If this is what we've been waiting 2000 years for…

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  • #608932
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Was it worth it?

    Would you have waited?

    #1073634
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I would have become Christian.

    #1073635
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    P.S. This is in honor of Sam for remembering my amazing trolling, and in honor or DY for finding it.

    #1073636
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Who waited 2000 years? I was actually born less than a hundred years ago.

    #1073637
    interjection
    Participant

    This is probably kefira

    #1073638
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I would have become Christian.

    Strangely enough, you (at least on this site) are eccentric enough that it wouldn’t shock me if either:

    1: You already are

    2: You really mean that

    3: You just want to see what reactions you will get

    4: You are really bored today

    So which one is it? 😉

    #1073639
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Strangely enough, you (at least on this site) are eccentric enough that it wouldn’t shock me if either:

    1: You already are

    lol. That is too funny to think about. Imagine if a poster like me were really Christian. lol

    2: You really mean that

    Of course I do. If this is the yemos hamashiach we’ve been waiting for, it was totally not worth waiting.

    3: You just want to see what reactions you will get

    I do want to see that. Also how other people answer the question.

    4: You are really bored today

    I am. Can’t you see how much I’ve been posting.

    #1073640
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    That is too funny to think about. Imagine if a poster like me were really Christian.

    Exactly! It fits with the “personality”

    I do want to see that. Also how other people answer the question.

    Did I disappoint you?

    #1073641
    yytz
    Participant

    This is not the geulah. For sure. But it’s not exactly a normal golus situation either. About 95% of the Jews in the world live either in Israel or North America, where, for the first time for 2000 years, the vast majority of Jews can practice our religion freely and without more than trivial suffering.

    A universal draft, a cut in funding to charedi institutions, a few rockets from Gaza, some anti-Semitism and crime in America, the atheistic or heterodox ideologies keeping most Jews from making teshuvah, even Iranian nuclear ambitions — these may be problematic but are nothing compared to the suffering Yidden have endured for the last two millenia.

    There has been never another time when a Jewish family could manage to have 10 or more kids, have them all survive, and have all or nearly of them stay on the derech and raise their own families without the scourge of war or disease or pogroms or expulsions. Even if the public image of the religious is often low in Israel, the situation there is objectively better: the fact is that even the vast majority of Jews in Israel marry other Jews and have Jewish children — which unfortunately is not the case in the US.

    I find it interesting that Israel was founded in 1948, the same year (in the Jewish calendar) as Avraham Avinu’s birthday. Of course, Hashem first promised the land to Avraham. So the existence of the Medina is just a beginning, as Avraham’s birth was, and there are still all kinds of problems, but Jewish life for nearly all Jews today is qualitatively more free and secure than at any other time since the golus began.

    #1073642
    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    We’ve been waiting 2,000 years to see:

    1) Hashem recognized as the creator and king of the world

    2) The galus to end and all the yidden to be back in Israel

    3) The bais hamikdash to be rebuilt

    4) Our enemy the yetzer harah to be killed

    5) The sanhedrin to be reestablished

    6) I can go on but this is taking too long

    As far as I can tell none of these have happened yet. I don’t know about you but I’m still waiting. No Yom Haatzmaut for me.

    #1073643
    writersoul
    Participant

    Oy, popa. ‘Sgotta be annoying.

    I know how you feel- I’m home sick today, which is why I’ve been lurking here nonstop and refreshing the page every five minutes the whole stupid day.

    I’m starting a new thread- details to come.

    PS: What have we waited 2000 years for in particular?

    #1073644
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Don’t forget forcing people to listen to kol isha, and turning the kosel into a beis avodah zara.

    #1073645
    writersoul
    Participant

    Ohhh…. gotcha.

    Well, I for one don’t hold with Israel being “what we’ve waited for for 2000 years”- I’ve been waiting for Moshiach, personally.

    However, I do believe that the State of Israel has brought some great things to us, such as increased ability to learn Torah (something taken for granted until it was threatened recently), access to the kosel and other mekomos kedoshim, and a place for Jews, ALL Jews, to live if they so choose. I don’t believe that these are yemos hamoshiach, but I don’t believe that they’re sinful or anything either.

