- This topic has 40 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Call me controlling if you’d like, but since were talking major money here, I want to stipulate that
1- the house should be only on name of my blood relative, not spouse
2- if they sell the house (to move out of the state or country, for instance), I get back the down payment.
Whats the best way and most legal way to do that?
My intention is that this down payment should be for the benefit of my child and the children, specifically.
Any other ideas to ensure that this money doesnt disappear for other uses or to other people?
Perhaps looking into the option of putting the house into a trust or LLC about which you should consult with your financial advisor of his/her recommendations.
Your concerns are very valid!
Good Luck
azoi.is,
You sound like you are preparing for your child’s divorce r”l. A terrible terrible attitude on your part. Start trusing your children-in-laws. Excluding their name is a terrible sign of mistrust, and may introduce rancor into your child’s marriage. You can actually be the cause of their divorce.
I know of people who kept their OWN name on the deed rather than the child and spouse for the exact reasons you mention.
And it turned out that years later both parent and child were very glad of this decision…
Speak to your lawyer about this. Because I only have one child and she has 2 sons, I made a similar stipulation in my will about family jewellery. If my daughter gifts any of this jewellery to her daughters-in law and a divorce (G-d forbid) occurs, the jewellery comes back to the family. I don’t know if American law allows this type of clause, but it was allowed in Canada.
And, of course, if you don’t trust your in-law to have his name on the house, you will not expect him to contribute towards the monthly mortgage payments from his salary. So add in the monthly mortgage expense to what you expect to pay each month.
Can’t help you, my house is 100% in my wife’s name, I’m just a tenant 😉
In any event, divorce court can split the house (value) or award it to the other spouse, regardless of whose name it technically belonged to.
I hear what you are saying and you have a valid point. Your son-in-law should not have a problem with putting the house in his wife’s name if you are giving them the money for the downpayment. I hope you had enough seichel to have them sign a prenup as well before the chasanah. If not putting the house in her name is not going to help much if he will withhold a “get” for ransom.
I hope you see my point and where I am going with this,
mikehall12382; there’s a joke about that
I am shocked at this thread. Are you planning the divorce of your child? So what = you gave a down payment. If you have an issue don’t give it. If you want to give it – give it without stipulations. I feel like I am reading through a goyishe novel.
I second flyer’s comment. I am appalled at the OP’s attitude.
If you try to pull off this stunt, I hope your son-in-law makes clear he will not be paying the monthly mortgage for the house you refuse to allow to be in his name.
here’s a thought. tell your child(ren) that you are LOANING them the money for the downpayment and can call the loan at any time. this way if all is happy in their home you have no need to call it , but if there ever comes a time that things are bad, you can call the laon so that your in law child does not profit from the money you laid out.
Actually putting the house in OP’s name is actually smart, You are NOT allowed to legally give anyone more than $10,000 otherwise they have to pay a Gift tax from the IRS.
If you keep the house in OP’s name and let your children live there for free they dont have to pay the gift tax.
Besides the Bank does not like when parents give large down payments, it a sign of a bad loan
There is no reason the son-in-law should be paying the mortgage, with his income, for a house that is being made clear is not his. Perhaps Mrs. Mother-in-Law has the income to be making the monthly mortgage payments.
It looks to me like OP really would prefer to make the down payment a loan rather than a gift. That way you can get it back and do with the money as you wish. If you need security, why not look into putting a second mortgage on the property.
If the son-in-law is a mensch he will understand the father-in-law’s concerns and be grateful for his help. If he isn’t a mensch, anything is possible when dealing with money. I would suggest a lawyer’s input into this matter.
The larger issue is this woman’s mistrust of her own son-in-law, to the point of pre-anticipating a divorce. The second issue is her controlling nature in attempting for force them to live in her neighborhood, by provisioning a recall of the money if they G-d forbid decide to live elsewhere, without Mrs. Mother-in-laws pre-approval.
One point that no one has considered, is that if you exclude your son-in-law from being on the deed, the bank issuing the mortgage will not consider his income when determining whether to approve the mortgage or not. So your daughter will need to have a big enough income, on her own from her own job only, that will make the bank happy enough to approve the mortgage.
