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Now that the deliberately offensive title is out of the way, I’m genuinely curious how people feel about this.
My understanding is that retarded (like idiot and some others, but not doofus, doofus) used to be a clinical description. “Retard” is a verb meaning delay or hinder and some people’s intellectual development is delayed or hindered. “Retarded” is literally synonymous with “delayed”, a euphemism that some people use to replace it.
That said, it seems to be different than other common disabilities when used as a metaphor. People say deaf or blind all the time to refer to ignorance or whatever. Does retarded just sound worse because we’ve been conditioned to think it’s worse? Or is there something unique about intellectual disabilities that make it particularly wrong to use as a metaphor or insult?
It is offensive because people who are developmentally delayed (and their families) find it offensive. If deaf people found the term “deaf” offensive then it would too would be offensive.
I don’t know why people have trouble with this. similarly If native Americans find the term “redskin” offensive then it is offensive it doesnt matter how long the term has been used. You don’t have to care you are free to use offensive terms such as retarded and redskins, but we dont get to dictate what should and shouldn’t offend people. If they are offended then by definition it is offensive, whether or not the person using the term meant nay offense.
already posted about, iyan pba
It’s not offensive if the emphasis is on the last syllable ” re taaard”
I once had a boss who used this word alot he would say don’t do blank this way that sounds retarded i took great offense at this word i think it is an insult to those facing developmental issues yes it is offensive!
Why do you have to act boorish in public?
I don’t consider it offensive, but I understand that others do and won’t use it around someone who I know considers it offensive.
We consider intelligence to be an integral part of our identities.
Chofetz Chaim defines Avak Lashon Hara as a statement which can be understood in a way that it would be lashon hara.
I think this explains the Gemara which famously says that
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No matter what you say, somebody, somewhere is going to be insulted.
Just be considerate of people who have reasonable sensitivities based on their personal situation, and don’t worry about the people who take umbrage at the use of any term which could conceptually be viewed as offensive.
Ubiquitin, if I am offended by the word “ubiquitin”, will you stop using it?
I guess I’ve got to take the blame for this topic coming up again. I’m amazed that someone found it offensive in the context I used it. I used it to humorously describe some popa posts. Obviously popa wasn’t offended, so why should anyone else be? I would understand if I called poster x’s comment the “letter after q” word if poster x were offended, but this I don’t get. It’s ….
What a ubiquitin thread
DY, if a significant number of people here found ubiquitin offensive then yes I probably would stop (I’ll bet the mods would force it if people found it offensive). If just a Daas Yachid found it offensive I would say batlo daa’to
(I’m not sure what a significant number is 51%? 75%? 90?)
I doubt 51% think the “letter after q” word is offensive (unless you actually call someone that).
Veltz and when people find “developmentaly delayed” offensive it too will be offensive.
Sensibilities change all the time the n word was once acceptable as was oriental, tbings change sensibilities change. If you dont care and want to use a word that those involved find offensive by all means do so. If you want to he sensitive avoid using words they find offensive. I dont get the debate.
Are we discussing if they find the word offensive?
Are we really discussing if we should avoid a word that developmentaly delayed people find offensive?
And popa thanks for proving my point
just as an aside, (since the point of this thread seems to be to validate people’s desire to do what they want to do regardless of how others feel about it) I have complained about the use of that word several times. I do find it offensive. I also find that my finding it offensive is meaningless to both the posters and most mods. And I don’t care WHO you are calling that name, it is your use of it that offends. And when you are asked to respect other’s feelings and your answer is to make an extreme remark that is obviously not the issue, it says a lot about you. whomever “you” may be.
Not every mod approves of the word, but we do not delete everything which we disagree with.
“retarded” itself is merely a polite way replacing more insulting terms used previously
The Polite terms in contemporary English involving combing the words “Mental” or “Intellectual” with “Handicapped” or increasingly “Disabled.”
“Developmental.. ” refers to when the problem started, meaning it started from birth (as opposed to having resulted later in life (such as from disease or injury)
Bnei Torah prefer polite speech, but there is nothing wrong with an Am ha-Aretz using the word “retarded” since everyone knows such persons are intellectually challenged which due to poor training results in vulgarity, and will forgive them.
I only use commercially reasonable efforts to avoid offending people.
What do you call someone who decides to be offended by all sorts of normal things?
A retard.
Ubiquitin, I’m sorry, but that is simple developmentally disabled.
I hear people of a certain group using an epithet all the time, and since they’re the ones using it, it’s not considered offensive.
So why can’t popa and I use the “R” word?
I would think it was offensive because if you call someone or something retarded you are equating them or it with those who are mentally handicapped.
Notasheep, I agree. There are those trying to claim it’s offensive and derogatory even when not used to refer to someone. This, I don’t get.
