I guess ChaBaD is Zionist now?

During times like these we need some kind of public display that’s a symbol . What would you suggest we use?

Authentic Jewish symbols which have been our symbols for thousands of years. מצוינים במצוות.
This week – a menorah.
Generally: Tefillin, Mezuza, Tzitzis, Shabbos candles, etc.

Judaism is not the language we speak, the flag we wave, the land that we live in, or the falafel that we eat.

The more we wave the flag, the more we fool people that this secular, nationalistic, cultural nonsense makes them more Jewish.

The world must know that their Jewish identity is ONLY EXPRESSED through the tools that Hashem gave us to express our identity – Torah and mitzvos.

Those who use a flag say היינו ככל הגוים (ch”v); if the Americans, Italians, French, etc. express their identity through a flag and a culture, why can’t we?

The answer is that we are completely different than any nationality. We are not just another nation with nice rituals and cultures that hold us together, rather a nation chosen by Hashem to serve Him in the way that He decided. Only those mitzvos should be used to express what makes us special as a nation.

To the group

Sechel83 said that misnagsim burned the Tanya. I’ve never heard thst before. Is it true?

Is flag such a goyishe idea? Shvatim had flags. We didn’t need flags for a long time that we didn’t have an army so the idea became foreign. Also, we should appreciate tzionim for their position:
1. Original flag had 7 golden stars for a 7 hour work day… at least not 7 work days … I guess they couldn’t agree on number of work hours, so then they grasped for talles colors
2. Compare with bundists who were as non religious sans EY
Their flag was half red, half black, a bilbul of communists and anarchists

Is flag such a goyishe idea? Shvatim had flags.

Flags themselves are not the issue (at the Chabad Lag B’Omer parade, there was usually an American flag, Tzivos Hashem flag and Mesibos Shabbos flag).
The zionist flag however was made specifically as part of a general movement to create a secular brand of Judaism, the flag is part of the symbols that we can be ככל הגויים ch”v.

Now we have a group of American Jews who want to tell Israel how it should be run.

It is the obligation of every Jew, especially a majorly influential Jew, to do everything in his or her power to ensure the spiritual safety and physical safety of the Jewish people anywhere in the world, especially in Eretz Yisroel which is every Jew’s homeland.

Rav shach would consult rav moshe frequently on political issues; it’s not only that the Lubavitcher rebbe was in Brooklyn. Rav Moshe was in Manhattan, which is a few miles further from eretz yisroel.

Those who hold of being involved in the government believe in trying to make it as close to judaism as possible, not a separation of church and state. Even rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik said that a state that will not become religious isn’t worthwhile. The Lubavitcher rebbe presumably would want the state to be run according to halacha too. Whether that makes us “no better than Uganda” is not a logical, Torah based argument.

To sechel83

Funny how you can’t spell “funy”. What is your point? Maybe others understand your postings but I rarely do.

Let’s not get into this endless topic which has merited countless posts in the CR.
Make another thread for it.

To mdd1

You’re absolutely right. Kabbalah is for a select few. Definitely not for the masses.

Vilna Gaon on learning kabalah:

He that is able to understand secrets of the Torah and does not try to understand them will be judged harshly, may G‑d have mercy. (Even Shlema 8:24)

The Redemption will only come about through learning Torah, and the essence of the Redemption depends upon learning Kabbalah. (Even Shlema 11:3)

All those who don’t understand the secret meaning [behind something], do not grasp even the simple meaning. (commentary on Proverbs 5:18)

The Evil Urge is unable to overcome all who occupy themselves in the hinting and secret [levels of Torah]. (Ibid.)

To sechel83

“Why shouldn’t we learn Kabbala?” For many reasons. Edited But let’s not get personal. In the aftermath of the Shabbetai Tzvi debacle, an edict was established for Ashkenazic Jewry that only those who are forty, married, and fully versed in Nigleh can then take on esoteric Torah. Chabad violates this Psak so they are Chotim. And we’ve seen throughout our history the danger of Kabbalah in the wrong hands. It started with Yoshke, continued with Shabbetai Tzvi and now we have ignorant children in Crown Heights who consider themselves Mekubalim. There you have my answer. edited

he wouldn’t advise six year olds to close their Gemaras and study Arizal.

