- This topic has 148 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Gavra,
No Gadol anywhere said that contributions to “Adopt A Kollel” are mandatory, just as contributions to any kollelim over the past 70 years haven’t been mandatory. It’s a voluntary Yissachar-Zevulun partnership which is by definition hachzakas haTorah and not tzedaka.
Harav Heinemann’s views are most certainly mainstream and can’t be written-off merely based on his one position regarding ovens.
You seem to enjoy quoting things in the name of “Gedolim” a great deal, even though you can’t ever seem to back them up. After “work”, why not try learning a bit instead. You may want to start with Hilchos Tzedaka.
Phil – How about starting with YD Siman 249:16 and YD 251:3, as well as the Mashmaos of YD 251:14? (I can’t believe I’m arguing for this side, but that’s how debates go)
Also, you are co-inflating “mandatory” with “what is Tzedaka”. I’ll call red herring on you as well.
Harav Heinemann’s views are most certainly mainstream
So are Rav Shachters’. They are just not what the Charaidi Gedolim in EY hold.
P.S. Are you Chozer regarding Rav Heinemann’s Psak on ovens no longer being valid?
P.P.S. Name calling does not help your cause, as much as it may feel good. If you wish to continue with it, I don’t mind.
Gavra,
Please look carefully in YD; it seems you skipped the word “lene’arim”. It’s tzedaka to support the Torah learning of children, which is incumbent upon their parents/community to provide. It’s not incumbent upon a community to support the Torah learning of able-bodied adults who choose to learn in kollel.
“Are you Chozer regarding Rav Heinemann’s Psak on ovens no longer being valid?”
Am I chozer on his psak no longer being valid? It’s for me to say his psak isn’t valid? Huh?
Well, no offense of course but that tree thing was your doing.
newbee: It’s not about being above or below. But he is Halachically Jewish, which makes a huge difference. According to most Poskim, his food isn’t Bishul Akum. You can marry his daughter. No one is putting him on a pedestal for being Jewish. But there are (possibly important and relevant) factors that come from him being Jewish. Denying that is just incorrect.
newbee
“Im not sure what to say, I just dont find these things meaningful.”
I’m not sure why you dont find halachcly Jewish meaningful. Chazal say Af al pi shechatu Yisroel hu. Why would you disagree and say “He isnt Jewish” (in any meaningful way)?
“I dont put a big emphasis “
Nobody here is saying to put a big emphasis. Just acknowledge like Chazal do. That he is Jewish even if a sinner!
“Regarding other people in other countries having a Jewish neshama… I am not sure why that would bother you or others. “
Becasue it is counter factual and illogical.
The thing that bother me is that you dont even respond to questions.
Eg can you buy chametz from a Goy after Pesach? You never attempted to reply to this simple direct question on your position
Or better yet can you sell a goy your chametz (this would be de’oraysa if he was actually a yid)
Since this has become the Ask the Mods thread, I was wondering if my oh so objectionable thread mentioning (gasp!) the halacha regarding triage in life saving (hameivin yovin) was objectionable because in doesn’t fit into contemporary society’s egalitarianism, and if it would have been more acceptable and non-objectionable to mention the halacha if the halacha had been the reverse, since the reverse would in fact have fit into modern society’s chivalrous expectations?
My only comment on the subject is that you probably assume it was me who deleted it but it wasn’t.
My question was really addressed to whoever pulled the trigger. I honestly did not even consider who it is as it is usually impossible to know who did what behind the curtains.
But if you want to reverse, undelete and post it, I’d certainly be cheering you on. 😉
Otherwise whoever made the call I’d be interested in addressing it.
P.S. Why do you think I dislike you? I don’t. Nor do I hold you in blame.
Dislike? never said a thing about that. Just that we have had conversations about deletions in the past so I thought you would assume it was me.
oh shoot joseph that sounded interesting.
Would you mind trying again. perhaps worded in a less “objectionable” way so it gets through?
If it is a real question and you arent up to your usual trolling, There is a decent piece freely available online with some relevent marei mekomos have a look
“The Division of Scarce Resources and Triage in Halacha”
Joseph: Maybe it was deleted because many Poskim assume that it’s not really a triage system.
Mods (any one of yous), can you perhaps slightly edit my new thread and approve it to make it less objectionable as ubiq and Sam appear interested in it as a halachic discussion?
Much TIA
Sam: It is still a valid halachic discussion as it is cited in S”A as halacha l’maaisa (S”A isn’t theory) and the Mishna.
Thank you most friendly Mod!
It was obviously not a thread to be taken literally but to make a point.
You mean you’re not really a christmas tree?
People didn’t disagree with the point you were making, they (myself included) disagreed with the way you made it.
“So half of modern Spain having Jewish neshamos is fine with you”
No it isnt “fine”
Apporoximatly 50,000 jews were baptized during the inquisition out of a population of 1,000,000. Assuming they all mixed freely, if a person’s great-great -great grandmoteher was one of those 25,000 women (assuming 50/50 split) he is Jewish if it is one of the 475,000 non-jewish women he is not Jewish. No other Ancestor matters other than that one mother’s mother’s mother’ mother etc going back aproximatly 17 generations. 2 to the power of 17 is 131,072 out of all those acestors only one matters! For that one crucial ancestor there is a approx 5% chance that they were Jewsih (25/475).
Fell free to correct my math sicne this is quickly off the top of my head
I dont see how you get to half of spain’s population being Jewish.
“Regarding responding to every question, I dont have time to address every nuance.”
You havent addressed any!
ubiq, 50% of Jewish Spain baptized.
Newbee: “it’s not nice to give him a name he finds offensive. I vote you remove it.”
“Thanks, I appreciate it.”