I think it is all about context. If I say that preservatives retard spoilage, am I being offensive? Is Chuck Schumer offensive?
Ok, so here is my one coherent post about Retardidity.
So you have two sides of this coin. The normal people on this topic point out that the word is just descriptive, and that it is retarded that every 10 years the old word becomes “bad” and some new term becomes “good” and that we have to keep switching.
Meanwhile, the retards say, “if people are actually offended, why not just stop using the word? Does it mean so much to you to say one little word?”
And popa says: My objection is that I don’t think the word changes because people are actually offended. I think that there are certain retards in this world who get their kicks out being “more sensitive” and “more empathetic” than the rest of the world, and they do this by making up new terms to describe everything “nicely,” and then when their new term finally catches on and becomes the normal term, they have to go and make an even newer one so that they can still be better than us.
And I think that is retarded, developmentally delayed, deaf, dumb, mute, blind, idiotic, dolty, ubiquitin-ey, asinine, insane, bi-polar, depressed, post-partum, disassociation identity disorder-like, and generally just politically incorrect.
I don’t feel like kow-towing to these people. And I think they cause more people to be offended than not, since they keep convincing people to be offended by non-offensive words used without offensive intent. So I am sorry if anyone is offended, but I think it is these ubiquiton’s who are offending them.
Oh please popa. This whole discussion is about the use of the word “retarded” with offensive intent!
That is why DY’s comment is immaterial. In cases such as “retard growth “or flame retardent” there is no offensive intent so it is not offensive.
You are so trying to offend that you are insulting my moniker, and by extention me personally simply because you disagree. You certainly have every right to. But please don’t claim you don’t have offensive intent.
Let me clarify: I mean offensive intent to people who are actually mentally retarded.
I also don’t mean to insult you personally; I thought you find my usage of your moniker humorous. I will stop though, because I see I misjudged. I apologize.
Why when learning Kesubas can I say “Me’anes” but not the English equivalant. We a a society have arbitrary decided that in polite-yeshivish society we don’t use the English equivalent.
When I learned kesubos, we translated me’aneis as rape.
And my sixth grade rebbe, when we got up to the parsha of Amnon and Tamar, said “today we’re going to talk about rape.” And then talked about rape. And then we learned the parsha.
DY as to your question “So why can’t popa and I use the “R” word?”
you can but it is considered offensive.
Polite society has deemed the word not-refined/insensitive.
Why when learning Kesubas can I say “Me’anes” but not the English equivalant. We a a society have arbitrary decided that in polite-yeshivish society we don’t use the English equivalent.
But what’s your problem? The word or the offensive intent? I find the word tissue offensive, but I know people don’t use the word for the purpose of offending me, so I’m not offended.
Popa, if you’ve ever met someone who is so depressed that they can’t get out of bed, or so manic they won’t sleep for days, you wouldn’t throw the words bipolar around so lightly.
Or maybe you have met someone who is bipolar. In that case, I believe you are a highly insensitive individual.
But the word meant something else first. The retarded professionals keep stealing our words.
Thanks popa, I did find it humorous at first three times in your last post was a bit much.
Reb yid, its not about you. If polite society were to deem the word tissue offensive then it would be offensive
That is why DY’s comment is immaterial. In cases such as “retard growth “or flame retardent” there is no offensive intent so it is not offensive.
Nor is there any intent to offend in the way I have used it (and I assume the same with popa). So you’ve proven our point.
you can but it is considered offensive.
Offensive to whom?
Polite society has deemed the word not-refined/insensitive.
Polite society defined how, as people who don’t use the r word?
Why when learning Kesubas can I say “Me’anes” but not the English equivalant.
That is different. It is a tzniyus sensitivity which some have, but nobody thinks you’re insulting anyone.
Polite society consists of exactly ten and a half people. I don’t need to listen to them.
I left the YWN Coffee Room, in part, because a poster continually used the term, and it was seemingly condoned by the Mods.
I made my thoughts & feelings known, but they were disregarded.
*Syag Lchochma~ +1
If you study the definitions, “”Me’anes” is not a perfect translation of the English word “rape”. For example, one can consent and still be raped (e.g. a minor if the other party is an adult). When discussing “legalese” it is best to stick to the original langauge. The are other distinctions in the definitions. It isn’t a one to one correlation.
The rebbe who thinks they are translations probably hasn’t studied enough law and linguistics, and should stick to the original Hebrew term without using an English term he may not fully undertand.
Akuperma,
I don’t think anyone is using it in the “legal” sense. I think we’re just using it in the English language sense. The rebbe, myself, and the rest of the world perfectly understand the “English term” without torturing its meaning with whatever the retarded lawyers have thought up.
Also, for the record, pitui ketanah ones hu.
Also, let me note that the title to this thread is excellent and also retarded.
