so it is really all about the money.
No, the main problem is that there are more available girls than boys. That point was addressing why the program calls fot the money to be put in escrow.
Don’t shadchanim have contracts that they sign with their clients and if not why not?
They don’t, AFAIK, but I can only imagine what a phone call from a shadchan would sound like:
“Hi, my name is Mrs. Flugenstein, and I’m calling about a possible shidduch for you son. She’s a wonderful girl – great middos, full of chein, bright, and personable. Her parents are wonderful people – pillars of their community. When can we meet?”
“Meet? What do you mean? Who’s the girl?”
“Sorry, I can’t tell you that until we sign a contract. Don’t forget to bring two eidim, and a signed affadavit from a recognized beis din certifying that they are kosher eidim”.
It is not done l’shem mitzvah for charity, it is done to earn parnasah and therefore it is subject to income tax.
Firstly, it’s not a contradiction to do something l’sheim shomayim but receive compensation for it. We would hope and assume that our rabbonim, rebbeim, mohelim, etc. are l’sheim shomayim, but they need to live. But that has nothing to do with paying taxes, which all need to do. Even someone who is a family friend and receives shadchanus gelt would need to report it (ask your local CPA).
Why do you assume that shadchanim pay taxes less than anyone else who runs a cash business? If you’re honest, you’ll pay, if not, you won’t, but it has nothing to do with what profession you are in.
oomis, When making dollars and cents is more important than making kallahs and sense, we have lost our focus of what is truly Derech Hashem.
Good line. The reason, however, for putting dollars into the equation, is in order to make kallahs. It’s not an end, it’s the means.
We are not comparing ourselves to them. We are noting that meeting shidduchim on our own has happened in history, and has been totally acceptable.
Not through single events, and not through hefker socializing. In your examples, Yaakov Avinu and Rochel Imeinu, and Rabbi Akiva and Rochel, they were not meeting many singles and deciding which one to marry; they knew exactly who they needed for their tafkid in life. To use them to support socializing is disingenuous, and insulting to these heilige people.
I will point out that most normal types of socializing were always considered halachically acceptable in my generation and that of my parents and grandparents.
If so, erroneously. We’ve been through a similar dicussion regarding untzniusdik dress. Without condemning anyone because we didn’t live through that nisayon, we can still say that it is objectively wrong l’halacha.
WE have created our own shidduch crisis, by failing to encourage and allow our kids to develop male/female relationships and friendships in a normal way within the bounds of halacha.
As I’ve said before, that’s NOT the problem, there are hundreds of single on the UWS who never had a problem socializing. It’s a matter of the numbers.
“male/female relationships and friendships in a normal way within the bounds of halacha.” An oxymoron.
And Shadchanim whose main motivator is money, are NOT a solution.
Why not? Money talks. That’s just reality.
“gavra_at_work, Increased demand may be part of the cause of the expectation, but once everyone expects, the girls that do support (without giving up the new car) are limited.
Not a bad theory, but, in fact, the vast majority od boys do get married.”
Of course, because they can marry 20 year olds!
Why is everybody so hung up about the money aspect of the Nasi project, when that is not even the main thrust of their proposition. They are pushing closing the age gap as a permanent solution, and the money as a temporary solution- a band aid.”
Because THAT is what the focal point has been. THEY made it that way. Period. Their agenda is so filled with mercenary expressions, that age becomes secondary and even tertiary, EXCEPT as a way of getting more shekels.
I am waiting for a Kol Korei to be issued by our Gedolim that ALL shadchanim have an achrayus to make at least 5 shidduchim each year for people who cannot afford to pay ONE CENT and who are difficult or challenging shidduchim for any reason (older, divorced or widowed with or w/o children, overweight, developmentally-challenged, etc.). But I am not holding my breath.
oomis, Because THAT is what the focal point has been. THEY made it that way. Period. Their agenda is so filled with mercenary expressions, that age becomes secondary and even tertiary, EXCEPT as a way of getting more shekels.
The last I checked, NASI hasn’t put a lien on anyone’s property. The only people who will lay out the money are those who think this is a good idea. If you don’t like the idea, don’t join the program. I think a Lexus is overpriced, so I drive a Ford. But I’m not upset at Lexus.
DaasYochid: “in fact, the vast majority od boys do get married.”
So do the vast majority of girls get married.
And don’t be so dismissal of aris2756’s suggestion of a contract (obligating payment upon by the wedding date) rather than making an upfront payment to NASI. NASI can collect contracts from parents instead of collecting $13,000 upfront from parents. Once NASI has the contract — without taking a dime — it can place those girls on this list. This would be much much better than demanding an upfront, multi-thousand dollars deposit.
gaw, Not a bad theory, but, in fact, the vast majority of boys do get married.”
Of course, because they can marry 20 year olds!
I’m not sure what you mean. My point is that the shidduch crises is not caused by the boys being able to make demands, however it likely resulted in the boys being able to make demands.
Doswin, So do the vast majority of girls get married.
Not as high a percentage as the boys.
Aries was not suggesting that NASI mediate a contract, but either way, a contract doesn’t guarantee fulfillment; an escrow is more of a surety.
oomis, I am waiting for a Kol Korei to be issued by our Gedolim that ALL shadchanim have an achrayus to make at least 5 shidduchim each year for people who cannot afford to pay ONE CENT and who are difficult or challenging shidduchim for any reason (older, divorced or widowed with or w/o children, overweight, developmentally-challenged, etc.). But I am not holding my breath.
