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DY: (I’ve been pretty good) I don’t think R’ Shlomo Zalman’s statement is in any theologically problematic. That’s very practical. It’s the reason behind Bishul Akum. If you eat their food, you interact more and in more friendly ways, which leads to more intermarriage. If he said that eating Bishul Akum led to a metaphysically lower state that allowed for more intermarriage to exist, I’d be very troubled. But, as far as I know, he didn’t, so I’m okay. 🙂
Joseph: That’s exactly what I’m saying. Unless R’ Moshe held that the other Poskim were so wrong about it that they didn’t have a leg to stand on (which he did in the Manhattan Eruv case, so that point is moot), he would allow giving someone an item for them to carry (for them, not for you), and it wouldn’t be Lifnei Iveir or Mesay’ei’a to do so.
Isn’t there a difference between shabbos and other “issurim”?
On shabbos there are issues of daber davar and being neheneh from m’leches shabbos
I think Rabbi Ribiat says in his sefer that it is assur for these reasons to ask someone else to do something on shabbos which you yourself wouldn’t do (e.g. opening bottles)
Disclaimer: I might have made all of this up.
Would you say it is okay for someone who, like most, holds with the Psak of Rav Moshe and most contemporary poskim regarding an Eruv in NYC being assur and chillul Shabbos to carry, to give someone a package on Shabbos to carry within the Flatbush or Boro Park Eruv since the Flatbush and Boro Park Eruvs has on whom to rely?
It depends whether you hold the other shittah is reliable.
Goan
I don’t know that Rav Moshe considers it a kula. Certainly the story in the Rav Gerstner biography where he and rav Gerstner argue the point with the alter mirrers seems to imply the opposite.
The concept of chalev akum is based on sofek/chashash, even far fetched. Theoretically, if there was 0 chance of pigs milk there is no issur. Rav Moshe’s tshuva only says a baal nefesh should keep it, which as i understand those words, means its a worthy chumra.Motcha 11. You quoted the satmar rebbe saying that cholov stam is traif . Can you site that teshuva please. Btw the satmar rebbe also said and wrote that the medina avodah zarra and traif .
, Yet thousand of his chassidim there and use government monies and government resources. So just bear that in mind.Takes2: Satmar, Brisk, Eidah and others in Eretz Yisroel specifically and deliberately forgo accepting government funding that they’re legally entitled to, i.e. student tuition, yeshiva funding, etc. In short, they put their money where their mouth is. And they have every right to live in EY, so don’t bother starting with “but they walk on the streets the zionists paved [even though they didn’t ask them to pave it]”, etc.
Gaon
“Rav Moshe agrees that according to many poskim (Chasam Sofer, Pri Chadash) it is still considered Chalav Akum”this isnt correct. The Pri chadash holds that if we know that the milk is Kosher (for example only cows are around) there is no reason for a Jew to observe the milking and there is no issur or Chalav Akum. The vast majority of Poskim (including the chasam Sofer) do not hold this way and require a Jew to observe the milking.
R’ Mohse notes that we do not hold like te above mentioned Pri Chadash, and yet the government watching is as if we are watching and even according to the vast majority who require a Jew to watch in all cases, the government is ok.Of course others argue on R’ Moshe which would make the milk Chalav Akum ie treif.
In summary, regaridng milk in the US (what R’ Moshe calls “Chalav Hacompanies”
Acc PRi Chadash – Mutar the gezeira of Chalav akum doesnt apply. (This isnt accepted lehalacha)
Acc R’ Moshe – (Acccording to everybody other than Pri Chadash) Mutar – It is considered Chalav Yisroel (though bal nefesh yachmir)
Acc to those who argue on R’ Moshe – Assur it is Chaluv Akum ie treifEven if you take no direct government funding, they are still taking from the government
What Passport do the Satmars who live in Israel Use? Do they have Hungarian Passports or something else?
Do they walk the streets, do they ever call the police , Do they ever ride the buses. Tax Payer money pays for these things?
What currency do they use? Do Hungarian Forints works in Israel? Or if not, do they use Euro’s or Dollars?
Jeez. I scimmed over a few posts and the next thing I know people are arguing about government funding…
By the way, if there’s any hope of this thread getting back on track: some people keep chalav Yisroel l’chumra, not as a halachah. So, they would be fine with giving chalav stam to other or eating off of chalav stam equipment.
I doubt that’s a thing for Sherry Whisky or whatever.
NC
“I doubt that’s a thing for Sherry Whisky or whatever.”Of course it is.
for an excellent review Search for “Sherry Casks A Halachc perspective”
while the author comes out that it is assur he has have some tzaddim to be meikel and does note that some poskim are meikel“some people keep chalav Yisroel l’chumra, not as a halachah. So, they would be fine with giving chalav stam to other or eating off of chalav stam equipment.”
