- This topic has 52 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I still wouldn’t wear it.
And that is the point. It really doesn’t matter to me at all whether it really is or really isn’t or anything. Until my rebbeim start wearing it, I’m not either.
And that is why I have no interest in the other thread about tcheiles.
What if ????? ????? told you to wear it. Would that make a difference?
So what if someone does have rebbeim that wear tcheiles? Then is it alright under your standards if they wore it?
???? ?? ????? ???
“What if ????? ????? told you to wear it. Would that make a difference?”
what if ????? ????? told you to desecrate shabbos? Would that make a difference?
A train! A train!
A train! A train!
Could you, would you, wear them
on a train?
deiy,
is Eliyahu considered “min hashamayim” and how does that affect teikus
what if ????? ????? told you to desecrate shabbos? Would that make a difference?
Actually… a Navi has the power to temporarily suspend any Torah prohibition (except idolatry). One of the proofs for this comes from Eliyahu himself when he brought a sacrifice on Mt. Carmel.
So, if Eliyahu told me to (on a one-time basis) desecrate Shabbos, I probably would.
The Wolf
Why the uncertainty?
popa: He should come soon and call your bluff.
“So, if Eliyahu told me to (on a one-time basis) desecrate Shabbos, I probably would.”
Then if he told you to wear techeiles (on a one time basis) then you presumably you would wear it?
Then if he told you to wear techeiles (on a one time basis) then you presumably you would wear it?
Maybe… I don’t know. There is a difference between a temporary suspension of a law and an interpretation of whether a component of the mitzvah is, indeed, that component.
I’ll tell you what. Get me Eliyahu and then I’ll worry about it.
The Wolf
After we test to ascertain that indeed he is indeed Eliyahu then on a one time basis he will be able to instruct us to:
Wear Shatnez and skip work and Daven all day over the protest of our wives.
Lo ba shamayim hi. The gemarah in Menachos has a practical test for techeiles, I.E. techeiles is color fast while other substitutes, such as indigo, the most common one, are not. If the dye passes the test and comes from a creature matching the decription given, loc cit, then who is to say that it is not techeiles?
“If the dye passes the test and comes from a creature matching the decription given, loc cit, then who is to say that it is not techeiles?”
What makes you think that we have understood the test correctly?
In fact plant indigo (i.e. kala ilan which is what the test was designed to expose as fraudalent) also passes the test, so clearly we are doing the test wrong.
If ????? ????? told you to wear techeiles, couldn’t you also ask him if you are supposed to listen to him or to follow your own Rov?
Also I imagine that anyone who is on a madreiga that they are already getting ????? ????? would probably already know what to do in such a situation.
Wolf:
Can you give me the source that a navi is allowed to suspend a halacha for someone else on a one time basis?
Eliyahu is part of the Mesorah (IIRC, from Achiya?) and has real S’micha (and will relink the chain). As such, he is everyone’s Rebbe, and everyone will listen to his P’sak, when he comes in the flesh. That is the whole concept of Taiku.
???? ?? ????? ??? would apply to a Malach, not to a person, and certainly not to someone who was Mekabel the Torah as part of the Mesorah.
If a person claiming to be Eliyahu Hanavi told you to be mechalel Shabbos (without obvious good reason) or to wear shatnez, then clearly he isn’t Eliyahu Hanavi. So the question is moot.
“If a person claiming to be Eliyahu Hanavi told you to be mechalel Shabbos (without obvious good reason) or to wear shatnez, then clearly he isn’t Eliyahu Hanavi. So the question is moot.”
than he is chayav misah
Can you give me the source that a navi is allowed to suspend a halacha for someone else on a one time basis?
Very simple. A navi has the power to make a hora’as sha’ah. The proof is from Eliyahu on Mt. Carmel where he performed actions that were otherwise in violation of halacha.
