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To Always
By no means am I i mplying that I have a pipeline to Hashem. All I’m saying is that each and every one of us must think lo g and hard as to what he and she can do to ameliorate our relationship with Hashem. Personally, I’m saying Shir Hashirim every day as well as Tehilim 121, 130 and 142 after each Tefilah in addition to my learning. We are in serious danger and we all must do whatever we can.
Qwerty, I am with you on tehilim and learning, but not with saying this is all we can. We had in last parsha Yaakov doing 3 things: war, daven, gifts ..
To always
We’re in agreement. We have to do whatever we can to give Nachas to Hashem. This is a very dangerous time. Yes we know that ultimately Hashem will send Moshiach but who knows what terrible things we’ll have to face before his arrival. I alpreciate our exchanges because you clearly have ypur head on straight.
Looking again at Yaakov’s behavior that was copied by Tannaim – there seems to be that Yaakov does something before doing “3 things” – “vaishlach” fisrt messengers is not part of those 3. This seems to be a preliminary step, that we now call “intelligence” – finding out the number of terrorists Esav is bringing and what is on their mind. This intelligence drives war/prayer/gifts steps.
To Always
I’m not disagreeing with you, but I think you’re confusing issues. When the Torah told us the three things that Yaakov did, it was to teach us how to prepare when we have to deal with Eisav and, of course, his descendants. Neither you nor I are on the front lines, so our responsibility is different. We have to focus on self-improvement and assisting others so that Hashem becomes more favorably inclined to us. Edited but let me share the following. This year, I was in a Sukkah on the first night of the Yom Tov and one fellow said to his friend, “Everything we have in our lives comes from the Rebbe.” The other responded, “Of course. We live in the shadow of the Rebbe.” It’s time for all Jews, even Chabad, to wake up and recognize that our only hope is through Hashem.
Qwerty,
Do you intentionally spend so much time around Chabad (a Chabad shul, Chabad meals, etc.) in order to collect statements that you don’t like and put them online?
To Menachem Shmei
If I didn’t explain this in my earlier posts I’ll explain it now. During the week I attend a Shul whose Rabbis are all Chabad. The congregants are Russian Jews who follow Chabad practices since that’s tje only Judaism they’ve ever experienced. On Shabbos I go to a Litvish shul but it’s a rather long walk. The Rabbis know that I’m against Chabad theology but I keep my mouth shut because we have a marriage of co venience. I daven each day for the Amud and I have a shul that’s near to where I live. Tbe Rabbis are brothers and they’re lovely so we get along. It’s as simple as that. Of course I take advantage of the opportunities to personally witness Chabad kefirah and I then share it with tje group. Please feel free tl ask me any question
you’d like. editedTo Menachem Shmei
I’ve told the group that I daven in a Chabad shul during the week. And yes I pick up a lot of material there. And every word of it is true.To Menachem Shmei
What difference does that make? And let’s assume that I’m getting material for Dr. Berger’s next book So what? Attack me on the facts bit you can’t because you know that Chabad teaches itsinions that the Rebbe.runs the world.> “Everything we have in our lives comes from the Rebbe.”
I once was at a wedding attended, among others, by local Chabad and visiting Lakewood rabonim. Musician, belonging to the first group, winked and started playing moschiach nigun. A Lakewood Rav got up, locked his hands with a Chabad guy, and dancedf wiht him until the otherguy fell from exhaustion, demonstrating that Chabad does not have a monopoly on Moschiach … so, maybe you can use this opportunity to bring some positive messages to these guys. For example, quote other T.Ch. when thy discuss an issue, or bring up some Gemorahs hat can make them think …
qwerty: it was to teach us how to prepare when we have to deal with Eisav and, of course, his descendants. Neither you nor I are on the front lines, so our responsibility is different.
You may be right regarding the actions, but we Jews, as a group, need to somehow agree on what is important. There are people/groups that emphasize “self improvement” as an explicit alternative to supporting those who are fighting. I hope we come closer to a joint view here. And it is probably a big source of frustration for many people in US that there is not much we can do. Still, people find opportunities – some places packed/donated for the gear for soldiers, others went on tours packing and doing other jobs in Israel where usual workers deployed.
