IDF’s New Haredi Division

@somejewiknow
Fair enough and that includes the Satmar Reba zya too.
Still a Gadol is someone who you know was close to hashem and who generally is correct. We definitely don’t look at thier actions as kefira or borderline kefira. And so where they Gedolim?

Re: gedolim. We used to have a smicha from Moshe Rabeinu, and now we have some sort of semicha. So, I would define a set of talmidei chachomim those who got either formal semicha or some srt of respect from other T’Ch. And then within that set, identify rankings – who asks whose questions as gemora often does.

for example, R Soloveitchik learned with his father and grandfather and also with R Ozer (at least during visits home when he was @ University of Berlin). He was also part of early Moetzes until he decided to leave it.

@somejewiknow, Let me rephrase. Its someone who was so wise in torah, close to hashem and holy enough (by bring close to hashem) that we view his actions that he did in his lifetime to be the right actions with whom we follow. Someone much holier than a regular jew. Now every leader including the holy stamar reba commited an action occasionly that was perhaps not what we should follow because noone is perfect but in general we follow them. Maybe you enlighten us what makes someone a gadol big talker smart alic .

@Chaim87
I’m not sure where you are going with this. I will restate my comment that (I think ) initiated your questioning me about “Gedolim”:

I don’t mean to say anyone must write a response, especially if there is no Torah response, and that is exactly the point.
“so many kofrim” does not change the Torah.
If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.
This is the crux of my argument and highlights the absurdity of yours.

If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, especially kefira like explained in Vayoel Moshe, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.

In an attempt to move the conversation along, I will offer my definition of a “Gadol” and you can provide feedback.
A “Gadol” is shorthand for a “Gadol in Torah”, someone who is an expert in an given subject in Torah such that his published Torah writings (drashas or tshivas) in those fields can be considered authoritative and binding – like a bais din, unless otherwise rejected by a greater authority – like a bais din can only be overruled by a greater bais din.
Any teaching by a Gadol is susceptible to the same “peer review” as anyone else and their status as a “Gadol” is directly an outcome of that peer review. A person whose teachings are neither challenged by other Gadolim or quoted by other Gadolim as authoritative can never be called a “Gadol”, despite an other publicity they may have.
A “Gadol” is only a gadol in the specific area of expertise he is known and positively peer reviewed for. This is in fact very common in the Torah, that someone can be a Gadol in one specific are, and that psak from expertise can be relied upon by large swaths of Am Yisroel, while that same Gadol is considered a complete fool in another area. We Jews don’t generally publicize the “foolish” part of such rabbonim, because of halachos of kavod haTorah and Talmid Chuchum, but if you learn enough Shu”t you come across it rather regularly.

@somejewiknow
“If somebody does something that is against any part of the Torah, especially kefira like explained in Vayoel Moshe, the kasha is on that person not on the Torah.”
Wrong, just because they go against vayoel moshe doesn’t make it kefira. If they are a tzadik and they do it then its not kefira. the Satmar reba was one person (who can make mistakes or at least have his shita) and they as a gadol can do differently. Vyoel moshe isn’t a halacha misinai.

Your whole silly goal post that one must write a teshuva or sefer to counter the other side is nonsense. You made that up. In fact the only reason that the Satmar reba has to write a sefer about this is simple. Because, its easy to do an ACTION that’s pro Zionism and that alone is proof that its correct. But you can’t really do an action thats “anti zionism” unless you protest like the crazies NK out there. By enlarge the only way to protest zionsim is to write a sefer. So just because he wrote a sefer while yenim did actions proves nothing.

To your defintion of a gadol. R Elyashav R Yosef and R Shloma Zalman ZL were experts in the subject of zionsim too. This mishigas that they have tow rite a sefer to prove that is your own made up lies. Their ACTIONS are authoritive and binding. Had their actions like working for the zionists are well known by other gedolim and yet they were accepted. That’s enough to say that zionsim isn’t kefira. They were “well known” as wroking for zionsists and it was no secret. Again they need not publish seforim. Thats shtusim that you made up. They were also weel versed on the topic of zionism vs not.

Now lets go the Punvitcha rav, His action of rasing the flag and having zionists speak at the ground breaking ceremony again were well known and indeed challenged by other gedolim in yerushlaim who hung up patchkervillen. And it was indeed very much “peer reviewed”. Yet the chazon ish and others atteneded. Did you “write” a sefer? No but he sure did strong actions.

I am also not sure why the sefarim I quoted from don’t count. They were torah experts on this subject And yes “other gedolim ” who were expertes did quote their writings. Just not the ones you hold of.