    That is why I’m going to be a semi-passive observer to Yom Haatzmaut- I might wear blue and white if I remember, and I will have nothing negative to say whatsoever to my friends who do observe it more than I do. I wear an American flag tshirt on July 4th, also. Israel is a country that is close to my heart because of all of its Jews and its uniquely Jewish character (even if it’s not as perfect as you’d all like it to be). But I won’t celebrate it as more than a regular anniversary day.

    #1073646
    yytz
    Participant

    Gamanit: We won’t need Yom Haatzmaut after all that happens. We can just celebrate on Tisha B’Av. Or all the time. Now, we get a minor holiday to celebrate what we do have. Isn’t it nice we can visit Israel or even move there without immediate threats to our safety (it’s probably actually safer there, due to the high murder rate here)?

    Popa: Not good, but that’s nickles and dimes, in a broad historical perspective. The state is a big clumsy creature and bad decisions will sometimes be made. Blowing up the Al Aska Mosque and banning the non-Orthodox from the kotel isn’t exactly feasible at this juncture. Like I said this isn’t the geulah. But no one says it is — just perhaps the very early stages.

    #1073647
    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    yytz- we were able to do that under the Ottoman empire as well. What day did we celebrate for that then? Or under the British? It was only after the independence that we had to be afraid of terror attacks. Should I celebrate that now we get rocket fire?

    #1073648
    yytz
    Participant

    There were pogroms, anti-Semitic riots, etc. in Eretz Yisrael before the state was created. The last times Jews created an independent state (the Hasmoneans) we sure got a holiday out of that.

    #1073649
    writersoul
    Participant

    Gamanit: Life in eretz Yisrael in Ottoman and Turkish times was not always a bed of roses. Access to many mekomos kedoshim was either forbidden or extremely dangerous. The kosel was a tiny area, filled with garbage and up against a house, that was very difficult to access. In the Ottoman times, at the very least, there was certainly a draft (while we all know of people who changed their names at Ellis Island, we don’t hear about those who changed their names to avoid the Ottoman draft) to an army which was a lot more of a sonei Yisrael than the Israeli army, believe it or not (and the fact I have to point that out is a bit sad). The Chevron massacre and massacres in Yerushalayim, Tzfas, and elsewhere all took place in the times of the Ottomans and the British.

    We won’t have perfection until Moshiach, so since we know that, why blame Israel so much? At least Israel gave us some benefits like I mentioned above, and is a country of Jews. Kol Yisrael areivim zeh lazeh- why shouldn’t I celebrate with 6 million of my fellow Jews that they have such a uniquely Jewish place to be? (And yes, it is uniquely Jewish, even if it’s not as Jewish as many would like it to be.)

    #1073650
    truthsharer
    Member

    gamanit,

    Please learn some history.

    Thanks.

    #1073651
    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    The frequency of attacks is greater now. The damage is less, but that’s due to rachmei shamayim, not easier circumstances. The second point is simply incorrect. The chasmonaim still paid taxes to the greeks.

    #1073652
    drovi
    Member

    writersoul: We had access to the Kosel before the State. It was actually the creation of the State that caused us to lose access for 19 years. We learnt a lot of Torah (and had even bigger Talmidei Chachomim) before the State. Before the zionists poushed for a State, there were no restrictions on moving to EY, and frum yidden lived there for hundreds of years before.

    #1073653

    What is ‘this’? why would someone think now is ‘yemos haMashiach?’

    #1073654
    yichusdik
    Participant

    2000 years? sounds like the waiting time for my tune up at the mechanic the other day.

    Yeah, though, I can see where you are coming from. Just imagine the thoughts of Abba Bar Poppa 1000 years ago, somewhere in the Rhineland, weeping over the destruction of his community by an angry mob as he trudged out of the town that just expelled him, stole his property and abused his family. I can just imagine him saying “If this is what I’ve been waiting 1000 years for…”. I wonder indeed how he would perceive a time and place, with all its many, many faults, where more Jews than ever in history live freely and can learn Torah and can defend themselves with HKBH’s help. I’m sure he’d find the reduction in subsidies, media bias and draft notices distressing. I guess its all a matter of perspective.