Disclaimer: there are halachos and daas torah who make these decisions, not “we as a group”
Mod,
1) there are different views on these issues among Rabonim, so there is room for debate here. If you feel that certain Rabonim you trust and others are not legit (just an assumption that might be wrong), then you are essentially claiming your own opinion of who is to be trusted. For a,hopefully, non-controversial example – there are/were people who felt strongly for/against L Rebbe, R Moshe
(less of), R Soloveichik. As far as I know, they themselves were respectful of each other.2) My regular circular reference to “my Daas Torah”. According to him, what Rabbis (over centuries) write in teshuvos depend on what people ask in their shailos. So, if you ask your DT how you could contribute to unitu of Am Isroel and whether you should/could daven for safety of Jewish soldiers fighting terrorists, you will be – indirectly – affecting the debate among poskim. Don’t be shy.
I wrote a disclaimer, instead of deleting, to your implication that these issues are ours to “decide as a group”. Period.
To the moderator
I totally agree with you. It’s not the place for us Monday Morning quarterbacks to think that we can decide what has to be done. All we can do is Daven to Hashem for a speedy positive resolution. Moreover, by working to improve ourselves, we demonstrate to Hashem that we are worth being saved.
A good illustration of different opinions on participation/interest in political events (hope I recall the story correctly):
During WW2, someone sent R Soloveichik an article written by a British Jew who encountered religious German Jews in a British internment camp. The author was shocked that these Yidden were discussing for days events during wars in Roman empire, while completely ignoring current events in North Africa, Normandy, etc that were affecting their own lives. The author contrasted Jews of the past – from Avot to Tannaim who dealt with events of their time with the current reluctance to face reality.
The sender hoped that the Rav will respond publicly to the article. He did not at the time, but he remarked maybe 10+ years later: I hope that the author of the article is still alive and can observe Israeli politicians so that he does nbot worry any more that Jews are not capable of active politics any more.
Mod > I wrote a disclaimer, instead of deleting,
Thanks, appreciate it! I think you are concerned that I propose a straight vote by amei haaretz, I did not mean that. I meant that we, as a community, need to deal with these issues, without really going into the mechansims, whether it is a Moetzes, a Sanhedrin or a Knesset that will decide. If you feel that “lay people” should not concern themselves with overall direction of the community at all, I don’t think this makes any sense or this is what Hashem wants from Am Isroel.
As to direct participation in the direction of the nation, we have, for example, Yidden coming to Shmuel demanding a melech, and both Hashem and Shmuel reluctantly acquiesce.
They approached their rav, and received a psak. Exactly.
To Lostspark and Menachem Shmei
Let me tell you an interesting story. Before I came to YWN I was disputing Chabad on VIN. Since Lubavichers aren’t capable of advancing substantive arguments they just resorted to name-calling and so I left that site and joined YWN. When the war started I called for a truce with Chabad. I checked out VIN for war-related updates and commented on how impressed I was that so many Jews were becoming committed to Mitzvos. One fellow, who had viciously insulted me, remarked that he was shocked that we could agree on anything. The same thing occurred a week later. I told him that if we could make peace it would give Hashem tremendous Nachas, but he didn’t respond to that overture. I fully understand that Lubavichers will not be swayed from their beliefs, but why don’t you guys get into discussions that are nondenominational? Now we’re talking about the war let’s hear your opinions. I know that there are many exceptionally bright Lubavichers.