You’re welcome. I was actually asking them to remove the ‘do not touch’ subtitle which was pretty obnoxious. I missed the tree one. mazel tov on your latest sub title. How many titles can one person get? Maybe you win the prize for the most titles now!
The intent was not to be obnoxious, it was supposed to be humerus and was a referencing the subtitle, not the poster
That was clear to you, not so clear to everyone else.
and therefore… It was changed
Jospeh
source? The numbers i came across are 150,000 – 200,000 left 25,000 – 50,000 baptized. Benzion Netanyahu who is an expert on the History of Jews in Spain has similar numbers
There are many villages in South America as well as the western US and, of course, spain and Portugal, whose inhabitants are almost certainly descendants of Anoosim. Baruch Hashem, Many are returning to Judaism although of course, they require giur l’chumra. There is an organization called “Shavei Yisrael” that works to identify and bring back descendant of Jews.
So if it turns out that Pope Francis is maternally of Jewish lineage, bas achar bas, his greatX7 grandmother having been a meshumed, will Francis be taken by Moshiach to Eretz Yisroel during the Geula?
Joseph, Rambam says at the end of Hilchot Melachim that when Mashiach comes the entire world will return to Hashem. Thus, if Francis is halachically Jewish he will unddergo a symbolic conversion and be returned to EY. If not he will become Ben Noach and remain in Europe.
It seems to me unlikely that there are lots of halachic Jews who don’t know they are Jewish. In order to be Jewish, your mother’s mother’s mother’s … mother has to have been Jewish. That doesn’t seem too likely in a place like Spain.
yehuda, what happened to the descendent’s of the tens of thousands of female marranos and Christian convertees from the Sephardic population during the Spanish Inquisition?
Yehudayona, I knew smeone (he has since left this world) who was in ortugal for a professional conference. He said that there are signs that many people are descended from Anoosim (.g. people who make a big show of eating pork on Yom Kippur). Given the hostility towards “New Xtians” it davka seems very liekly that they are halchically Jewish as they would marry among themselves.
Avi, even if the women married Christian men, their children, and their daughters children etc., would be Jewish indefinitely.
Joseph
“yehuda, what happened to the descendent’s of the tens of thousands of female marranos and Christian convertees from the Sephardic population during the Spanish Inquisition? “
After one generation half of them were Jewish (i.e. their daughters children), after another again half followed by half followed by half etc etc.
Obviously some are unknowingly Jewish today if their mother’s mother’s mother etc… was Jewish . But I’m not sure how it can be that many
The real question is how long the hostility to the converts lasted. It’s been over 500 years since the Jews were expelled from Spain.
True, Joseph. In fact, Shavei Israel has brought back many of them and recently brought several descendants of the Kaifeng community to Israel. Of course, they must undergo giur l’chumra as they do not have proof of their lineage.
Avi k
Why “giur Lechumra”
If they don’t undergo giur is there any reason not to ask them to do melacha on Shabbos (when amira lakum is allowed)? Are they considred Jewsih in any sense?
Perhaps they use that term to make them feel better?
Ubiquitin, if there is evidence of their Jewishness but not proof positive they are safek Jewish safek goyim. Therefor, they must undergo giur without a beracha (this was done with the Ethipians). On the other hamd, they could not violate the Halacha. As for Shabbat, being that for gentiles the night follows the day they could do melachot on erev Shabbat and motza’ei Shabbat. Another possibility (for men) is wearing tziztiot in a reshut harabbim. If they are not obligated it is carrying, if they are it is not.
Avi
I freely admit I don’t know much about this topic.
“Therefor, they must undergo giur without a beracha “
Is that true? Either for Ethiopians or the Kaifeng community
You shared some cute vertelach. but didn’t quite answer my question.
If I come across a “Kaifeng Jew” who hasnyt undergone giur yet. Is there anyone who says I cant sell him my chametz before PEsach ask him to do melacha on Shabbos etc
Ubiquitin,
1. It was definitely true regarding the Ethiopians. I do not know what the procedure will be regarding the Kaifeng community but it would seem to me that it should be the same as for the Ethiopians.
2. I do not know if anyone has even asked before you. If you have a strong desire to sell him chametz (assuming that you are expert in the procedure) I suggest that you ask your LOR. Regarding Shabbat, you cannot even ask a certified gentile to do a melacha d’Oraita except under extreme circumstances (e.g. you forgot to turn on the heat and are freezing). Even a shevut requires a tzorech mitzva, hefsed meruba or choleh sheain bo sakkana. You can learn some of the basic halachot of “amira l’akum” in Orech Chaim 307.
He specifically said: (when amira lakum is allowed)
Avi K
a. what DY said
b. Ok wise guy, so can I ask A kaifeng Jew to do melacha under extreme circumstances, when it is tzoreich mitzvah, hefsed meruba or choleh sheain bo skeana?
If you do not know. Just say so, it isnt a sign of weakness it is a sign of strength
Ubiquitin,
1. Not at all. Their yichus in unclear. The Ridbaz (Responsa, 4:219) accepted one of their number as a Jew but that was almost five hundred years ago. Since then there is no way of knowing whether or not they intermarried.
2. I thought that that was obvious from my statement “I do not know if anyone has even asked before you.” IMHO it would not be better to ask a clear-cut gentile to be on the safe side. However, if you are in Israel or plan to come and have a burning desire to have such a problem on Shabbat and davka ask one of them you should ask your LOR as I posted.
Thanks Avi K.
So neither of us know.
I’m not sure then why you’ve been giving me a hard time.
“I suggest that you ask your LOR”
Profound!
Though he didn’t know either 🙁
Ubiquitin,
1. YW.
2. Profound!
3. Mida keneged mida.
4. TY.
5. Shev v’al taaseh.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.