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@Chaim87, such a person doesn’t exist in Judaism. There is no person whom we believe make no mistakes, as is well stated in many many seforim and explicit in pasukim of nuvi sheker. this includes the well known line in koheles “there’s no tsadik in the word that doesn’t sin”, and that is true even after the fact. You seem to think there is someone who even before they have acted would demand belief that whatever they do (in the future) is automatically kosher.
Our greatest leaders, every one of the Sheva Ro’im, has made (very well known) mistakes that we explicitly learn about their nature, why it happened, and how to avoid emulating it.
Nothing and no one is beyond the established guidelines of the Torah.@somejewiknow
Fair enough and that includes the Satmar Reba zya too.
Still a Gadol is someone who you know was close to hashem and who generally is correct. We definitely don’t look at thier actions as kefira or borderline kefira. And so where they Gedolim?Now that you’ve explained what a מסית ומדיח is, now explain why Rav Kook fits that definition. I do suggest that you do some real research into Rav Kook’s life and his writings and not just take the Satmarer’s anti-Israel screed at face value.
To digress for a half-second, if you can’t figure out why your posts are not being posted, maybe consider your use of the terms “שם רשעים ירקב”, “מסית ומדיח” and “ימח שמו” and whether they are appropriate or not.
The reason for Chaim’s question whether those Rabbanim would be considered “Gedolim” in your eyes is because you clearly believe anyone who disagreed with the Satmarer vis a vis the “Z word” to be a heretic. Now answer the question.
Re: gedolim. We used to have a smicha from Moshe Rabeinu, and now we have some sort of semicha. So, I would define a set of talmidei chachomim those who got either formal semicha or some srt of respect from other T’Ch. And then within that set, identify rankings – who asks whose questions as gemora often does.
for example, R Soloveitchik learned with his father and grandfather and also with R Ozer (at least during visits home when he was @ University of Berlin). He was also part of early Moetzes until he decided to leave it.
to the original topic, I noticed that front page direct quotes from many RYs are consistent in seeking protection to BNEI YESHIVA. There are also some that say that “nobody should go” … but the theme of “bnei yeshiva” seems to be more consistent. I am thinking that these RYs are implicitly admitting that those who are not learning could go to IDF, they just not saying it directly to the face of the public. But when politicians come to the RYs, they respond – please protect bnei yeshivos. So, possible those who are trying to extend this protection to those who are simply members of the same community as bnei yeshiva, who live on the same street, and wear same type of hats – should not be relying that RYs will be fighting to protect them.
@chaim87
“someone who you know was close to hashem and who generally is correct. We definitely don’t look at thier actions as kefira or borderline kefira”
…is every yid who displays himself as fully shomer Torah and Mitzvos, who have a “chezkas kashris”@somejewiknow, Let me rephrase. Its someone who was so wise in torah, close to hashem and holy enough (by bring close to hashem) that we view his actions that he did in his lifetime to be the right actions with whom we follow. Someone much holier than a regular jew. Now every leader including the holy stamar reba commited an action occasionly that was perhaps not what we should follow because noone is perfect but in general we follow them. Maybe you enlighten us what makes someone a gadol big talker smart alic .
@somejewiknow
Another way to say it is someone who displays an extraordinary closeness to hashem thats not found with a regular jew. Sometimes that’s in torah both hasmada and knoweldge like R Elishyav zl and R shloma zalman zl. Sometimes its in avoda and chasdius like certain rebas (skulen and ribnitza) sometimes it’s both.@Chaim87
I’m not sure where you are going with this. I will restate my comment that (I think ) initiated your questioning me about “Gedolim”:I don’t mean to say anyone must write a response, especially if there is no Torah response, and that is exactly the point.
“so many kofrim” does not change the Torah.
If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
This is the crux of my argument and highlights the absurdity of yours.If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, especially kefira like explained in Vayoel Moshe, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
In an attempt to move the conversation along, I will offer my definition of a “Gadol” and you can provide feedback.
A “Gadol” is shorthand for a “Gadol in Torah”, someone who is an expert in an given subject in Torah such that his published Torah writings (drashas or tshivas) in those fields can be considered authoritative and binding – like a bais din, unless otherwise rejected by a greater authority – like a bais din can only be overruled by a greater bais din.
Any teaching by a Gadol is susceptible to the same “peer review” as anyone else and their status as a “Gadol” is directly an outcome of that peer review. A person whose teachings are neither challenged by other Gadolim or quoted by other Gadolim as authoritative can never be called a “Gadol”, despite an other publicity they may have.