To the group
I would suggest a compromise position between that of Always and the moderator. If we look at current events, clearly Hashem is pulling the strings. Hamas perpetrated an act of unimaginable savagery and the world responded by attacking Israel and the Jewish people. This can only mean that Hashem is speaking to us and telling us to get our houses in order. Therefore, as Always is saying, Hashem is interested in hearing from the common Jew, but, as the Moderator asserts ultimately we must follow Daas Torah. But it’s not so simple because there is no consensus on who or what is Daas Torah. Moreover, most Jews aren’t observant so obviously, Daas Torah is irrelevant to them. It seems then that our best option is to direct our prayers to Shamayim
ונ”ל על פי מה שאמרו רבותינו ז”ל (שם בתענית דכ”ד ע”ב) בכל יום בת קול יוצאה ואמר כל העולם ניזון בשביל חנינא בני וחנינא בני די לו בקב חרובין וכו’, נמצא שהיה ר’ חנינא בן דוסא הצינור המשפיע שפעו לכל העולם, וזהו [בשביל] חנינא בני, שהוא לשון דרך ומעבר, כשביל זה שהוא מעבר לכל, כן הוא היה מעבר ההשפעות לעולם,
(לקוטים יקרים ד”ו ע”ד, אור תורה פ’ בחקותי).
from the baal shem tovtodays tanya says that its the answer to all the questions, the baal hatanya is referring to questions in avodas hashem but it also answers all the attacks on chabad. yes learn the 2nd perek tanya what a jew is, what a rebbe is. if you want to know where the sources for tanya is (because you cant trust the alter rebbe) see the rabbe’s notes on tanya רשימות על התניא printed (btw the rebbe wrote all the notes when he was in paris attending (some) classes in unuversity (tons of work for anyone even a big gadol, finding the source for everything in bavli, yerushalmi, medrash, zohar, sifrai kabalah etc.)
“Everything we have in our lives comes from the Rebbe” see tanya perek 2, perek 51-53.
“כל העולם ניזון בשביל חנינא בני” (תענית כ”ד ע”ב), maharal.
(all these complains all old complaints starting in the time of the magid or even the baal shem tov. when some big misnagdim started machlokes again in 5749, the gerer rebbe and other great rebbe’s made a big machaa printed inn the hamodia)To Menachem Shmei and Sechel83
You guys have me confused. Menachem is angry because I reported that the two guys said that the Rebbe supports them but sechel says that it’s open in Tanya. So I have another one. At this past year’s Seudas Moshiach the Rabbi declared, “We have no reason to be afraid because Hashem and the Rebbe are protecting us.” So is it a 50-50 partnership or what?
Qwerty,
I fully understand that Lubavichers will not be swayed from their beliefs, but why don’t you guys get into discussions that are nondenominationalכל הפוסל במומו פוסל
If you go through my replies, you will find me commenting on a wide variety of topics in many different threads.
Of course, a very big and noticeable portion of my comments are regarding Lubavitch, since I’m a Lubavitcher and I love Lubavitch.The question turns over to you, Qwerty:
EVERY SINGLE one of your posts since you joined the CR was in the three or four threads about Lubavitch. You have not posted ONE COMMENT in any other thread.Being that you aren’t Lubavitch, what’s the reason for this?…
In summary: I’m obsessed with defending a certain Jewish group because I’m in love with it, you’re obsessed with condemning and accusing a certain Jewish group because you………
Qwerty – on multiplicity of position by T’Ch. A good point.. At some point, there was a Sanhedrin that resolved differences. Later on, Jews were dispersed and each community had their own approach. So, you would ask _your_ Rav as, usually, there were no other available. You can see several cases in Tannaim and Amoraim that deviations created problems even then.
Rabbi Yehuda is not happy of R Meir’s students like Sumkus who quote their rebbe.
Rav Yehuda who learned by both Rav & Shmuel points to R Nachman everything he is doing wrong according to his teacher Shmuel ….So, in our times, many people are naturally exposed to multiple views. Some go to one shul during ther week, another on shabbos … So, they are now enabled to effectively choose (aka vote) between different T’Ch. So, it is possible to choose one shitah and then berate others for “not following T’Ch” where the notion of T’Ch is defined by the speaker. Even if we might not solve this problem here, we should at least acknowledge the situation and be more humble about the issue.
Sorry, your interpretations of how following daas torah works does not qualify as a ‘situation that should be acknowledged.’
Menachem, because he cares about you and is concerned if he thinks you are doing something fundamentally wrong and he tries to understand related halachik concepts. As Chabad seems to care about other Yidden and wants them to learn and care about other Yidden – mission accomplished.