Factual correction for readers who may think that there’s truth in what Qwerty is writing. Let’s break this down:

“study Arizal”
Chabad yeshivos don’t teach kabbalah (Arizal, Zohar, etc.).
They do teach chassidus (the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov, Baal HaTanya, etc.) – much of which is based on kabbalistic teachings, but taught in a way that is meant to be more understood for the common folk (with a proper teacher and background).

“six year olds”
The average Chabad yeshiva begins teaching chassidus to bochurim who are about 15 years old or older. Before that, they only learn Gemara, Mishnayos, Chumash, halacha, etc.

“close their Gemaras”
The average Chabad yeshiva (15 years old and up) has about six hours a day of Gemara and three hours of chassidus (as well as halacha, Chitas/Rambam, sichos, etc.)

To Menachem Shmei
Your point is well taken. I was simply addressing sechel who never tops touting Kabbalah as the answer to all questions. If Lubavichers supplement Gemara with Chassidus that’s great, but if everything is Kabbalah not so much. Btw the Rabbi I generall. Turn to when I need clarification in the Gemara is Rabbi Zajac Chabad of La Cienega who’s an i credible Talmid Chachsm and a wonderful person. As for my remark abput 6 year olds I was speaking Lav Davka to make a point.

@Menachem Shmei,
I am not convinced that the Israeli flag is not for torah and mitzvos just like the tzvios hashem flag. There is kedushas haretz and alot of mitzvios that apply in EY. Now it is true that once upon a time it was used by rashim like Ben Gurion YMS to say we do not need to observe mitzvahs CV’s because we have the medina. And we intentionally only wnat things to be secular to the point of kidnapping immigrants and snipping their peyos off. However, that is no longer the case. We live in a post zionist world. The flag has no come to represnt a simple unity among jewish people. Furthermore, even if its not as “jewish” as a menora, at a time of epic tragedy like this and when it is exactly threatening Jews of Israel for river to sea …There is a justa time and oplace and you can’t just bring a defrence from a sicha said 60 years ago.
As a side note yes the reba z’l was human to and at times changed his opinion too. I know for a chosid that may be kefria but for us layman its the turth. it doesn’t degrade the person to say that. We know he went to college but was anti college too. And no i don’t buy that he went to college for chasdic purposes but would have never gone if not. Thats baloney. he went because that was the mood at the time. But as time evloved he shtigged like we should all be. He realized that engineering is not important in life and then told chasdim not to attend college. My point is things chnage as time elvolves and the same with the flag.

Menachem isn’t Chassidus sourced from a higher level than Kabbalah? Yechidah vs Sod?

Discussed in קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=58874&st=&pgnum=268&hilite=

@qwerty The Gemara says that Torah can be a Sam Hachaim or a Sam Hamoves. When people learn Torah that’s not appropriate for them it’s a Sam Hamoves.
interesting how you explain this gemarah. the arizal explained that without learning torah with love and fear of hashem which comes from learning kabalah or chassidus, and contemplating on the ideas then torah is sam hamaves, lo lishma. see קונטרס עץ החיים
see mifarshim on chagigah. the mishnah also says not to darshen on arayos to 3 people. so dont learn anything basiclly. no chumash, mishnah on arayos, no gemarah – cuz youll bump into that gemarah in megillah, no medrash?? sounds like the yevonim!

To sechel83
You state that Arizal said that one must learn Chassidus or his Torah is a Sam Hamaves. Arizal preceded Chassidus by 200 by 200 years so he obviously never said that. I do agree that one must learn with Ahavas Hashem and Ahavas Torah and I do that when I learn Gemara. Just as important Torah must bring o e to truth. You guys brag that you make a Siyum every year on Rambam But you don’t accept his teachings.Rambam clearly states the criteria for Moshiach and the Rebbe hasn’t met any of the requirements. But you dismiss Rambam because of some speech the Rebbe gavevin 1951

SEichel, for crying out loud! Azahorah shamanu not to understand those statements literally. The Christians went down that path!
You can love and fear HKBH even without learning Kabbola. And it is better to loose out on a portion of a mitsva than to end being a min!!!