A “Gadol” is only a gadol in the specific area of expertise he is known and positively peer reviewed for. This is in fact very common in the Torah, that someone can be a Gadol in one specific are, and that psak from expertise can be relied upon by large swaths of Am Yisroel, while that same Gadol is considered a complete fool in another area. We Jews don’t generally publicize the “foolish” part of such rabbonim, because of halachos of kavod haTorah and Talmid Chuchum, but if you learn enough Shu”t you come across it rather regularly.You’re dodging the question. Do you consider the Rabbonim that Chaim listed to be Gedolim or not. It’s a yes or no question. We’re waiting for an answer. Your avoidance is quite telling.
@somejewiknow
“If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, especially kefira like explained in Vayoel Moshe, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.”
Wrong, just because they go against vayoel moshe doesn’t make it kefira. If they are a tzadik and they do it then its not kefira. the Satmar reba was one person (who can make mistakes or at least have his shita) and they as a gadol can do differently. Vyoel moshe isn’t a halacha misinai.Your whole silly goal post that one must write a teshuva or sefer to counter the other side is nonsense. You made that up. In fact the only reason that the Satmar reba has to write a sefer about this is simple. Because, its easy to do an ACTION that’s pro Zionism and that alone is proof that its correct. But you can’t really do an action thats “anti zionism” unless you protest like the crazies NK out there. By enlarge the only way to protest zionsim is to write a sefer. So just because he wrote a sefer while yenim did actions proves nothing.
To your defintion of a gadol. R Elyashav R Yosef and R Shloma Zalman ZL were experts in the subject of zionsim too. This mishigas that they have tow rite a sefer to prove that is your own made up lies. Their ACTIONS are authoritive and binding. Had their actions like working for the zionists are well known by other gedolim and yet they were accepted. That’s enough to say that zionsim isn’t kefira. They were “well known” as wroking for zionsists and it was no secret. Again they need not publish seforim. Thats shtusim that you made up. They were also weel versed on the topic of zionism vs not.
Now lets go the Punvitcha rav, His action of rasing the flag and having zionists speak at the ground breaking ceremony again were well known and indeed challenged by other gedolim in yerushlaim who hung up patchkervillen. And it was indeed very much “peer reviewed”. Yet the chazon ish and others atteneded. Did you “write” a sefer? No but he sure did strong actions.
I am also not sure why the sefarim I quoted from don’t count. They were torah experts on this subject And yes “other gedolim ” who were expertes did quote their writings. Just not the ones you hold of.
Overall you make things up as you go along. There is no such defintion for a gadol as you say. its baloney and your own purim torah to answer yourself. A gadol firstly certainly can’t be a mistaken “massies umtiach” or a “mistaken Kofer”. Thats just ridiculous. And someone who is an expert in all of torah teachings like R Elishyav is a gadol whether he hocked up zionism per say or not. And unless other leaders say don’t follow the action that he took, its enough to assume that he took the torah way. You make up your won narrow baised goalposts after you make your decision. That’s just hot air and lies.
@Chaim87
You can just admit that you are either wrong or following another religion. You don’t need to type so many empty words.@ZSK
you would need to define what you mean as a “Gadol”. As per my definition and as per my knowledge:
Was R Elishav zl a gadol? yes
Was R Yosef zl a gadol ? Rav Ovadia – yes
Was R shloma zalman Orbach zl a gadol? yesWas R isser zalman meltzer zl a gadol? yes
Was R tzvi pesach frank zl a gadol? no
Was the punvitcha rav zl a gadol? no
Were the rizyhna rebas like the Aver Yaakov, Shtefenesht (the skullner and ribntza Reba Reba ), Bohush zl a gadol? of those specified- no
Was R shraga fievel mendelovitch who helped so many yeshivas in the USA a gadol? no
Was R Moshe Wolfson zl a gadol? noeach of these would “yes”‘s would of course only be limited to their specific peer reviewed expertise. each of these “no”‘s might be from my own ignorance of a specific peer-reviewed Torah expertise that they might have had.
Something I just saw in R Soloveitchik drasha in June 1945 (right after WW2 and in the middle of political ups and downs in Palestine):
Cohen godol had tzitz (symbolizing Torah learning, answering Torah questions) and hoshen (answering practical questions – to go to war or not, etc). Note that the same person wears BOTH, that is Cohen godol is responsible both for learning and for practical action. Then, he laments that in our days, these two are separated – our tzitz (T’Ch) are focused only on analyzing shulchan oruch (he quotes specifical seforim), and our “cohanim” who are running politics are doing it as if they are the smartest in the world without benefit of Torah views. And he calls (Mizrachi) to be that force that unites both. So, he clearly sees both values and problems in both charedim and zionists and calls to unify for the common goal.
