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Korach’s rebellion against Moses is the prime example of the importance of respecting authority and knowing your place.
Counter examples have been known to exist. Particularly in the goyishe world; some people like power. And these are the people who obtain power because it is what guides every judgment they make. What decision will maximize my (risk adjusted) power expectation? Many leaders answer this before every decision; because this is the thought process for getting to the powerful position in the first place.
Often when an entity obtains power they build defenses against any potential challenger. “I jumped into the volcano when i was a young man to prove my worthiness for leadership: It is an accepted law; anyone who would become leader must jump into the volcano too.”
While it is perceptibly advantageous to minimize social uncertainty by having consistent leadership; and minimize challenges to leadership because they invariably divide a community and leave it vulnerable to third party attacks. The problem of entrenchment still exists.
An incumbent can measure the cost of social uncertainty caused by a change in leadership, e.g. the price premium of acquiring enough outstanding shares to organize a hostile takeover, and weigh this cost against the level of leer jet country club, or nubile sex, or sadistic whatever they might enjoy.
In this line of thinking; it would seem socially advantageous to minimize the cost of changing leadership. Note that the cost of changing leadership are explicitly different from the cost of challenging leadership. The cost of changing leadership is quite low if the cost of challenging leadership is ‘jumping into a volcano’ because the expectation of any change is very low.
On the other hand; it seems there must be some minimum acceptable uncertainty; orthodox Jews I suspect would let this be a validated sign from heaven. The Goyishe might take a vote periodically.
There was a overhrow of power in the Gemorah of Rabban Gamliel
I think other Rabbanin thought Rabban Gamliel he was too abusive of Rabbi Yehoshua and perhaps too abusive of power in general.
Ok, I seem to have forgotten. I think the School of Hillel based on a system of qualified votes. You get admitted to the court based on a recommendation from your teacher (a member of the court) and then your vote counts. The community respects the decisions of the court. Allowing anyone to vote would be too far left; and not voting would be too far right?
Zdad
The Rabbi you speak of has less power than you think.
I think the following maaseh is relevent:
“The Orthodox professor Dr. Avraham S. Avraham mentions in his sefer Nishmas Avrohom the opinion of R. Sherira Gaon and Rabbi Avrohom, the son of Rambam, that the remedies that are mentioned in the gemara applied only in Talmudic times, and that nowadays, people should follow the medical advice of their present physicians.
R. Shlomo Zalman Auerbach wrote a letter with critical notes to Professor Avraham in which he stated that the aforementioned opinions are a minority view, but that according to halacha, if current medical wisdom runs counter to Talmudic remedies, one should use Talmudic medicines.
When Rabbi Yosef Yitzhak Lerner was in the process of publishing his work Shemiras Haguf Vehanefesh, he asked the Rosh Yeshiva for the sources on which he had based his opinion…. The Rosh Yeshiva replied that at the moment he was not able to recall the source…
(He later wrote a letter to R. Lerner citing the laws of the Shulchan Aruch that use Tamudic medicine as basis to permitting desecration of Shabbos for certain, presumably life-threatening disease)
R. Lerner wanted to publish this letter but someone advised him against it…”it is disrespectful to publicize a letter in which the Rosh Yeshiva admits that the does not recall something”…
As it turned out within only a few months R. Lerner received a letter from a Talmudic scholar indicating that the Rivash (447) explicitly disagrees with Rab Sherira Gaon and R. Avroham ben Harambam. A short time later another scholar remarked that Rashbo in Mishmeres Habayis 4:1 also disagrees with the two Rishonim.”
Reb Shlomo Zalman by Y. M. Stern, tr. A.Y Finkel, CIS Pulishers, 1996
That happened because R’ SZA was the “Last of the Gedolim.” I doubt all the stories you hear about him could be said about a tenth of the rabbanim running around today.
truthsharer
There were a few more after him he wasnt the last and there are still a few left in Eretz Yisrael, not sure there are any more in America though.
chalilavchas -“B”H most Rabbanim have never been caught twisting the truth. Only those who have been caught twisting the truth, need to be retired, perhaps.”
I don’t think anyone has done it B’maizid. And it’s more than just a few like you say. But there are two categories 1. Leaders 2. Followers. #1 category would be Shoggeg Korov L’maizid. #2 would be Shoggeg. #1 should be retired.