The Wolf
You don’t need to be a navi to suspend halacha. Non-neviim can also suspend/change halacha (e.g. the chachamim instituting that shofar not be blown on shabbos.) The case on Mt. Carmel was a danger to the entire klal yisrael. Pikuach Nefesh for just one person is doche anything except the big three. The point being that a navi telling me to desecrate shabbos is no different then anyone telling me to desecrate shabbos – if there’s a valid reason such as pikuach nefesh then you listen. If there’s no valid reason then he’s a false navi and he gets the death penalty via strangulation.
Actually, kala elon (indigo) does not pass the test as anyone who has ever washed a new pair of jeans knows. It may be that modern aniline dyes could pass the test. After reading the expostion of the Radziner Rebbe, I am convinced that his analysis is correct as are those who follow his ruling.
Wolf:
Oh I thought you meant where he could make other people be oiver not just himself.
look in the mefarshim in the begining of hoshea about horaos shaah.
The gemara in Menachos talks about a shayala, and Rebbi says when he sees Eliyahu Hanavi he will ask him. The meyuches L’rashba explains that Eliyahu hanavi used to stop by rebbi and they would ask him all their shayalos.
And the klal lo bashamaim does not apply at all to eliyau hanavi. THere is a very famous teshuvas chasam sofer about eliyahu hanavi malach or enosh. HE discusses this at length. he says that the reason eliyahu hanavi will answer ouur taku and all unanswerede question is becasue he is a person so that klal will not apply. So if eliyahu hanavi tld me it is techailes I will continue to wear it.
The real question is if Eliyahu hanavi tells you that a piece of meat is kosher can you rely on it. Many poskim bring various rayas from throughout shas there are amoraim who pasken based on sod hashem.
About them passing the kla ilan test. Take murex and kla ilan and put them in bleach. The murex will not loose the color at all , while the kla ilan will
The case on Mt. Carmel
OK, fine. So I’m wrong. Wouldn’t be the first or even the millionth time. 🙁
The Wolf
Raphael Kaufman, chacham, and anyone else who has the following misconception.
The gemara’s chemical test that I am referring to is not putting the wool in bleach. The test involve a mixture of urine, liquid alum and fenugreek juice. There is also a second test mentioned involving baking it in stale barley bread. Neither of those involve bleach.
That may be 100% true. so did you try that test between the murex and the kla ilan. All I was saying that although there is no chemical differencs there is obviously a difference do to bleach.
When did you try the gemaras test on indigo?
Derech Hamelech: He’s not answering you cuz he’s not Sam, he’s Patur.
“When did you try the gemaras test on indigo?”
I never tried it personally but others have and they found that both murex trunculus and plant indigo passed the test.
Derech: The source for him being allowed to order other people to transgress is in Rambam Yesodei Hatorah perek 6 or 7, I forget. The nosei keilim bring all the raayos, one of which IIRC is Eliyahu.
Wolf: You weren’t wrong. You should stick to your guns until you’re proven wrong, not just asserted.
Chacham: The chemical difference is not in the chemical composition of the pigment, but of the other organic matter in the substance. The dibromide indigo was not synthesized in a lab, it came from living organisms so there are obviously other factors. I was going to post this on the other thread, but here is just as good.
To answer the OP:
Since Eliyahu saw techeiles, if he would identify it today, we would have an unbroken mesorah on it, and we would wear it. If your rebbeim wouldn’t, you should get new rebbeim.
(I’m assuming that we know for sure it’s really Eliyahu Hanavi. )
“Wolf: You weren’t wrong. You should stick to your guns until you’re proven wrong, not just asserted.”
Why not?
patur: You do know what the word “asserted” means, right?
It’s not an assertion that you can be mechalel shabbos for pikuach nefesh without a navi.
Actually the community leaders can request everyone to take off time for a focused day of prayer when their is a crises. Mordechai did that in Shushan and requested 3 days in a row. However, none of the 3 days were normal work days. They were erev Pesach, first day of Pesach and second day of Pesach (at least chol HaMoed, perhaps Shabbos).