Let’s also have a kol korei demanding everybody with a car devote at least ten hours a week giving rides to people who can’t afford a car service, and demanding at least ten hours a week from every able-bodied person to put together packages for Tomchei Shabbos, and ten hours a week for Chaverim.
Hi gavra-at-work.
I am not so sure whose head is in the sand, as you so delicately suggested.
In case you missed it. The problem I had said in many posts regarding shudduchim is attitude. Attitude (hashkafa) is the cause of this problem, and we should all be embarrassed. Attitude, while not a tangible thing, is still a noun, albeit abstract, and it exists in concept. Most people are expected to grasp abstract nouns.
It is not necessary for me to bring back all my points from all the various posts I made on this subject, but keep in mind, that primarily the problem with this is the attitude about two OTHER people determining if they are right for each other.
And if I had one point of rejection to that disgusting organization that stands out for me, as of late, it is the idea that a young lady of 23 has to have a value and price tag placed on her, for that very sole reason, (to the tune of about a thousand dollars) in comparison to someone 21 or 22. That, to me, is the definition is disgusting and no solution at all. It is a deli counter approach to the sanctity of family life. I suggest this organization is eroding the sanctity part of family life.
Also, 22 versus 23 has NOTHING to do with compatibility. It then becomes a situation of supply and demand; proving my point precisely. Disgusting!
It is a disgrace that our boys should be allowed to shop for a 21 year old over a 22 year old, and charge the 22 year old extra to be in the parsha.
Perhaps reread my reaction (as if there is nothing better to do..lol) and you will see a clear point of view addressing the problem.
gavra-at-work. I am very passionately against this organization, and your personal comment implied either apathy or ignorance, when you offered nothing in return.
“but NASI is addressing the communal problem of more available girls than boys”
Not to beat a dead horse. Until all boys are invited to this party, there will always be a shortage of boys. Nothing NASI does, no matter how large a financial carrot they dangle in front of shadchanim, if we eliminate those we have written off as “modern”, we will always have a “shortage”.
“Not through single events, and not through hefker socializing.”
Nobody advocated this. Classical immature arguments. Nothing to respond? Lets distort what the person wants to say and make them sound idiotic.
DY. “I think a Lexus is overpriced, so I drive a Ford. But I’m not upset at Lexus.”
Great analogy except I would compare it to a Honda Accord. Lexus implies overindulgence while Honda represents respectability – as apposed to trying to do things yishivish in order to save money at the expense of being effective and accomplishing the objective.
DY, if the supply is the girl who signed the contract and is in fact prepared to pay the bucks, then the shadchan should not be hung up with the boy who does not necessarily have to sign a contract. She is chasing down the boys. They are in demand. So your little scenario is a false pretense and totally inaccurate. She is the buyer in this case and looking for the merchandise. She need not be afraid that she will get “stiffed” because she knows that the girl will be paying a hefty sum. If the boy stiffs her, then there is really nothing she can do about it. On the other hand, if she was a professional shadchan who ran a real business, both boys and girls would be coming to her, and the first thing she should do would be look into her own pool of candidates and try to make a match within. Then she would get paid from both clients.
Parents who believe in shadchanim would go that route as long as they are dealing with responsible and professional people who do the legwork and don’t just drop names.
apushatayid: DY’s point is that even if every single Jewish boy in the world would get married, there will still be Jewish girls left over for no one to marry.
And regarding your second point, actually someone DID advocate exactly that. The poster DY was responding to with the comment you quoted.
And if I had one point of rejection to that disgusting organization that stands out for me, as of late, it is the idea that a young lady of 23 has to have a value and price tag placed on her, for that very sole reason, (to the tune of about a thousand dollars) in comparison to someone 21 or 22. That, to me, is the definition is disgusting and no solution at all. It is a deli counter approach to the sanctity of family life. I suggest this organization is eroding the sanctity part of family life.
Hello BTGuy 🙂
And I agree with the idea that a price tag based on age is repulsive (as if it has not already happened without NASI). However, your statement of:
this organization should be ashamed for putting an actuarial outlook to human beings and family life.
IMHO is incorrect. Quantifying the problem is critical to finding the solution. Now your opinion may be that there is no problem, or that you do not like any solution even though there is a problem. I don’t know what you see, but I see too many girls who want to get married (or even date) that are just getting older (and I’m talking about 28-32, not 21 year olds). I see that as a problem.
apushatayid, Until all boys are invited to this party, there will always be a shortage of boys. Nothing NASI does, no matter how large a financial carrot they dangle in front of shadchanim, if we eliminate those we have written off as “modern”, we will always have a “shortage”.
I can reverse that statement as well: Until the age gap issue is addressed, no matter how much the girls compromise on their ideals, there still will not be enough boys for them.
Our horses are beyond dead.
You didn’t, it was someone else who did. Although “hefker” was my commentary.
BTGuy, It is a disgrace that our boys should be allowed to shop for a 21 year old over a 22 year old, and charge the 22 year old extra to be in the parsha.
You don’t understand the program. It’s not the boys who get the extra money in the NASI program, it’s the shadchanim. You choose to view the program as devaluing the dignity of b’nos Yisroel by assigning them a monetary value (as do others), but I think it’s a misunderstanding – its simply more time consuming to complete a successful shidduch for an older girl, so the shadchanim are being reimbursed for their extra time.
If a doctor would prescribe a life saving medication for one patient, and perform a complex surgery on another, would you accuse him or her of valuing the latter’s life more than the former if the fees were higher?
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