That’s true. As you know, Rav Moshe, who’se motter CS says a Baal Nefesh should be machmir. So such a Baal Nefesh could give CS to a non-Baal Nefesh.
But my earlier comments regarding it being prohibited for a strictly CY consumer to give CS food to a CS consumer was referring to those who hold by CY (and not CS) Al Pi Halacha, Al Pi the shittos (held by virtually all Chasidic poskim and many others) that CS is Cholov Akum mamish.
It’s inappropriate to argue halacha on what was supposed to be a fun thread. Have some respect.
There’s nothing more enjoyable than Torah/Halacha.
There’s nothing more irrelevant than that statement.
Ubiq,
You are correct about the Pri Chadash, acc to the Pri Chadash the heter is certainly legit. However I recall, Rav Moshe does quote the Chasam Sofer and argues on him. acc to the Chasam Sofer any milk that is not overseen by a Jew, is considered within the gezera of Chalav Akum, even if we know for sure there is no other milk around. Asides that, Rav Moshe is very clear that it’s a ” heter” and the ones relying” and makilim have a legit heter” but one should try to obtain Chalav Yisrael wherever he can (see vol 8 YD). Many poskim did argue on Rav Moshe’s chidush. The Chazon Ish has a heter on powdered milk only and didn’t rule so lehalacha. It has nothing with chasidus or not ( as one poster implied..)..in any case,my point wasn’t to go into the technical details, the point was that the ones not drinking in many cases are not just doing it as a mere Chumra.“It’s inappropriate to argue halacha on what was supposed to be a fun thread.”
Well, you do have a point, but what’s wrong with having “M & M” and Skitters in middle of learning? (or learning in middle of M & Ms…)
This discussion was already had on another thread anyway.
Lightbright:
How would you feel about throwing OU cottage cheese into the bowl, so that we can have a discussion about that too while we’re here?
Gaon
“However I recall, Rav Moshe does quote the Chasam Sofer and argues on him.”R’ Moshe is saying his chidush even in chasam Sofer. The Gist of R’ Moshe’s Chidush is that it is sort of an “Anan Sahadi” we are so sure that there is no treif milk mixed in that it is as if we watched it milked.
In his first teshuva on the subject YD 1:47 he begins by saying his heter does not rely on the Pri chadash rather that “ידיעה ברורה הוא כריאה ממש”
Though your main point “the point was that the ones not drinking in many cases are not just doing it as a mere Chumra.”Is of course completely correct.
Unless your Posek holds otherwise.
To get back on track, yes it is evil (now that you’ve explained your intent)
“Al Pi Halacha, Al Pi the shittos (held by virtually all Chasidic poskim and many others) that CS is Cholov Akum mamish.”
Interesting. Last summer, was in the checkout line at the shoprite of monticello and a chassidishe man had weight watchers ice cream bars in his cart. I thought perhaps he didnt clearly see the printed hechsher (maybe he thought it was soy) and pointed out that it was certified OU-D and since I assumed he only ate cholov yisroel, I was doing him a favor and pointing it out to him. He replied, he was aware, but, his wife was on a diet and he had a “heter from his rav in williamsburg” to purchase the non chalav yisroel ice cream for her. In truth, I didnt ask him to explain the heter, or to go into much detail. Either the guy was a liar, or his rav felt he wasnt much of a baal nefesh.
And a random guy in ShopRite dressed in Hasidic garb who claims he has a heter from an anonymous rabbi proves what?
There are legitimate heteirim to eat mamish non-kosher medicine or even foods on halachicly necessary circumstances.
“That’s true. As you know, Rav Moshe, who’se motter CS says a Baal Nefesh should be machmir. So such a Baal Nefesh could give CS to a non-Baal Nefesh.”
So I guess my good friend Lightbrite the baalas Nefesh could give me some peanut butter cups even though I’m a non-baalas nefesh. Just please leave out the Skittles or whatever they are called. I don’t know what they are, but it sounds like dog food to me.
“And a random guy in ShopRite dressed in Hasidic garb who claims he has a heter from an anonymous rabbi proves what? ”
Zero.
“There are legitimate heteirim to eat mamish non-kosher medicine or even foods on halachicly necessary circumstances.”
even when an equivilant 100% kosher according to all opinions option is available less than 50 feet away?
Chalav akum and stam r the same exact traif thing !!
If he said that eating Bishul Akum led to a metaphysically lower state that allowed for more intermarriage to exist, I’d be very troubled.
He sort of did say that, because he said that bishul akum causes intermarriage even when it doesn’t cause any more interaction with non Jews.
Chalav akum and stam r the same exact traif thing !!
Then why does the OK allow it?
Intermarriage causes more interaction with non-Jewish people.
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