Back to topic at hand: If anyone still alive from when we knew what tcheiles was come back and testifies that such and such is indeed tcheiles we should be able to accept him as an ordinary witness. I am not aware of a need for 2 witnesses in such matters.
I think that if Eliyahu HaNavi told me to do something, I would do it! He has a track record, after all, of being a true navi.
“is Eliyahu considered “min hashamayim” and how does that affect teikus”
The MaharatzChiyus has a chakira where he says that ???? ?? ????? ??? does not apply to a machlokes in metzius. He the n attempts to show that teikus are always deep down a machlokes in metzius. The techeiles debate certainly centers on a machlokes in metzius. Presumably then, ???? ?? ????? ??? would not apply and therefore Eliyahu, a bas kol, or any other form of heavenly intervention should be able to resolve the issue.
“and therefore Eliyahu, a bas kol, or any other form of heavenly intervention should be able to resolve the issue.”
R’ Mattisyahu Salomon shlit”a spoke today about this exact topic. He said that s/o approached the Bais Haleivi and asked him since there is convincing and conclusive proof that the true tcheiles has been identified why should we not wear it. He answered that there are 2 types of mesores – 1 is in halachah. If a halachah has become forgotten/discontinued, and s/o can prove or establish the veracity of a halachah then we would continue it even though there was a lapse. 2 is in metzius. If there is a break in the chain of metzius it intrinsically lacks the mesores even if it’s authenticity can be established beyond the shadow of a doubt. This is because once there is a lapse, there is by definition no longer a mesorah-it has to be an unbroken chain directly to Moshe Rabbeinu. However, should Eliyahu Hanavi z”l identiofy techeiles for us, that would reestablish the mesorah, since he would be reconnecting the link to Moshe rabbainu. This line of reasoning would apply only to Eliyau Hanavi and not to a bas kol or any other form of heavenly intervention as this would not constitute a continuation of the mesorah of Moshe Rabbeinu but rather it would be considered an independent source. Incidentally, This inability to continue with tcheilus is the biggest testimony to the strength of mesorah. It is precisely because Korach va’aduso challenged tcheiles in such a public forum, that the message of the strength of mesorah is delivered through our inabilty to wear techeiles due to its lack of mesorah. Conversely any mitzvah we have today, sukkah, lulav etc. is backed by the strength of our mesorah I hope I understood R’ Mattisyahu correctly.
“due to its lack of mesorah”
Why have some many Chassidic minhagim spread so rapidly recently when they have no unbroken chain of Mesorah back to Moshe?
Why have some many Chassidic minhagim spread so rapidly recently when they have no unbroken chain of Mesorah back to Moshe?
You would have to be more specific so that any single minhag could be defended (not everything needs a mesorah bach to Har Sinai).
Let us start with Upsherin (growing boy’s hair until age 3 and then cutting it in a ceremony).
The Upsherin long predates the Chasidim. Rav Chaim Vital wrote in (the 1500’s in) Sha’ar HaKavanos that the AriZal gave his son’s hair “the known minhug of upsherin” on Lag B’Omer in Miron. Many Sefardim also practiced it before the Chasidim. The Ridvaz also writes that “it is already a custom in all the surrounding areas to consider upsherin as a full-fledged neder”.
If a false prorhet should arise and command you not to follow the mitzvos. . .KILL HIM STONE HIM!!
Almost all Kabalistic based customs that are not mentioned in the Talmud can not be considered to have an unbroken chain of tradition back to Moshe.
Tell that to the AriZal.
The lack of unbroken Mesorah chain is the reason why the pre war Litvish community rejected chassidic practices.
No one’s forcing you to take a new minhug upon yourself. Don’t begrudge those who do have those minhugim.
I believe in live and let live.
I am just arguing that those who do not adopt chassidic minhugim have a valid basis.
I am just arguing that those who do not adopt chassidic minhugim have a valid basis.
That’s not what was implied in your post,”Why have some many Chassidic minhagim spread so rapidly recently when they have no unbroken chain of Mesorah back to Moshe?”.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.