I also will note that I have to stop myself from saying “retarded” at work, because people will think I’m retarded.
Now that we’re talking about imperfect tranlations, I’ll point out that while useful, one should bear in mind that they are imperfect. If the English word were to be taken literally, mistakes would ensue. I assume popa’s rebbe and the talmidim understood this, but I have seen this occur.
For example, if using the term “minor”, one needs to understand that the halachic term “ketanah” or “katan” is not precisely defined as “minor”, because the parameters are different.
The people at popa’s work must be members of polite society.
Not all offensive intent is created equal.
The use of a term such as retarded to refer offensively to another person (usually to someone with whom I disagree, but can not effectively explain why they are wrong) actually should not be offensive to the clinically retarded any more than the use of the term weakling is offensive to the clinically weak.
The intended offense is not to the “real” retarded – it is to the person whose arguments I find so preposterous that I would label them (him?) so irrational as to be “retarded”.
The fact that some people who have clinically retarded relatives can be hypersensitive to the use of the term nevertheless does not confer “offensive word” status on the term. (Notice “some people” – I have close family members who are clinically retarded, and have no problem with the way the word is used).
I think we all agree that the word cancer ( as in, “talking in shul has spread like a cancer”) is not offensive. At the same time, I think we all appreciate the value in choosing a different word when cancer patients are nearby.
The only question is, to what degree must we be wary of the possibility that an affected individual may be hurt (not offended!) by its usage in a particular setting? (in the CR, this is very likely…)
This is very different from, for example, the N word, which has evolved into an offensive term with a very negative connotation.
Just ask Joe Biden about such words.
As an aside, I do think that rape is the correct translation of me’anes. As PBA pointed out, although the definition of “minor” is different in Halacha from US law, the definition of “consent” is about the same. We find many times (as in Parashas Ki Savo) where explicit terminology in the Torah is masked as an expression of the refined mode of speech which we are expected to employ. I do not think there is anything “wrong” with using the word rape, but that it is uncouth in mainstream “yeshivish” culture (there you go using offensive words again…).
As a Rebbe in an upper elementary classroom, I would never use the word rape. I want to model what I consider to be refined behavior. I do not shy away from teaching any topic, but it is important to teach at all times with the goal of training students to be B’nei Torah.
Akuperma lots of translation s are imperfect.
And of course in hebrew they dont have these “sensitivities” they simply use the hebrew word for rape. We have decided rape is improper .there is no inherent logic, in some circles it is not yhat watway as in popas elementary school.
Ask a developmentaly delayed person or their family if they
Mind the word retarted. They are the ones being offended not me
I really really hate this thread.
Why, Goq?
For example, if using the term “minor”, one needs to understand that the halachic term “ketanah” or “katan” is not precisely defined as “minor”, because the parameters are different.
I don’t agree with that either, even though “minor” is a legal word and has no meaning outside a legal context.
When you use the term “minor”, it is associated with its particular context. The same as any other word.
If I tell you that I was in Canada last week, and tried to buy beer and had to prove to the guy that I wasn’t a minor, would you jump all over me and say “but you’re 20 years old, so you really are a minor!”? No, because in Canada they sell beer to 20 year olds and they aren’t minors.
If I tell you that I was in Florida last week and I murdered someone by turning on a counterfeiting machine which I didn’t realize was hooked up to an ebola vial and set it loose; would you say “but there is no felony murder rule in <insert your state>!” No, because in Florida murder has different rules. So if I translate retzicha as murder, that works because it means “murder,” and has the rules of the context it is used in.
Ketana means “minor” in the legal sense. And every legal system decides what age they want to treat as a minor. It doesn’t mean the legal system that you happen to want to “shtuch” me with.
But rape is different, because it has a common meaning outside of the legal system. When people say the word “rape” they aren’t referring to any legal context. Rape is similar to words like “rob” and “steal” which have a common meaning outside of any specialized legal meaning.
DY you asked:
“Offensive to whom?”
To developmentally delayed people. Just to be clear, they are the ones being offended (and their families, though as catch yourself points out not all families)
“Polite society defined how, as people who don’t use the r word?”
Defined as people who want to be sensitive to other’s (especially those with developmental delays) feelings.
Your usage of the term “polite society” is highly offensive. The English upper classes made up that term to denigrate the poor people as uncouth.
I honestly don’t think they’re reading the CR. Their families might be, but if they’re normal (i.e. not hypersensitive), they shouldn’t be offended, as catch yourself said.
I’m curious to know how many people who said they were offended have such family members, and how many just decided that people should be offended, and that this gives them the right to offend and insult those who disagree with them.
Also, ubiquitin, are you retracting your accusation that anyone here had “intent” to offend? Because now, it seems, you’re saying something different.
Popa, minor detail.
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