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Z, I mean papers in research journals that compare health statistics on people after taking a vaccine with others who did not. A number of of them uncovered elevated risks from the vaccines, like myocarditis in young males. Europeans changed recommended vaccines for younger population based on some of this research. There was also a finding that having more time between two vaccines was safer. Etc. Also, when you put even worst estimates of the vaccine risk v. virus risk, for all groups, risk from virus was higher. Researchers by now have access to millions and millions of health records, and conclusions seem to be pretty definite.
As to sudden deaths, I think those are attributed to the damage from the virus itself. Virus seems to be affecting various organs in the body, leaving lasting damage. this might be especially true in communities that were totally uncareful and people were exposed to multiple versions of the virus (wuhan, delta, omicron).
@Zetruth Someone linked to the video of the conference. You originally claimed it was with the Crown Heights Beis Din. It clearly was not, it was just a few random people in various positions in Chabad. So I’m skeptical when you claim that you have “in your hands” a halachic decision by an authority.
Dear Ze,
I contacted the Beis Din. This conference was not them. And they never issued such a psak.
Dear Ze,
it is a big world. People die all the time. Even those that are young and perfectly healthy. I know it’s scary. Your mommy can explain it to you.
PS There is a statistical model to show any increase in deaths. There. Don’t you feel better already?
“it is a big world. People die all the time. Even those that are young and perfectly healthy. I know it’s scary. Your mommy can explain it to you.”
Where was this logic in 2020?
@Neville-Chaim-Berlin The point that @n0mesorah is trying to make is that statistically, no more people are dropping dead of random heart attacks today than they were five years ago. However, in 2020, way more people were dying of respiratory viruses than usual. Like way way more.
Dear Neville,
That logic was very much in place. Priority was placed on stopping the spread in a haphazard bureaucratic fashion. The primary logic was to give time to develop remedies and disperse equipment. If what we actually saw happen was a cultural reaction or the clinical intention is beyond my research capabilities.
But the more the dust settles it’s more and more apparent that the USA really bungled this whole thing. (And I don’t mean that as a political indictment or endorsement. Americans struggled with adversity on a national scale. For maybe the first time in it’s history.)
PS If people wouldn’t have been sick for so long – and the same small percentage died, there wouldn’t have been any shutdown.
CDC has a site Provisional Mortality Statistics, 2018 through Last Month Results. I plotted weekly total deaths in USA by week.
2018 and 2019 have winter peaks of 67K and 58K and summer lowers of 50K both.
2020 jumped from 60K to 80k for several weeks, from March to May;
again from Oct 2020 to Feb 2021, reaching 90K in the middle of that (with vaccine)
then from July 2021 to Feb 2022 with a peak of 85K at the top (delta)
then Nov 2022 to Feb 2023 with a smaller peak of 70K (Omircon)lowest level during summers of 2021 and 2022 is 57K v. 50K in previous years.
plots going to normal previous levels in the last 2 months when data is available – Feb, March 2023 (this does not mean that there are no covid attributed deaths, as there is expected decline due to vulnerable peopple who died 1-2 years before their time).
this site allows a lot of filtering – by state, age. type of area, ethnic groups. I looked at the “healthier” group – 25-35 y.o.
There is less seasonality in 2018-2019 – deaths are in 1000-1200/week for 2018-19, then there is a clear jump in March 2020 to 1400-1600 band, reaching 1800 in Sep 2021, and going back to pre-covid numbers in Feb 2023.
For ages 5-14, need to smooth data to see the trend but still there is one – pre-covid 105/week
increased to 125/week starting first week of June 2020 (end of school year at home) and staying similarly elevated until Feb 2023 and normal now.I think it could be last several weeks of data is not final and could be adjusted, but the trend is healthy for the last several months.
You don’t have to go to this crazy gov site, but I just wanted to make sure I am looking at raw data and not corrected by some web developers.
Dear Ze,
What is the international scale you refer to? I don’t see any totalitarian regime here. I see a bumbling bureaucracy.
Dear Ze,
Just ask Zaphod.
Zetruth
let that be a lesson for life . Eveything is recorded thnk before you speak.
When you record your foolishness it remains there for all to see and laughZetruth,
“this platform was the wrong place to post anything”
Why?
Dear Ze,
I’m still waiting for some real info. The Crown Heights Bais Din never hosted such a conference.
Dear Ze,
The Member of the Crown Heights Beis Din mentione din the link was not part of the conference. He, Rabbi Avrohom Osdoba was actually the one who put out a statement to follow doctors and take the vaccine.
I’m aware of this conference. They is not much in it even worth debating. Might as well just watch eight hours of Mickey Mouse.
Ze, thanks for the link! for those who don’t want to go to the link: the article lists who the panel was: a son of a BD member, a SIL of a former BD member, a melamed, someone who runs a Hotline, a sofer, a Rabbi, and a chiropractor. This is not Beis din, or even individual members of BD.
The article quotes at the end an actual BD member: Rabbi Yosef Braun, member of the Bais Din of Crown Heights, issued a clear call to members of the community not to follow the “lone” opinions of doctors, rather the majority who recommend being vaccinated
So, we can restore the honor of CH BD, B’H.
R Bruan has some interesting expressions:
I am not going to give an answer whether one should vaccinate or not, but I want to discuss the principle of Torah … medical questions are to be determined by doctors. You are not the barometer of truth. This principle that people should debate whether we should vaccinate or not vaccinate, and everybody has an opinion on the matter, is anathema to Torah.“You are not entitled to your opinion when it comes to medical matters!
“You are not entitled to your opinion when it comes to Torah matters!
“A, It’s a waste of time and bittul Torah. And B, the Rebbe wrote to people many times when it came to medical matters, they should not research this matter. They should listen to the doctors and not involve their minds in their condition other than to listen to doctors’ instructions,” Rabbi Braun said.
That was years ago, before the “information superhighway,” Rabbi Braun said. Nowadays, with the “social media explosion, everybody has an opinion which they spread around all over.”
“Every one of these WhatsApp groups should be closed completely – they have nothing to contribute to this discussion,” he said. “You can’t even answer a question about v’sen tal umatar, you are going to decide about pikuach nefesh issues – issues of life and death?!”
And someone will say, I will find a doctor who agrees with my opinion…I will shop out for a rov who agrees with my opinion,” he said.
…
“Conspiracy theories about doctors and Rabbonim is apikorsis,” he said. “You are not an expert – you are not the one to decide if there should be an eruv or not, or to vaccinate or not.”“Furthermore, you have no ownership of your body to begin with. That’s another principle of Torah – nobody has ownership of their body. This whole concept of liberalism where I get to decide what I feel is right and you are taking away my rights to make choices for myself, is also not according to the Torah,” he said. “You are not to decide whether to get vaccinated or not – that is a flawed way of thinking.”
Indifference to evil is a consequence of indifference to objectivity.
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