Overall you make things up as you go along. There is no such defintion for a gadol as you say. its baloney and your own purim torah to answer yourself. A gadol firstly certainly can’t be a mistaken “massies umtiach” or a “mistaken Kofer”. Thats just ridiculous. And someone who is an expert in all of torah teachings like R Elishyav is a gadol whether he hocked up zionism per say or not. And unless other leaders say don’t follow the action that he took, its enough to assume that he took the torah way. You make up your won narrow baised goalposts after you make your decision. That’s just hot air and lies.

@ZSK
you would need to define what you mean as a “Gadol”. As per my definition and as per my knowledge:
Was R Elishav zl a gadol? yes
Was R Yosef zl a gadol ? Rav Ovadia – yes
Was R shloma zalman Orbach zl a gadol? yes

Was R isser zalman meltzer zl a gadol? yes
Was R tzvi pesach frank zl a gadol? no
Was the punvitcha rav zl a gadol? no
Were the rizyhna rebas like the Aver Yaakov, Shtefenesht (the skullner and ribntza Reba Reba ), Bohush zl a gadol? of those specified- no
Was R shraga fievel mendelovitch who helped so many yeshivas in the USA a gadol? no
Was R Moshe Wolfson zl a gadol? no

each of these would “yes”‘s would of course only be limited to their specific peer reviewed expertise. each of these “no”‘s might be from my own ignorance of a specific peer-reviewed Torah expertise that they might have had.

@
somejewiknow
That’s your best cheap shot ? You make up your own religion and goal posts and everyone else is following another religion?

Bottom line answer the question. Was R eliyasviv a gadol in whatever twisted term you call a gadol. That would be yes or no. And if the answer is no then you are full of it . You make things up and lie and everyone else is empty. I will not stand for it and continue to call you out for this evilness of putting others down .

Your definition of a gadol is made up by you so that you could box in only Satmar Reba and that’s all that counts. It’s comical and sad.

Let the readers know Zionism has a strong makor in our Torah and frum religion . Many subject matter experts held of Zionism

@Chaim87,
please provide any Torah sources for any of your claims, as of right now it is absurdist hearsay. Of course, I stand my my original claim that if any of these great men would have done anything that would show that they, chas v’shulem, indeed supported zionism, it would be a kasha on them and not on the Torah.
Again, the only thing that we want from these men and the only thing that this conversation is a about is Torah, so you would first need a “shita” in Torah – a published peer reviewed stance – that you can claim they also agree with. Beyond, there is no claim you can make, except to do what you are doing now and call those great men “kofrim”.

somejew, I am not sure sources for what you guys are looking. I was recently reading an interview with a person who was regularly coming to R Eliyashev with IDF-related questions. Once he had a question about what an Yid can violate while pretending to be an enemy on a Mossad mission, and while they were discussing halachik problem v. personal risk v. Mossad needs, this person says he was _shocked_ when he realized how well R Eliyashev was already informed about “Mossad needs” – he clearly had other contacts also.

@tzedikis,

I am not sure what your anger is. All we are say is OK you can chose to never be a zionist like holy satmar reba zyabut many leading gedolim and torahdik yidden chose to be a zionist and held this is the torah way, As it pertians to charedim in the army they can indeed maintain the sweetness of torah and still fight. Its not impossible to have both. I don’t think its ideal for every charedi. And if you are a follower of someone who is against zionism then thats fine. But there should be a path for those that chose to join. they should be encouraged and respected. Its not a treifa thing. its just a diifferent opinion

@square_root
That makes as much sense as saying we owe hakaras hatov to the Hamas captors for keeping the hostages alive or the Nazis for feed the Jews in Aushwitz.
The higarus b’umos (which is the foundational kefira of the IDF) is the CAUSE of all these tzuros, lo alaini!

AVEIRAS NEVER LEAD TO GOOD!

Rav Chaim Shmulevits RY Mir writes that killed idf soldiers in the war, have the status of someone who sacrificed himself for the whole community and that ein kol berya yachol la’amod bemechitsatam ba olam haba.

Now do we have hakarat hatov to that individual who sacrificed himself for the community. Think so …

So Rav Chaim S , who R Chaim Ozer the gadol hador stood for him when RCS was in his twenties, explaining that he has to stand up when the vilna library walks in, says this .

Somejew claims that this is kfira. RCS obviously says its not.

Who will we take on their word ?

RCS or somejew ?

Somejew claims satmar rebbi and the torah support him. All the others who argue, are per force
a] not gdolim or
b] never said it .

Got some news for somejew – Satmar rav also never meant this literally. He deep down also agreed that we should have hakarat hatov.

Satmar rav could not / did not want to, tolerate hakarat hatov to soldiers , because he feared the simple hamon am would not be able to differentiate between hakarat hatov and blind following of the terrible Z movement. [not being sarcastic here]

So thats why SR said LEMIGDAR MILSEH – no hakarat hatov .