    #1073655
    squeak
    Participant

    “If I get to olam habah and see its no better than this, I’ll complain: I already had this at Achashverosh’ palace.”

    This is what popa meant by “I would become a christian”.

    #1073656
    squeak
    Participant

    With that said I pretty much agree with popa 100%.

    #1073657
    writersoul
    Participant

    drovi: Did you read what I wrote? There was access, but not anything like we’ve got now.

    #1073658

    Writersoul is right- access to the kosel pre-’48 was severely limited and absolutely nothing like today. The Arabs frequently rioted, Jews were not allowed to put chairs or a mechitzah in the kosel area, and on Yom Kippur 1930 many Jews were arrested by the british for putting up a mechitzah! Today, we have complete control over the kosel and many other kevarim and important places like Ir David. Be grateful for these gifts, or you may lose them.

    #1073659
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Squeak: yes, I did think of that while writing it.

    #1073660

    I don’t understand how Popa can disparage modern Israel and zionism so freely and easily. JEwish sovereignty, safety from anti-semitic attacks, and ability to live in peace from violently anti-semitic governments is a big deal. Yeshivas have more students than they ever did, and more people are learning torah today than at any point in history. Many kiruv organizations use trips to Israel to help prospective baalei teshuvah reconnect to their roots.

    We have Yerushalayim in our control for the first time in 2,000 years (most of it). We have control over the kotel. We can walk the streets of Israel safely knowing we won’t suddenly be excommunicated or attacked by goyim. That’s a big deal, and saying it’s disappointing just shows you’re either very ungrateful or ignorant of Jewish history.

    The medina is the “package” of the gift of eretz yisrael. No british govt. can limit immigration, arrest Jews for no reason, or pander to the Arabs. Be grateful.

    #1073661
    yytz
    Participant

    I’m sure I’m not the first person to make this observation, but it’s ironic that people of a more right-wing hashkafa both 1) tend to insist on an all-encompassing Hashgacha Pratis (everything is bashert, there is no such thing as a coincidence, etc.), and 2) believe that there is no religious significance whatsoever to the foundation or existence of the State of Israel. These beliefs conflict, no? (I’m not criticizing the strong version of hashgacha pratis — I believe in this myself.)

    The Satmar Rebbe after the 1967 war even claimed that it was Satan, not God, who allowed the Israelis to recapture Yerushalayim. Other gedolim, such as R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky, disagreed with him and ascribed the event to God, even though they were not sympathetic to the Medina in general.

    If God is so great that He’s totally beyond human comprehension, then why couldn’t he accomplish some of his goals through people with secular ideologies? After all, settling in Eretz Yisroel has been described as equivalent to all the other mitzvos. (Sifrei Devarim 80).

    #1073662
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    rationalfrummie: I don’t deny any of those things, and I am grateful to G-d for them. However, they are not messianic. That is my point.

    #1073663
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yytz:

    I don’t see the contradiction. I believe in divine providence but don’t see any religious significance to the Holocaust.

    #1073664
    squeak
    Participant

    The Satmar Rebbe after the 1967 war even claimed that it was Satan, not God, who allowed the Israelis to recapture Yerushalayim

    How do you know he said this?

    #1073665

    Yes, claiming that all the events surrounding Yom Ha’atzmaut are part of the ischalta d’geulah is troubling. My point though was that your view that the state of Israel is a ‘letdown’, per say, is slightly ungrateful for the reasons I mentioned.

    #1073666
    mdd
    Member

    The Medinah(despite the kavonos of the majority of its founders) is a nessecary step in the coming of the Moshiach process.

    #1073667
    truthsharer
    Member

    99.99999999% of gedolim/rabbanim/etc… all hold the Satmar Rebbe was 100% wrong. It is unfortunately becoming cool in some circles to actually state that the SR’s shittah is actually the majority opinion, when clearly it is not so.

    #1073668
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The Medinah(despite the kavonos of the majority of its founders) is a nessecary step in the coming of the Moshiach process.

    Amazing how much the tzionim know about G-d’s plans.