To Menachem Shmei
I’m obsessed with condemning Chabad because your theology is anathema to Hashem. In these times when G-d is clearly in judgment mode those who believe in Him must declare Aion Od Milvado and categorically reject a movement that asserts that the Rebbe is His equal partner or has supplanted Him. This is not hyperbole on my part. I am simply quoting the many Chabad Rabbis I know. To your credit, you know better than to accuse me of lying, because I don’t. Instead, you and your landsmen resort to any variety of tactics to portray me in a negative light. But you can’t stop me. As for your question, and it’s a good one, “Why don’t I comment on other subjects on this site?” The answer is simple. I have been a regular contributor to the Jewish Press for the last 40 years and I’ve covered a vast array of subjects. I focus on Chabad at YWN for a simple reason, it’s the only venue that allows me to call out your Kefirah. Interesting you feel that way as i probably delete 50% of your posts.
Hope that answers your question. And oh yes. Checkmate.
To Always
Thank you so much for your latest comment, because you nailed it. Any rational person recognizes how far Chabad theology is from actual Judaism. I know that Lubavichers mean well and I certainly agree that they do much good, but I pride myself on being devoted to the truth and so I must tell it like it is. If Sechel83 can actually state that Tanya teaches that the Rebbe is the source of all blessings
does anything more need to be said?To Moderator
Obviously, I know that a significant percentage of my posts don’t get through, but I’m okay with that because each one takes me just a minute or two to write. I greatly appreciate the fact that you allow me to express my views about Chabad. I believe that sometime, hopefully in the near future, Hashem will make His presence so manifest
Edited
“In these times when G-d is clearly in judgment mode those who believe in Him must declare Aion Od Milvado and categorically reject a movement that asserts that the Rebbe is His equal partner or has supplanted Him.”
i may have mentioned this before. i look higher at the rebbe than some look at hashem. some think they can understand hashems ways, for me even the rebbe is a neshama diatzilus which is totally beyond anything i can imagine, there are certain things we know about tzadikim, but its nothing compared to what they really are. and as it says in perek 2 of tanya that we learned yesterday, that atzilus is nothing compared to hashem.
so the problem is not that we speak so highly of the rebbe, the problem is that others think that hashem is so low!To Sechel83
I definitely acknowledge that I have little or no understanding of Hashem’s ways and therefore I don’t offer quick-fix solutions for the present crisis. I simply daven to Hashem that He should have mercy on us, end the war, and bring Moshiach. Let me ask you two questions. First, “Do you believe that Hashem and the Rebbe are partners?” Second, “What, if anything, does Ain Od Milvado mean to you?”
To sechel83
As you stated last week, “It’s the Rebbe and not Hashem who provides sustenance to the world, so what, if anything is G-d’s function?”
sechel83:
ונ”ל על פי מה שאמרו רבותינו ז”ל (שם בתענית דכ”ד ע”ב) בכל יום בת קול יוצאה ואמר כל העולם ניזון בשביל חנינא בני וחנינא בני די לו בקב חרובין וכו’, נמצא שהיה ר’ חנינא בן דוסא הצינור המשפיע שפעו לכל העולם, וזהו [בשביל] חנינא בני, שהוא לשון דרך ומעבר, כשביל זה שהוא מעבר לכל, כן הוא היה מעבר ההשפעות לעולם,
(לקוטים יקרים ד”ו ע”ד, אור תורה פ’ בחקותי)As far as I can translate (and I’m usually pretty good with that) this means that all hashpo’ó comes VIA the tzaddik, which is not the same at all as what you wrote in a later post:
“Everything we have in our lives comes FROM the Rebbe”From and via are two different things, and there is a VAST difference in concept between the two in this area.
To ARSo
It’s great to have you back. I really don’t want to be a lone wolf “attacking” Chabad. I put attacking in quotations because, as Alway Ask noted, the goal of those who criticize Chabad is simply to get them to realize the folly of their ways. Rav Dovid Feinstein zatzal has a beautiful insight in his Kol Dodi Haggadah. Regarding the line, “All who expand on Sippur Yetzias Mitzrayim are praiseworthy.” Rav Dovid commented, “People talk about what’s important to them.” When we look at the Lubavichers in this and other sites do they ever mention Hashem? Yesterday sechel83 again pledged his devotion to the greatness of the Rebbe. Look Rav Moshe’s greatness was beyond my comprehension, but I never lose sight that no one is anything when compared to HKBH.