There are a lot of way more important issues than Tzinus and Internet that either aren’t being dealt with or aren’t dealt with properly and this Must stop ASAP!
The problem with this problem is that it is bigger than just this case. Or this issue.
The problem is modernity – specifically critical thinking, as taught, to some degree or another, to almost everyone, even unconsciously by parents wanting to teach their child to encounter and discover the world around him or her. One definition I found (criticalthinking (dot)org) is the following:
“Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness.
It entails the examination of those structures or elements of thought implicit in all reasoning: purpose, problem, or question-at-issue; assumptions; concepts; empirical grounding; reasoning leading to conclusions; implications and consequences; objections from alternative viewpoints; and frame of reference.”
As I see it, this is the way our brains are hard wired to work most effectively, and it is the default mechanism by which even the most pious of us most effectively deduce, infer, or interpret what we encounter.
It is the way, for the most part, which Rambam used to reason.
It is logical and rational, and it works. And if HKBH didn’t want us to use our brains effectively, he wouldn’t have created us this way.
The problem is that critical thinking, while it won’t necessarily lead you to question the big issues (HKBH, Torah Misinai, etc), it will undisputably lead you to recognize that people, no matter how great, are still human, and by virtue of looking at one’s own human capacities, one has to reasonably conclude that even the greatest human can err. For goodness sake, even Moshe Rabeinu did, and he was punished by HKBH for it. Lo kol shekein others?
Error in itself is not a disqualification for leadership, from the POV of anyone using critical thinking. What may be, though, is bdavka non recognition of the error, not being mekabel a better derech for the future, or not applying standards equally across the board.
It’s not for any of us to set standards for our manhigim. It is for them to set and meet standards for themselves that will not fail the test of critical thinking.
yichusdik – You first say –
“The problem with this problem is that it is bigger than just this case. Or this issue.”
And then you say:
“Error in itself is not a disqualification for leadership, from the POV of anyone using critical thinking. What may be, though, is bdavka non recognition of the error, not being mekabel a better derech for the future, or not applying standards equally across the board.
It’s not for any of us to set standards for our manhigim. It is for them to set and meet standards for themselves that will not fail the test of critical thinking.”
This to me is wrong! You recognize that a problem exists and it’s Not a one time deal, but then you say it’s just an error and it’s Not our place to correct it -then whose place is it? While ideally they should correct themselves -they haven’t -so who should stand up if not the regular people?
The purpose in this world is – if you see bad things happening to try to stop it. B’mokom Shein Ish Yishtadel Leeyos Ish.
One of the reasons that the Torah punishes people is Lman Yilmidu Veerohu -do you think if enough people got together and protested about the leaders, like I said previously that there are leaders and followers amongst the Rabbonim, that nothing would be done?
Even if the Klal didn’t get rid of these leaders, but at least there would be Lman Yilmidu Veerohu.
Do you think perhaps some of these Rabbonim when they hear something they don’t like in the future because they are Nogieah to the other side that perhaps they would hesitate to go around saying that this guy is crazy, like they did to me? I think they would think twice. The fact that they haven’t corrected these major issues is because most people have Not taken them to task.
So the few like me that get up are labeled crazy.
Yes. But hopefully those who are critical thinkers and have, deservedly so, lost respect for people in high places who have been less than honest, wont be criticized for non-acceptance of unacceptable public behavior.
The past week or two have proven something that Chazal have said previously. Aseh Licha Rav doesn’t mean that the “Olam”, “Charaidim”, “The Moetzes” or anyone else should make your Rav. YOU should make your Rav and follow him. Obviously not everyone who has any of these terms (or is even called a “Gadol” by some or many) is fit to be followed.
Health, I hear, and I stand corrected. I put it that way because I feel that there are few who are prepared to hear the facts AND take the manhigim to task. And how would one do so, in an environment where the least criticism (even as gentle as mine above) is taken as kfira and bizui gedolim?