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somejewiknow
That’s your best cheap shot ? You make up your own religion and goal posts and everyone else is following another religion?Bottom line answer the question. Was R eliyasviv a gadol in whatever twisted term you call a gadol. That would be yes or no. And if the answer is no then you are full of it . You make things up and lie and everyone else is empty. I will not stand for it and continue to call you out for this evilness of putting others down .
Your definition of a gadol is made up by you so that you could box in only Satmar Reba and that’s all that counts. It’s comical and sad.
Let the readers know Zionism has a strong makor in our Torah and frum religion . Many subject matter experts held of Zionism
@somejewiknow
r elyshav worked for Zionists as did R Yosef . You said yes . So we have a gadol that worked for Zionists. If Zionism is really sick kefira equal to the conservative movement you can’t be a gadol if you work for them. It’s impossible.Now R shloma zalman and R elyshav learned by R kook zl . Again if you learn by a kofer and consider him your rebbe to the point of him being mesadat kiddushin then R kook couldn’t have been a kofer. Look at his talmudim
R isser zalman zl well he was also very close to R kook and he himself held of mizrachi. He fully supported his son who became the head of hesder yeshiva . Thanks for letting us know a gadol held of Zionism.
We can debate the others some other time. Both R shraga fievel and R Wolfson were close to Satmar Reba and well versed in all sides . But ok let’s leave them aside
@Chaim87,
please provide any Torah sources for any of your claims, as of right now it is absurdist hearsay. Of course, I stand my my original claim that if any of these great men would have done anything that would show that they, chas v’shulem, indeed supported zionism, it would be a kasha on them and not on the Torah.
Again, the only thing that we want from these men and the only thing that this conversation is a about is Torah, so you would first need a “shita” in Torah – a published peer reviewed stance – that you can claim they also agree with. Beyond, there is no claim you can make, except to do what you are doing now and call those great men “kofrim”.@somejewiknow,
I don’t need torah sources. You made up that goal post. ACTIONS by gedolim are my source.
(I also did provide sources but you just don’t like them and they don’t fit into your narrow minded gaol post of vaild sources)You admit that R isser Zalman was a gadol . Well he was extremely close to R Kook, fully supported him and his son became leader of Hesder yeshiva with his backing. These are kinowbn facts. That’s as torah as it gets. Is he know a Kofer?
Just to repeat again I don’t need sources. You made that up. (As I noted the anti zionist camp had to write sefarim as a means of protest. The pro zionsit didn’t need to answer to them and actions alone showed it. Stop making up your own rules. Thats not the way this works.)
somejew, I am not sure sources for what you guys are looking. I was recently reading an interview with a person who was regularly coming to R Eliyashev with IDF-related questions. Once he had a question about what an Yid can violate while pretending to be an enemy on a Mossad mission, and while they were discussing halachik problem v. personal risk v. Mossad needs, this person says he was _shocked_ when he realized how well R Eliyashev was already informed about “Mossad needs” – he clearly had other contacts also.
never will I be a zionist and never will I state that a Chareidi isn’t in this war….shame on all of you …this is hate, this is like the Goyem….shame on all of you….Prayers are the most significant of all and you want to put a gun and harm someone whose soul and heart has been trained to sweetness Torah, and contemplation…….if one of our special forces are harmed….guess who else learns the lesson, all of Israel, shame on you and your lack of seiches
I am not sure what your anger is. All we are say is OK you can chose to never be a zionist like holy satmar reba zyabut many leading gedolim and torahdik yidden chose to be a zionist and held this is the torah way, As it pertians to charedim in the army they can indeed maintain the sweetness of torah and still fight. Its not impossible to have both. I don’t think its ideal for every charedi. And if you are a follower of someone who is against zionism then thats fine. But there should be a path for those that chose to join. they should be encouraged and respected. Its not a treifa thing. its just a diifferent opinion
Let me sum this up, if you are anti frum boys going to the army, you are a kofer Torah. Learning does NOT trump Army service. The is clear in tanach! I don’t know any true gadol that can trump tanach. Very simple. End of rant
tzedikis > Prayers are the most significant of all and you want to put a gun and harm someone whose soul and heart has been trained to sweetness Torah, and contemplation
If there were a consensus among Israeli Jews that they want a certain group to fight, and a certain group to learn and daven for them, that will be a great situation. This is like Yassachar/Zevulun agreement – that both sides sign. It is a contract, not just an agadah that one side can invoke unilaterally.
It seems that currently there is no such consensus. Then, every group need to fulfil their share. Maybe the group that thinks their learning is zechus for others, should be more outgoing in providing Torah learning, chesed, tefilos to the others – and hope that this will be appreciated. At minimum, have explicit tefilos for Tzahal in your shul; go bring food and medical supplies to the soldiers; and teach them some Torah and halochos of being in the army.
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