Regarding the line, “All who expand on Sippur Yetzias Mitzrayim are praiseworthy.” Rav Dovid commented, “People talk about what’s important to them.” When we look at the Lubavichers in this and other sites do they ever mention Hashem?
אִם הָיָה קָטָן אוֹ טִפֵּשׁ אוֹמֵר לוֹ בְּנִי כֻּלָּנוּ הָיִינוּ עֲבָדִים כְּמוֹ שִׁפְחָה זוֹ אוֹ כְּמוֹ עֶבֶד זֶה בְּמִצְרַיִם וּבַלַּיְלָה הַזֶּה פָּדָה אוֹתָנוּ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא וַיּוֹצִיאֵנוּ לְחֵרוּת. וְאִם הָיָה הַבֵּן גָּדוֹל וְחָכָם מוֹדִיעוֹ מַה שֶּׁאֵרַע לָנוּ בְּמִצְרַיִם וְנִסִּים שֶׁנַּעֲשׂוּ לָנוּ עַל יְדֵי משֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ הַכֹּל לְפִי דַּעְתּוֹ שֶׁל בֵּן:
When telling the story of Yetzias Mitzrayim, the foolish child is told that only Hashem redeemed us because if you told him about Moshe he would start accusing you of Avoda Zara.
However, when talking to the wise child, only Moshe is mentioned, since the child is wise enough to understand that Moshe is just Hashem’s shliach (שלח נא ביד תשלח) to redeem the Yidden.
[Of course, this is דרך הצחות.
The Eibeshter is the center of my life and the life of anyone I know.
Thanks to chassidus, I and my fellow Lubavitchers possibly think more about Hashem every day than the average frum Jew, because in our yeshivos, in addition to learning Gemara (which is Torah, but rarely discusses the נותן התורה) we spend time learning parts of Torah that specifically teach about Hashem (chassidus). 😳-modQwerty’s false accusations are just another example of his baseless hate for groups of Yidden which he disguises in his claim of helping them “realize the folly of their ways.” If he actually cared about them, he wouldn’t need to come up with false accusations.
It also displays Qwerty’s lack of knowledge of how to check and search through a poster’s previous posts… Or maybe he doesn’t know that G-d with a hyphen refers to Hashem?]Menachem: “Thanks to chassidus, I and my fellow Lubavitchers possibly think more about Hashem every day than the average frum Jew”
The very sad part about your claim is that you probably believe it. And I have heard this idea, in different words, from many Lubavichers who probably also believe it.
It is such garbage that I am flabbergasted! I have a vast knowledge of Lubavich – as I believe I have demonstrated in other threads in the CR – and I have a lesser but nonetheless broad knowledge of other groups to which I do not belong, including other chassidishe chatzeiros, yeshivishe communities, and the modern orthodox. (Unfortunately, due to my upbringing and lifestyle I do not have a broad knowledge of Sfardi groups.) You may consider the above as me being arrogant, and maybe I am, but I am telling you about what I know from decades of study in various forms.
From my experience ALL chassidishe and yeshivishe groups, and MANY MOs think far more about Hashem than Lubavichers.
You and your compatriots fool yourselves into believing that you are thinking about Hashem because you have been inculcated with the belief that the Lubavicher rebbe is almost indistinguishable from Hashem (c”v), and that therefore everything associated with Lubavich is associated with Hashem.
Have you even noticed that no one anywhere else says anything other than “Kiddush Hashem”, yet Lubavichers so often say “Kiddush Lubavich”? If you don’t believe me google the phrase. I have never ever heard a Satmar chossid – and I know many – say “Kiddush Satmar”, or a yeshivisher say “Kiddush Lita”. Have you?
Lubavichers love telling mocking stories of people who say “Lekovod Shabbos” before eating like gluttons, when in reality they are only eating “Lekovod Habetten”. Personally I see the point they are making, but they are no different when it comes to Lubavich.