Unlikely.
If the son-in-law is a mensch he will understand the father-in-law’s concerns and be grateful for his help.
You mean that if he is a mentch he will thank his mother-in-law for her “concern” that he might get divorced in the future and that she is “only” protecting her family from him to insure the best financial outcome for her post-divorce daughter, and so he will effusively thank her for making sure that he has no title to the home that he is expected to pay the mortgage for and further be grateful to her for thinking of his wife’s future once she potentially gets divorced from him?
OP – if I were the SIL in this scenario, I would resent you, and probably be upset at my wife if she took your side. I also would not take your money, unless I was really desperate.
To correct a couple of things that zahavasdad wrote:
1) it’s certainly not “illegal” to give a gift, even if it will be subject to gift tax. That is like saying that it’s illegal to earn income, because it will be subject to income tax.
2) the gift giver (donor), not the gift recipient (donee) pays gift tax.
3) for a married donor, there is an annual exclusion of $26k, per donee, before the gift tax kicks in. I believe that would allow for a married couple to gift another married couple $52k a year, without any gift/estate tax repercussions. Even after the annual exclusion is exceeded, there is a lifetime unified $5 million gift/estate exclusion, before any gift tax would apply.
AZOI.IS, as a mother and MIL, I certainly understand how you feel. WE too are the givers in every scenario and it isn’t easy or pleasant at times when it is always one sided. However, on the other hand, b”h we do what we can and we have the pleasure and satisfaction knowing that Hashem has given us enough to be able to help our children and gift our children when warranted. So first and foremost said B”H that you are able and willing to give.
Secondly since it seems you missed my point earlier. You can’t protect your daughter in the event of a future divorce unless you had the foresight of having her sign a prenup. Just as you have heard terrible stories of children losing their houses to their husbands, I am sure that you have heard husband’s holding the “get” hostage for huge amounts of money. So in that sense you really can’t protect neither YOUR investment nor your daughter from what might happen in the future.
Therefore you can either give the money as a loan or a gift to your “children” with a full heart and not cause any machlokes or problems between them. Before we even bought our first house, we moved into a larger apartment and we couldn’t afford to pay for the move, the painting and the carpeting. Both my father and my FIL lent us money. When we had the money to repay them both my Father an FIL refused to take the money back. Their loans were NOT equal but each did what they could.
I have “lent” my clients money (over the years this has added up to quite a bit) never expecting to be paid back. To them it is a loan, in my mind it is a matanah. If they give it back, I am surprised because I usually have forgotten about it, but they didn’t and it makes them feel good. If they don’t I am not worried because I know that Hashem will repay me one way or another.
So my advice to you is if you can’t do it with your whole heart then now is not a good time to do it. If you can hear and understand what I am telling you then decide whether you are lending them the money or giving them the money and include both the children, then forget about it.
I’m not sure why aries is bringing pre-nups into the discussion, especially considering that the OP is discussing an existing marriage not a pending one, nevertheless since the point was raised it is incumbant that it be pointed out that Rav Elyashev paskened that if there is a rca-type prenup involved, then any subsequent get may halachicly be considered a “get me’usa” and thus potentially a halachicly invalid get, and any subsequent children of hers (if she remarries based on it) mamzeirim.
Aries – So do I become a client of yours? I sure could use the money.
to clarify its illegal to give anyone more than $10,000 without reporting it to the IRS. You can give someone $1 Million dollars as long as you tell the IRS and they pay income tax on it.
You can give you daughter $10K, You SIL $10K and $10K per grandchild without being subject to the income tax.
As far as OP’s problem, there might be a way to loan the money with every year an amount forgiven say 10% a year for 10 years then after 10 years the loan is forgiven and its likely the marriage is stronger.
aries, Im sure you are advising the above goodheartedly and with the best of seichel and intentions, but
1- Financially it doesnt make sense for us to give money thats irreplaceable and might end up in places we dont want it to. You, by comparison, B”H, seem to be somewhat of a bank, lending money left and right as the need arises to relatives and friends. We cant and we dont.