But me’ikar hadin there is makom for hakrat htov to those indivuduals who put their life on the line for the klal.

But since Somejew accepts every word his rebbi uttered as literal, he cannot succeed to see past his own nose.

Feel bad for him.
.

@yankel-berel

you wrote::

Rav Chaim Shmulevits RY Mir writes that killed idf soldiers in the war, have the status of someone who sacrificed himself for the whole community and that ein kol berya yachol la’amod bemechitsatam ba olam haba.

please tell me where he “writes” this, otherwise I have no reason to believe an absurd anecdote.

I have consistently backed up everything I write in the name of others (when asked) with specific sources. I haven’t, thank
G-d, made a mistake.

You, on the other hand, continue to push false made up storied without any sources, and you continue to resort to personal (ad hominem) attacks to compensate for your lack of Torah substance.

some jew > such an opinion is not Torah rather it is heresy.

so, now a heardi politician who follows psak of haredi rabonim is a heretic. Very funny, a freiliche Pesach.

Rabbi Chaim Shmulevitz famously referred to Israeli soldiers killed in battle as “harugei Lod,” of whom the Gemara (Bava Basra 10b) says, “no created being can stand within their presence,” and he spoke every leil Yom Kippur about the need to empathize with the dangers soldiers face.

The problem with the israeli army is they allow girls,homosexuals and trans into their army. They have female singers and have forced religious soldiers to listen to them. At any moment these religious units can be closed and incorporated into the general army. You can’t trust them.

AAQ ;

Every day, someone would drive Rabbi Auerbach from his home in the Sha’arei Chesed area of Yerushalayim to his yeshiva in the suburban neighborhood of Bayit Vegan. The rabbi would occasionally ask the driver to make a detour for a few moments outside Har Herzl, the burial site of Israel’s fallen soldiers, which was on the way to the yeshiva. There he would pray, reciting Tehillim (Psalms) for important matters concerning the Jewish people.

What motivated this venerated sage to choose Har Herzl for his prayers? I think the answer lies in the following story which is so revealing of his and the Torah’s outlook on your question.

A student once approached Rav Shlomo Zalman and asked for a short timeout from his studies so he could travel to the north of Israel, where many holy, righteous Jews of old are buried, to pray at the graves of these tzaddikim (righteous people). Rav Shlomo Zalman looked perplexed but didn’t immediately answer. Sensing hesitation from his rabbi, the student elaborated, explaining he had some important personal issues to think through and he felt praying at the graves of the righteous would help him to receive the insights and guidance he was seeking. Rabbi Auerbach replied that he fully understood what the student wanted to do and why he wanted to do it, but could not understand why he would travel for hours to a faraway place to pray at the graves of a few tzaddikim when there were thousands of tzaddikim buried on Har Herzl (the graves of all the fallen Israeli soldiers), just 5 minutes from the yeshiva!
===

KNOWING R SHL Z AUERBACH – THIS IS VERY HARD TO BELIEVE

@somejewiknow
That’s only if it’s halcha and not if it’s hashkafa. In hashkafa like Zionism there is no such obligation.

Furthermore, if the leading anti lived later they surely don’t have to. And certainly if those who published were bullied into submission by his mafia. But all this is secondary

@somejew
Had the opportunity to look again into the shitah of avnei nezer , which we discussed.
It is in YD taf nun dalet [not nun vav] from se’if mem bet to mem vav [If not mistaken about the exact se’if – could be one or two se’ifim off]

He says very clearly that not the guf and not the neshamah are halachically obligated by the shavu’ot.
The shavuot only serve as an indication. An indication of the neshama’s connection to its Source and the gufs connection to its neshama.
And if that connection is severed , then there is a punishment of ‘ani matir et besarchem’.
But going against the shavu’ot is not a REASON FOR the lack of connection. It is A SIGN OF lack of connection.

Ad kan divrei Avnei Nezer .

NOT LIKE SATMAR RAV !!!

.

heimishe > They have female singers and have forced religious soldiers to listen to them.

Your complains make sense for 1950s, when Israeli government was mostly secular and the religious parties who joined the government had limited influence. This is not today’s Israel. If you are serious about it, then the haredi community could create a list of requirements – and if those requirements are fulfilled, they should direct their followers (that possibly full under certain criteria) to enlist.

> Are you really that unknowledgeable?

I am not discussing the Army, I am discussing the position of the religious Jews. We are not dhimmis at this point. Instead of saying “we can’t because …”
have a constructive position: we will join (in some limited way) under these conditions. For example, why not create a cyber unit first, or a support unit that drive supplies, or a sepahrdi arab-speaking unit of terrorist interrogators. And then negotiate the terms.