If I thought there was a possibility of the chareidi veldt standing up as you suggest and saying that wholesale recognition of error and change must be made right now by those in positions of leadership, I’d advocate for it. Sadly, I don’t think it is possible to do so all at once. I do believe that both the leaders and the led can learn from incremental suggestions and sustained watchfulness. I also hope that a younger generation of manhigim generates a modified worldview, and that it happens before too many more honest, good, and God fearing yidden throw up their hands in dismay and walk away from the unexplained, unapologetic, and incoherent leadership of the kind displayed in the situation in Lakewood.
Health, for myself, as you have probably surmised from many of my positions in the CR, I go to poskim or Gedolim if I have a shaila, but I do not subscribe to the notion that my every move and thought must be done only with their Ishur. But there are many who do exactly that, and it is they who empower the manhigus that let us down in this case. It is them who must expect change, and advocate for it, even if they are unlikely to rise up and demand it publicly. It is them who the manhigim will respond to, if anyone, not to me.
chalilavchas
Something tells me you shouldn’t send your email using your real name.
I think that making a poor judgment might possibly be the result of weakness, recognizing that error and the weakness that caused it to occur, is a sign of renewed strength.
chalilavchas – I don’t think this should be sent to him/them because there are others that should be dealt with first.
chalilavchas -“I have no idea who youre referring to, but why cant they be dealt with at the same time? Dealing with one wouldnt weaken dealing with the other.”
Because they aren’t dealing with the others. They are making him into the scapegoat. There are different problems in the Klal, besides molestation, that aren’t being dealt with either. I can’t post them here. The ones who are leaders in these types of decisions, not just the followers, should be taken to task, which is Not happenning. I believe this Rov is from the followers.
As opposed to your info, just in this recent case, there were many Rabbonim and Askonim involved and I’m pretty sure this Rov that you’re talking about was just following the crowd.
Maybe I am mistaken here, wasnt this rabbi the main signer of the Kol Kore.
Its one thing to privatly support the perp, its quite another to support the perp against the victim publically
chalilavchas -“Surrrre. I can picture many Rabbonim standing around the above described Rabbi and forcing/threatening him to compose, sign and oversee distribution of the letter which incriminates the family of the victim. And the Rabbi complied.”
That’s not what I meant, but I actually have heard things like that before.
What I meant was – a few decided that the perp must not be guilty and the problem lies with the victim and his family. These few claimed they “know” this to be the case and other Rabbis followed their lead. While I don’t know this to be for sure in this case -I’m assuming it to be because of my knowledge of their individual personalities.
Health – that is not the case with this Posek, who came to the same conclusion years earlier about a relative of this accused who also ultimately admitted to his crimes.
It seems that the underlying issue is that this manhig found it inconceivable that someone in our machne could possibly do such heinous things. Therefore everything that followed against him – even his own admission, must be a lie. And Nothing the outside world touches, even its officers charged to protect children, could ever be acceptable or appropriate in any way at any time, so dealing with the authorities is also a terrible transgression, and so now the “lying” parents of the victim are compounding their transgression by being mosrim.
If one actually travels down the path of this convoluted, twisted logic, it makes sense to write the letter that was written, and take the position against the victim and for the perpetrator.
But to quote half of a phrase from the malachei hashores, “Zo Torah?” Is it really?
I hate to say it, but the mental gymnastics I described above are not uncommon, both among balabatim and manhigim. IS it a sustainable approach to problem solving?
yichusdik -“Health – that is not the case with this Posek, who came to the same conclusion years earlier about a relative of this accused who also ultimately admitted to his crimes.”
Unfortunately, in the other case, lots of people, Rabbis and regular people, still believe that guy is innocent.
Look, are you saying this Rov is Nogieah to this family or just is against the idea of reporting molesters in general?
But either way -you must be absolutely sure this was his own idea in this case before you try to bury him. If he was just following the crowd -he doesn’t deserve to be buried as much as the instigators.
chalilavchas -“Please correct me if Im wrong, but afaik the signed horrible accusation against the family involved one Rabbi.”
I honestly don’t remember who signed what. Read my latest post to Yichusdik. Even if this Rov was from the leaders/instigators in this case, in which case he deserves castigation, he for sure wasn’t the only one. He has no power here in Lakewood and it was some Lakewood Rabbonim/Askonim that went after the victim and his family. Only these people have/had the power to make the father lose his job and have their kids removed from school. Like I said don’t make this guy the scapegoat and let the others get away with this.