2- Nor does it make sense for the couple to continue paying rent and paying up their landlord’s mortgage.
So, Im asking for the most tactful way to accomplish the goals in the most sensitive and least painful manner and with the least financial risk and potential for regret.
Buy the house yourselves, and transfer equity to the children on a schedule as they pay the mortgage/rent. Just make sure you get a lawyer that can write up the document correctly, and probably a Heter Iska as well (speak to your Rov).
If I were the children, I would run from such a scenario (as it makes them dependent on you), but then again, I would (hopefully) be able to afford my own down payment at some point.
Make sure to discuss with both of your children and get their input.
Good luck.
The most “tactful way” to tell your son-in-law that you don’t trust him, don’t trust his marriage to your daughter, but want him to pay the monthly mortgage payments on a house that you refuse to allow be his (i.e. he should pay someone else’s monthly mortgage payments) and you want to enforce that he forever live in your neighborhood?
Just be honest with him. You truly give mother-in-laws the good name they are known for.
The best way to do this — Don’t.
1- the house should be only on name of my blood relative, not spouse
If my father, or father in law came to me with this I would say “No thank you”.* If you don’t care enough about my wife to have her name on the house then really I don’t want to own it.
Two If you can’t afford to just write a check don’t loan the money. Really The borrower is slave to the lender (from Proverbs, don’t have the exact reference handy) I don’t want that kind of relationship with my folks. It will make dinner taste funny.
*Not that they ever would
I would also say that renting on the short term basis can make sense if the couple does not have the cash to buy and own a house. Buying a house that you loose 5 years later because you can’t afford the payments is not a good deal.
Azoi: I’ve come up with a potential brainstorm solution for your dilemma. Tell your daughter to ask your non-blood relative that she is married to for a divorce. This way she can buy the house post-divorce, insuring he has no interest in it. After all, even if it is in her name only, as long as she is married to this non-blood relative guy that you don’t want his name on the deed, it is always possible divorce court will grant him a partial or full interest in the home, since it was purchased during their marriage.
The only possible glitch is, that since halachicly your daughter is not entitled to a ‘get’ just because she wants one (there is no divorce-on-demand in Judaism), he may justifiably refuse to give her a divorce under halacha, and he would be within his full halachic rights to do so.
“to clarify its illegal to give anyone more than $10,000 without reporting it to the IRS. You can give someone $1 Million dollars as long as you tell the IRS and they pay income tax on it.”
The $10,000 was recently raised to $13,000. But you don’t pay income tax on amounts over that, but gift tax, with rates as high as 35%.
“Financially it doesnt make sense for us to give money thats irreplaceable and might end up in places we dont want it to. “
The money will go where HaShem wants it to. Halachically, if your daughter and son-in-law get divorced, she is entitled to her ketubah payment and nothing more from assets accumulated during the marriage. And your daughter is not entitled to inherit your property unless you have no sons.
“Buy the house yourselves, and transfer equity to the children on a schedule”
That would also probably be subject to gift tax.
“as they pay the mortgage/rent.”
And if they get fed up with your controlling behavior, they can stop paying the mortgage and YOU will get foreclosed upon.
I feel sorry for your daughter and future son-in-law.
It sounds to me like OP resents the mechutan big-time for not contributing to the down payment. Also, in this “us” vs. “them” rivalry, clearly identifies his/her child as being on his/her team and the child in law as being on the mechutan’s team. OP wants to make sure that no money ever gets to the other team which didn’t contribute a dime.
The problem is that the married kids will likely not have much shalom bayis if OP succeeds in making them feel like they need to take sides in their parents fight. They must feel like they are on the same team for their marriage to succeed.
My suggestion to OP is to keep the money and not pay the down payment. Hopefully this way you will have less resentment and your kids will continue to have shalom bayis in a rented home.
My suggestion to the kids (if OP is pushy about taking the down payment) is don’t touch this money with a 10 foot pole and instead pay your landlord’s mortgage in a place which is physically very far from OP. Visiting a few times per year hopefully will not be enough for OP’s attitude to create too much friction between husband and wife.