To 5783

If I undwrstood you correctly you said that the Arizal and Besht conversed. Arizal died about a 100 years before rhe Besht was born. So perhaps you need to do some fact checking.

a few parts הקדמת ר’ חיים ויטאל על שער ההקדמות
וכן בהפך בהיותו עוסק בחכמת המשנה והתלמוד בבלי ולא יתן חלק גם אל סודות התורה וסתריה, כי הרי זה דומה לגוף היושב בחושך בלתי נשמת אדם נר ה’ המאירה בתוכה, באופן שהגוף יבש בלתי שואף ממקור חיים, אשר זהו ענין אומרו במ”א ההוא הנ”ל, וז”ל, דאילין אינון דעבדי לאורייתא יבשה ולא בעאן לאשתדלא בחכמת הקבלה וכו’.

באופן כי הת”ח העוסקים בתורה לשמה ולא לשמו לעשות לו שם, צריך שיעסוק בתחילה בחכמת המקרא והמשנה והתלמוד כפי מה שיוכל שכלו לסבול, ואח”כ יעסוק לדעת את קונו בחכמת האמת, וכמו שציוה דוד המלך ע”ה את שלמה בנו ‘דע את אלהי אביך ועבדהו’. ואם האיש הזה יהיה כבד וקשה בענין העיון בתלמוד, מוטב לו שיניח את ידו ממנו אחר שבחן מזלו בחכמה זאת ויעסוק בחכמת האמת, וזהו שאמרו כל ת”ח שאינו רואה סימן יפה בתלמוד בחמשה שנים שוב אינו רואה.
הנה נתבאר במ”א הזה כי עון אדם הראשון בעץ הדעת טוב ורע, הוא שלא בחר להתעסק בעץ החיים שהיא חכמת הקבלה, וזהו עצמו עון הערב רב האומרים למשה ‘דבר אתה עמנו ונשמעה’ בעץ הדעת טוב ורע, ‘ואל ידבר עמנו אלהים פן נמות’ בסתרי תורה, כסברת הטועים קצת בני תורה אשר בזמנינו זה המוציאים שם רע על חכמת האמת חיי עולם…
וזה סוד מה שאמרנו לעיל כי הקורא במשנה ובתלמוד נקרא עבד המשמש את רבו על מנת לקבל פרס, מה שאין כן בחכמת האמת, כי הוא מתקן כביכול, ונותן עוז וכוח למעלה וזהו נקרא עוסק בתורה לשמה בלי ספק
(i wrote kabala or chassidus, to love and fear hashem, you need to think about him not just halachos)
rambam hilchos yesodai hatorahperek 3
האל הנכבד והנורא הזה–מצוה לאוהבו וליראה ממנו, שנאמר: “ואהבת את ה’ אלוהיך” (דברים ו ה; דברים יא א), ונאמר: “את ה’ אלוהיך תירא” (דברים ו יג; דברים י כ). והיאך היא הדרך לאהבתו ויראתו? בשעה שיתבונן האדם במעשיו וברואיו הנפלאים הגדולים, ויראה מהם חכמתו שאין לה ערך ולא קץ, מיד הוא אוהב ומשבח ומפאר ומתאווה תאווה גדולה לידע השם הגדול, כמו שאמר דוד: “צמאה נפשי לאלוהים לאל חי” (תהלים מב ג).
and he goes on to talk about maase brashin and maase merkava perek 4
הלכה יב
בזמן שאדם מתבונן בדברים האלו ומכיר כל הברואים ממלאך וגלגל ואדם כיוצא בו ויראה חכמתו של הקב”ה בכל היצורים וכל הברואים מוסיף אהבה למקום ותצמא נפשו ויכמה בשרו לאהוב המקום ברוך הוא ויירא ויפחד משפלותו ודלותו וקלותו כשיעריך עצמו לאחד מהגופות הקדושים הגדולים וכ”ש לאחת מהצורות הטהורות הנפרדות מן הגולמים שלא נתחברו בגולם כלל וימצא עצמו שהוא ככלי מלא בושה וכלימה ריק וחסר.
when i was i child, no one told me to learn kabala, tanya baal peh thats all (extra curriculum – at home). we started learning chassidus and 12 very basic conceps of chassidus, which as know to anyone who learns chassidus, sometimes chassidus brings kabala to explain a point, and it explains ideas in kabala in a way that an average person can understand. and in derech mitzvosecha mitzvas tefillah there is a whole introduction, about how to understand the kabalistic way of talking about hashem, so no one makes a mistake)

@mdd ridiculous comment, basicly youre saying just do mitzvos for gen eden gehenom. take hashem out of the picture, cuz you may understand him wrong, that dosent make you a believer either, just because you never think of him lest you imagine him in some kind of form.