One should indeed eat lichvod Shabbos, but saying it once and then forgetting about it ruins everything, because the glutton has convinced himself that he is eating lesheim Shomayim, and this just leads to greater gluttony. Similarly, it would be fine for a Lubavicher to start off thinking that shitas Lubavich will lead him to avodas Hashem (Disclaimer: I believe that it won’t and that in 99% of cases it hasn’t for the last fifty years) but to then forget the avodas Hashem part and concentrate on Lubavich based on a prior intention/claim, is counterproductive as it leads to thinking about Hashem way less than the frum Jews you are talking about.
To Menachem Shmei
I don’t understand why you get so bent out of shape by my comments. If you think they’re the rantings of a lunatic you should ignore them. I never respond to personal attacks and when I was on VIN I was called every name in the book. As for your claim that your life revolves around the eibishter. You might want to check out your thread(question of an ignorant). Ypu spent about a month trying to convince me that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form, and I clearly answered that there’s no place in my life for AZ@arso from vs, via oh. good point. so someone was speaking and said from instead of via. so right away go accuse him of a”z. i would say the same thing then to someone who says plants grow from the rain, a”z!
basically go learn chassidus.
@qwerty First, “Do you believe that Hashem and the Rebbe are partners?” Second, “What, if anything, does Ain Od Milvado mean to you?”
i already answered the rebbe is a neshama diatzilus, learn perek bais tanya with the hagaah. hashem has no shutaf. the way i understand it is as explained in byom ashtai asur yom 5731. go learn it. ain od milvado means as explained all over chassidus not only there is no g-d besides hashem, not only no shutaf, but there is nothing that really exists 1 level is that its totally dependent on the g-dly chayus that creates it every moment, higher level is that chayus eloki is nothing compared to malchus diatzilus, even higher malchus is only a chitzoniusdike koach of hashem, in yecholes haatzmus the world dosent exist altogether.
this is what the whole chassidus is about. obviously you need to learn chassidus to understand anythng i wrote.To sechel83
To say that everything comes “from” the Rebbe means that he, and not Hashem, is the source. To say that everything comes via or through(same thing) means that it comes from Hashem but the Tzaddik influences it. They don’t mean the same thing, and yes to say “from” is AZ. I quoted a Chabad Rabbi who said Hashem and the Rebbe protect us. Do you agree with him that the Rebbe is G-d’s partner? One more thing, stop hiding behind quotes from Tanya and learn how to express your ideas.
You might want to check out your thread(question of an ignorant). Ypu spent about a month trying to convince me that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form
Point out ONE POST where I try convincing you of this, and I will leave YWNCR for good.
The line about “lekovod the boich” is a kotzker line. The kotzker rebbe heard a chossid say “lekovod shabbos,” before eating, and rhe rebbe said “likevod mayb boich” and ate, to teach a lesson about not fooling one’s self into thinking that they are on madregos that they aren’t holding by.
Other gedolim held “fake it till you make it” to a degree.
Mayn**
To Menachem Shmei
The issue of “god clothed in human form” was discussed in earnest on August 15,16(but it was mentioned at other times.) Sechel83 stated that in 1962 the Rebbe declared that he was “god clothed in human form” and since Rav Moshe didn’t protest we see that he accepted it. I responded that Rav Moshe most definitely never heard such a statement. Ultimately sechel83 backed down from his statement which led you to write on August 16th 10.01 PM that you don’t understand sechel’s retraction since the Rebbe clearly said that he’s “god clothed in human form” So there you have one posting where you endorse this idea. Don’t worry I’m not going to ask you to keep your word and leave the CR. I only wrote this to demonstrate my integrity. Dr. Berger wrote in his book that 8 prominent Chabad Rabbis stated that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form. He didn’t make things up. As emerged from your thread it’s common knowledge and generally accepted in Chabad that the Rebbe is god incarnate C”V.
sechel, this is what I wrote: “From and via are two different things, and there is a VAST difference in concept between the two in this area.”