Oh, and OP, regardless of what happens with the house, if you want to ever have a decent relationship with your child’s spouse, don’t EVER mention in front of them that you consider them less close than a blood relative.
“Buy the house yourselves, and transfer equity to the children on a schedule”
That would also probably be subject to gift tax.
Not if the scheduled transfers are less than the cap
“as they pay the mortgage/rent.”
And if they get fed up with your controlling behavior, they can stop paying the mortgage and YOU will get foreclosed upon.
Possibly. Or they try to sell.
I feel sorry for your daughter and future son-in-law.
I agree that it is a horrid idea, but the solution happens to fit all of the OP’s requirements. Personally, I say let them rent and earn the down payment on their own. They will appreciate their new home much more if they actually paid for it. As I said earlier:
If I were the children, I would run from such a scenario (as it makes them dependent on you), but then again, I would (hopefully) be able to afford my own down payment at some point.
Azois – “1- the house should be only on name of my blood relative, not spouse
2- if they sell the house (to move out of the state or country, for instance), I get back the down payment.”
I don’t know why you’re making such an issue. Put the house in your kid’s name or keep it in your name and take the rent to pay for the down payment and mortgage. If you insist on your #2, even if your kid agrees, your kid might not want to argue with his/hers spouse about it, if that what ends up occuring. So definitely in this case keep the house in your name.
I tend to agree with the other posters about some underlying issues. I think you have Taanos and that’s why you came here to let off steam. One thing I’ll tell you – a favor with strings attached is No favor. Either do the Toivah/Chessed wholeheartedly, or don’t do it at all!
“My suggestion to the kids (if OP is pushy about taking the down payment) is don’t touch this money with a 10 foot pole and instead pay your landlord’s mortgage in a place which is physically very far from OP. “
Good idea — geographical relocations can do wonders for shalom bayit.
Of course if the house is in the mother-in-laws name, the son may decide he doesn’t want to pay the monthly mortgage for a house he doesn’t own — and rather his mother-in-law, who doesn’t trust him, owns. Why should he pay for his mother-in-laws house?
AZOI.IS, your kids are NOT the only ones who pay rent to pay off the Landlord’s mortgage. Azoi is is for most young couples until THEY can afford to buy a home. Owning a home is expensive and one needs to be able to handle that on their own. It is NOT enough to be able to handle the mortgage, they also need to hand the insurance, taxes and any repairs and surprises that pop up. Are they looking at a one family or two family? Are they counting on additional income from a tenant? What if that rental is empty for a while? Will they be able to handle it or will they be coming back to you for help?
Honestly, paying rent is not the worst thing and really that should NOT be your problem. If it bothers you too much then this is really your issue and not theirs. Again if you don’t feel comfortable “gifting” them the money then tell them both, I can’t give you the money at this time, but I can “lend” you some money for a downpayment. In that case both of them will be responsible to repay the loan and you are not singling your child out over your in-law child. You will have time in the future to decide whether or not to accept the repayment. If you accept it, you can then turn it into trust funds for the grandchildren or find another way to secure it for your daughter or grandchildren.
Health, if you need me I’m here, but if Hashem has not sent you my way, I am pretty sure you are not desperate for my help.
Aries-
+1
When my wife and I bought our house, we paid for it with OUR hard earned $$$. It didn’t even occur to us to ask our parents for anything.
A house is unlike any gift out there. It comes with 30 years’ worth of payments, not just the down, and you’ve gotta be able to afford that (and taxes and insurance and maintenance) as well….
Good idea — geographical relocations can do wonders for shalom bayit.
– charliehall
I actually heard a shalom bayis shiur on tape from a chassidishe rov and he said that one of the reasons why chassidish rebbes/rabbonim have set up a system where young couples usually live near the kalla’s parents rather than near the choson’s parents is because it happens more frequently that the choson’s parents mix in and cause shalom bayis issues. Not being geographically near them will be good for their shalom bayis.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.