To sechel83

“I wrote kabala or chassidus”. Wrong you said thatArizal said that one who doesnt learn Chassidus or Kabbala his Torah is Sam Hamaves. When I called you out for being an inveterate liar you changed your story.

@qwerty ok i made a mistake. the arizal talks about kabala. this is why we learn chassidus which includes (but not only) kabala – explains many concepts to even lower level neshamos – simple people.
besides its a clear rambam that the way to love and fear hashem is by thinking and contemplating about him. (just like you wont like anything (even in this world) before knowing what it is, basic concept no need to explain) this is not jumping to higher levels, the rambam hilchos tshuvah perek 10: הלכה ה
כל העוסק בתורה כדי לקבל שכר או כדי שלא תגיע עליו פורענות הרי זה עוסק שלא לשמה וכל העוסק בה לא ליראה ולא לקבל שכר אלא מפני אהבת אדון כל הארץ שצוה בה הרי זה עוסק בה לשמה ואמרו חכמים לעולם יעסוק אדם בתורה ואפילו שלא לשמה שמתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה לפיכך כשמלמדין את הקטנים ואת הנשים וכלל עמי הארץ אין מלמדין אותן אלא לעבוד מיראה וכדי לקבל שכר עד שתרבה דעתן ויתחכמו חכמה יתירה מגלים להם רז זה מעט מעט ומרגילין אותן לענין זה בנחת עד שישיגוהו וידעוהו ויעבדוהו מאהבה.

הלכה ו
דבר ידוע וברור שאין אהבת הקב”ה נקשרת בלבו של אדם עד שישגה בה תמיד כראוי ויעזוב כל מה שבעולם חוץ ממנה כמו שצוה ואמר בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך אינו אוהב הקדוש ברוך הוא אלא בדעת שידעהו ועל פי הדעה תהיה האהבה אם מעט מעט ואם הרבה הרבה לפיכך צריך האדם ליחד עצמו להבין ולהשכיל בחכמות ותבונות המודיעים לו את קונו כפי כח שיש באדם להבין ולהשיג כמו שבארנו בהלכות יסודי התורה:
another clear halacha in sh”u hilchos tefillah siman 98:
המתפלל צריך שיכוין בלבו פי’ המלות שמוציא בשפתיו ויחשוב כאלו שכינה כנגדו ויסיר כל המחשבות הטורדות אותו עד שתשאר מחשבתו וכוונתו זכה בתפלתו ויחשוב כאלו היה מדבר לפני מלך בשר ודם היה מסדר דבריו ומכוין בהם יפה לבל יכשל ק”ו לפני ממ”ה הקב”ה שהוא חוקר כל המחשבות
וכך היו עושים חסידים ואנשי מעשה שהיו מתבודדים ומכוונין בתפלתם עד שהיו מגיעים להתפשטות הגשמיות ולהתגברות כח השכלי עד שהיו מגיעים קרוב למעלת הנבואה ואם תבא לו מחשבה אחרת בתוך התפלה ישתוק עד שיתבטל המחשב’
ויחשוב קודם התפלה מרוממות האל יתעלה ובשפלו’ האדם ויסיר כל תענוגי האדם מלבו
chabad and many other Chassidim (maybe non chassidim too – but in order to think about the greatness of hashem you need to first learn about it (one can see some greatness of hashem in the creation but that leads to a limited love and fear of hashem, chassidus and kabala teaches much more about the graeatness of hashem) are very careful in this halacha in shulchan aruch. and therefore learns chassidus – רוממות האל – and causes not to desire pleasures of this world, (and can even bring a person to the level of nevuah see rambam hilchos yesodai hatorah, (btw about nevuah today, the rambam clearly writes in igeres timan תחזור הנבואה לישראל בשנת ארבעה אלפים תתקע”ו ליצירה ואין ספק שחזרת הנבואה היא הקדמת משיח) for an hour or 2 before davening.
i was never tought hashems 42 letter name and i dont know anyone who was.

chas vishalom chabad was not influenced by zionism at all.