And this is what you replied: “@arso from vs, via oh. good point. so someone was speaking and said from instead of via. so right away go accuse him of a”z. i would say the same thing then to someone who says plants grow from the rain, a”z!
basically go learn chassidus.”Great reply! I especially like the way you attack something I didn’t write. Makes it really hard for me to rebut. Very clever!
Avirah, thanks for the source of the “lekovod habetten” line. Regardless, it is something I have heard Lubavichers quote numerous times.
I only wrote this to demonstrate my integrity
Sorry Qwerty you failed to demonstrate this.
I didn’t try to convince you anything about the holiness of the Rebbe. I pointed out that you were misunderstanding sechel when you thought that he was retracting his opinion, and I pointed out that this must be a mainstream Chabad view since it is a quote from the Rebbe.
Here is my original post (brackets added now. Go back to the original for context):
“This is ridiculous. Sechel never denied about G-d enclothed in a body.
Why would you prove [that this is a mainstream Chabad view] from “eight senior rabbis” when Sechel himself just quoted it from the most senior Chabad rabbi of all – the Lubavitcher Rebbe!?
He denied your understanding of that statement, which is perfectly fine.”This does not constitute as “trying to convince me that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form” as you claimed.
If I believe that you don’t even understand what this statement means (as I’ve written many times) – then how would I try to convince you that it’s true!?
Sorry, try again. Waiting for a single post.
To Menachem Shmei
Categorically stating that all Lubavichets believe that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form constitutes trying to convince me of that view. If you feel otherwise we can agree to disagree.To the group
Yesterday Menachem Shmei said that the Eibishter is the center of his universe. Today he reaffirms that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form. It follows then that Shmei’s Eibishter is the Rebbe.
I think the rebbe tried to parse things. So there is the belief of zionisim and then there is the idea of supporting Israel and even more so not making peace with people bent on killing us.
The rebbe was very famous for giving a sicha after the yom kippur war when israel was a couple of hours away from Damsucus but stopped short of capturing it and accepted a ceasefire because of UN pressure. The rebbe said “der UN vet shrien si vsi velin zi shrein a bissel hiecher” (The UN will yell anyhow so now they will yell a little louder).
The rebbe was also very famously against Oslo or any pace deal. Contrast that to R Shach z’l who was pro Oslo. The rebbe was pro living in settlements too.
All In all the rebbe took a very anti Palestinian view. But he still held that fundamentally the state of Israel is a bad thing in ideology. Its kind of like now that its here even though we don’t agree with its principals, its still jews and we need to keep it safe via fighting and being anti peace with people who are ina cult bent on killing us no matter what. A fake peace. i wonder what he would hold today of the flag. The flag histrocially represented the ideals of the state which is bad. But nowadays its intended to represent a more general symbol representing the jewish people and its existence against the Palestinians and musilm enemies around the world who seek to destroy us. it isn’t really about the ideals of zionism any more. (Kind of post zionism). I suspect the reba would be torn about the flag now and i wouldn’t mock shluchim that used it. You can’t bring a proof form sichah in 1955.
Yesterday Menachem Shmei said
Qwerty, we already went through this topic at length in the past, no need to rehash it in this thread.
You claimed that I tried convincing you of something, and you haven’t been able to show me one post where I’ve done so. Don’t fall back on your classic rhetoric.
I’m still waiting for you to either find me a post where I tried convincing you, or retract what you said.
Chaim,
I agree with most of what you wrote, but I would still disagree about the flag.
The very issue with the flag was that zionist nationalism was being seen as a replacement for authentic Judaism. Our flag is Torah and mitzvos, not some symbol of a secular government.The fact that it’s seen as a “more general symbol representing the jewish people” is exactly what the Rebbe was afraid of. We already have 613 flags of Judaism (“מצוינים במצות”), no need to add secular ones to the bunch.
@menachem shmei,
During times like these we need some kind of public display that’s a symbol . What would you suggest we use? A tzivos Hashem flag ?Regarding ״עצמות בגוף״ if you’re familiar with חבד terminology עצמות doesn’t always mean Hashem himself many times it could refer to עצמות אור אין סוף. it’s אפיקרסות to explain that statement as referring to hashem himself as hashem is not בגדר גוף ח״ו.
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