Health, he is not a scapegoat, but a prominent part of the problem. And I am not trying to bury him, as if an anonymous poster on the CR could. I haven’t even mentioned his name. As I said in a previous post, The best outcome would be for him to say – I was wrong, I am sorry to the victim and his family, and I will not approach cases like this in the same way ever again, as molestation is a real, all too prevalent, and destructive force in our society – not for him to be “buried”.
One of the reasons I am so shaken by his stance in these cases is the fact that he suggested a few years ago serious and costly gedorim to a prominent youth group as to avoiding even the proximity of same gender teens sharing a room potentially coming in physical contact. So if he is aware of the practicalities of such potential issues (And he is. More than 200 people heard him say this), his only rationale must be ideological.
Additionally, There were 9 local Lakewood rabbis who signed a a statement about it who are also part of the problem, and there is one godol / manhig from Israel (of a very high stature in the Yeshivish world) who we all know of who got involved against the family of the victim. There is no accountability among these Lakewood leaders. There is no one in Lakewood who will stand up to them, because they are all afraid of being shunned, harassed, and driven out of the community.
yichusdik -“Health, he is not a scapegoat, but a prominent part of the problem.”
Like I posted previously, if he is part of the problem, then he must be dealt with.
“Additionally, There were 9 local Lakewood rabbis who signed a a statement about it who are also part of the problem, and there is one godol / manhig from Israel (of a very high stature in the Yeshivish world) who we all know of who got involved against the family of the victim. There is no accountability among these Lakewood leaders. There is no one in Lakewood who will stand up to them, because they are all afraid of being shunned, harassed, and driven out of the community.”
There is accountability, but maybe not in this world. It’s time for them to have accountability in this world too. I’m not afraid to stand up because they have done all that you mentioned -to me already, indirectly. I’m sure the real big Godol is just fooled by them. I’m willing to reveal to him the truth but it will take a few of us to stand up for the truth. Mee La’shem Aily?
Considering how you and I have fought tooth and nail over issues relating to Israel and Zionism, I have to say I admire your stance and for my part, lets just say I am in a position to perhaps bring up the issue with people and orgs who interact with the posek.
i am not sure what is better i personally believe that one can take something he himself said as it is is his personal honor but an institution like beis din should not because this is not personal honor it is rather the kovod of torah
there is a case in Gittin were Rav(or rebbi im not so sure) and his B”D made the wrong valuation of a terrain, the mistake was more than 1/6 of the price, rav (rebbi still not sure) paskened that the object had to be taken back when asked if he didn’t hold like RSHBA”G that “ma koach B”D iaphe” what would people say about the power of beis din he said beis din should not take it back so that people remain honoring its rulings. notice how he took back what he previously said of taking back (gittin fourth perek i believe lamed daled amud beis but not so sure)
nem621 -“i am not sure what is better i personally believe that one can take something he himself said as it is is his personal honor but an institution like beis din should not because this is not personal honor it is rather the kovod of torah”
I see people from the Hamon Am are starting to wake up like you Sir. Never saw your SN before. I’m sure these type of things, or similar, you have never been exposed to before, not like me. To set you straight we’re Not talking about some money -we’re talking about peoples’ lives. I’m not going to go on a tirade right now, but who gave these Bottey Dinim of 3 or Rosh Hayeshivos or Gedolim any Torah right in the first place even to give an opinion (No B’D of 23)? But let’s say they can get involved because there is noone else, why would you think that it’s excusable to do what they did? I’m not even sure if the Bais Din of 23, once upon a time, would not even get punished for this and you’re excusing this behavior – why – because it’s PC, or for a different reason?
What is the difference how it is seen? The bottom line is how can we accept people as gedolim if they will not admit their mistake? What is going on here!?
sl1, very simple, we don’t accept them as gedolim.
I’ve been saying this for years, even before Slifkingate, when gedolim act in a way that you wouldn’t act (signing things without reading/investigating) how can you respect them?