    #1073669
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Rationalist: Of course it is a letdown. I’ll tell you what it’s like. (I don’t know whose moshol this is.)

    So the queen sinned and the King kicked her out of the house. But she was crying to come back. So finally he said: Ok, you can come back and live her. But I’m leaving.

    G-d let us come back, but without Him. Yes, I’m let down. I want a country where Hashem will be shoreh shechina on us. I want a country that will be run according to the Torah. I want a country that will be devoted to making a kiddush hashem.

    And that’s not to say that Israel never makes a kiddush Hashem–they do. But they mix it in with all their chillul hashem.

    #1073670
    Sam2
    Participant

    Squeak: It’s in the Ma’amar Shalosh Shevuos.

    #1073671
    mdd
    Member

    PBA, it is Talmidei Chachomim who know — from ma’amorei Chazal and later Gedolim. Amazing how much you and others were indoctrinated by the Satmar and their fans!

    #1073672
    son
    Member

    “and turning the kosel into a beis avodah zara.”

    I must have missed this one?

    #1073673
    squeak
    Participant

    I see, so he was misquoted. Maaseh Satan does not mean what yytz thinks, ascribing power to satan comes from christian theology. Satan does the job given to him by Hashem only. I was just reacting to that misunderstanding.

    #1073674

    The mashal is slightly inaccurate, it misses the part where the queen is exiled and tormented by others, and that she is only really safe in her own palace- even if the king is not there yet. She has to bring him back. We can bring Hashem into the picture, were just not trying hard enough.

    #1073675
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    “and turning the kosel into a beis avodah zara.”

    I must have missed this one?

    It was in the news yesterday. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/Headlines+&+Breaking+Stories/163447/Netanyahu+Considers+Allowing+%27Mixed+Minyan%27+Area+At+Kosel.html

    #1073676
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    PBA, it is Talmidei Chachomim who know — from ma’amorei Chazal and later Gedolim.

    Really? Tell me more. Tell me all about the maamorei chazal that say there must be a frei country before there can be mashiach. And all about the later gedolim (and let’s try to keep those pre-1948).

    Amazing how much you and others were indoctrinated by the Satmar and their fans!

    Wow. Way to change the tone of the conversation. I’m not biting.

    #1073677
    oomis
    Participant

    Yes, it was, because we have reached such a depth of depravity in this world, that Hashem SURELY has to bring us the Geulah, because the world cannot stand like this for much longer. And because of the sickness of this world, perhaps b’Chasdei Hashem we will be the ones who are zochim to live to see Yemos haMoshiach, and not just his ikvisah.

    #1073678
    mdd
    Member

    PBA, I do not have the time now to bring all the sources. Btw, I hope you know what Chazal said at the end of Sotah about the Ikvesa de”Meshicha. And about the frei country, the Moshiach himself comes from ma’ase Yehudah ve”Tamar, Lot and his daughters, Dovid and Bat Shevah and so forth.

    #1073679
    sw33t
    Member

    i’m a little late but..

    “I would have become christian”

    popa_bar_abba

    Incorrigible; semi-retarded; eccentric; perhaps a man; possibly christian; somewhere between mean and average; sometimes only a bit over the top; arbitrarily cynical.

    🙂

    #1073680
    phrum
    Member

    Golus. Geulah. B”H for some this is mamash Olam HaBah, for some Olam HaZeh, and R”V for some Gehinom.

    #1073681
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And about the frei country, the Moshiach himself comes from ma’ase Yehudah ve”Tamar, Lot and his daughters, Dovid and Bat Shevah and so forth.

    Yeah, and nobody holds that any of those were a mitzva. Part of G-d’s plan–yes. Just the same as the Holocaust and the ????? ?????.

    So mazel tov, you think your state is the same as the ????? ?????.

    I don’t know if it is necessary or not; I don’t know enough about what G-d is intending. Perhaps mashiach will come by a frum majority electing him as machiach. But even that would not lend any religious significance to the state, and it would only be as necessary as the Holocaust was.

    #1073682
    yytz
    Participant

    Squeak, I got that from a couple posts by R’ Eidensohn on his Daas Torah blog. It includes long direct quotes from the Satmar Rebbe.

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