At least with the Lipa concert R’ Shmuel apologized and admitted he was wrong. That is the mark of someone you can respect. This is also a much bigger problem than just this case. It’s the entire rabbinate at stake here. If people know that their leaders act like this, they will not seek counsel, will not seek answers to questions and ultimately will just go off on their own. We do need leaders who are not afraid to admit they sometimes make mistakes. Everyone does, that’s why we’re human and not angels.
health- i don’t know what the specific case is i was just saying weather or not i believe people should take things back im sorry if what i said sounds insensitive or anything similar to that it was out or ignorance of the case
truthsharer -“It’s the entire rabbinate at stake here. If people know that their leaders act like this, they will not seek counsel, will not seek answers to questions and ultimately will just go off on their own.”
It’s not just a matter of Not going to them to seek advice – the question is now if they come out with some Kol Korays -how do you know listening to it is the right thing? Maybe Shev V’al Tasheh is better?
chalilavchas -“Please correct me if Im wrong, but afaik the signed horrible accusation against the family involved one Rabbi.”
I’m assuming you’re talking about the Rabbi from NY who works for the OU?
Well FYI, I just spoke to a friend at the end of last week and he told me that the Rov of the Shul where the perp & his family Davens got up in front of his congregration (hundreds of people) and said the victim made the whole thing up and there isn’t a shred of truth to it.
Health
You are referring to a shul in Lakewood?
WIY – Yes.
Health
I really don’t think all of these Rabbis actually believe that he didn’t do it. Theres something else at play. Something very misguided. If you think about it you can come up with some good reasons why they want everyone to believe that this stuff doesn’t go on in Lakewood.
I dont understand why these people dont understand what a tremoundous Chilul Hasehm this stuff is.
In general society look at the scorn heaped up such people. Look at the damage at the Catholic Church, Look at the damage at Penn State. It brought down the Pope and the greatest college football coach. You dont think a R’Y could be brought down if they were found negeligent?
WIY, its even worse if they think he didn’t do it. If you believe that, how can you trust any of them for anything?
One thing to keep in mind is that every adult is a mandated reporter under NJ law.
yichusdik
I either believe they are stupid and naive, in which case I can’t trust anything they say anymore or I believe that they are purposely covering something up because they somehow perceive that it is for the greater good of the Jewish community. Theres no good, its just a lesser of 2 evils. Id rather believe the 2nd because it makes some sense even if its wrong and crooked and still allows me to not write them off as fools.
WIY -“I either believe they are stupid and naive, in which case I can’t trust anything they say anymore or I believe that they are purposely covering something up because they somehow perceive that it is for the greater good of the Jewish community. Theres no good, its just a lesser of 2 evils. Id rather believe the 2nd because it makes some sense even if its wrong and crooked and still allows me to not write them off as fools.”
Actually it’s a combination of the two. Except for maybe one or two Rabbis they didn’t believe the guy to be guilty. Now after the admission, most probably believe he is guilty, but you won’t hear anything about what happened to the victims’ family from them.
See No evil, hear No evil, speak No evil. It’s funny how they don’t practice this except when it’s convenient, like after the guilty plea!
Apologizing and being humble enough to admit when you are wrong is seen as an act of greatness.
How someone who considers themselves a Talmid Chachom can insult and hurl unsubstantiated accusations at someone and not apologize even when it is proven that he made a mistake is beyond me.
It’s even more amazing to see the same person/people demand respect and seem to have a hard time grasping why people have a hard time respecting them personally and taking anything they say seriously.
Saying they were “not aware” or were “followers” doesn’t make them any easier to respect, it also isn’t excuse we would allow for the lowest of non Jews in any sort of leadership position. I would love to respect some of the people and would person in particular (who is particularly well known and fashions himself a major Posek) who signed one of the recent letters about the case in Lakewood… It’s really impossible to though.
A talmid chacham is called a talmid for a reason- we all need to keep learning and keep growing. Just because one has reached a high, virtually unassailable condition doesn’t mean that one is now beyond reproach.
This whole situation reminds me of when I heard a speech from a kiruv professional who said something displaying a real and total lack of derech eretz. I walked out. If he’s supposed to be telling me why I should be frum, and he’s frum, and he’s acting this way- it doesn’t add up. I don’t see why I should be learning my most profound hashkafos from someone like this. I’m not on the level yet of Rabbi Meir, who could eat the pomegranate and throw away the peel.
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