Hydroxychloroquine

DMB – You make an assumption & then you ask a question on that assumption!?!

Yes

“even though it is working throughout the country ”

I haven’t found it to be working. That said I see the sickest of patients so I have a biased sample. the doctor in KJ is seeing the healthiest of patients (he is outpatient) so he too has a biased sample.

there are currently > 300,000 postive cases of Coronavirus in the US. There isnt enough HCQ for all of them. not to mention I took take care of pt with Lupus where we know it does help.

That said for a sick pateitn the benefit (possible survivial) outweighs the risk so might as well give it. For healthy patients, the vast majority, the benefit doesnt outweigh the risk. For more moderate patients is questionable, I’d err on the side of giving.

Ubiq:”I haven’t found it to be working.
That said for a sick patient the benefit (possible survival) outweighs the risk so might as well give it.”

Have you used it with the z-pack and zinc?

Possibly the hydroxychloroquine with the z pack and the zinc will work on the very sick patients too- we need the stats, the data.
Remember sightly or moderately sick people, some have been getting even sicker, has v sholom!

“Have you used it with the z-pack and zinc?”

Yep used it with everything can think of – (to be clear I’m usually not the one ordering it )

but again, I see the sickest patients (I’m a nephrologist I get called when multiple organs ie kidneys are shutting down) . so that has zero bearing on healthier patients. thats why we need studies

ubiq: “thats why we need studies”
The study is in progress, see above, and here below where we have the following:

From “COVID-19: More Great News” below the video is from Dr. Eric Berg DC:
“Dr. Vladimir Zelenko said that in 699 COVID-19 cases, there was a 100% success rate. He used hydroxychloroquine, z-pack, and zinc. He’s recommending to hit the virus hard and EARLY with this protocol.”

He’s recommending Early!100% success rate!
Who would wait around till later?

lowerourtuition11210 -“IN NYS the governor has issued an executive order that it only be dispensed in a hospital or inpatent setting to treat Covid-19 as the FDA had not approved it as a treatment for Covid-19.”

He should be impeached! At least make sure to vote him out of office for all the deaths that could be prevented.

Does it strike anyone as a little strange that he claims to have 100% success rate? I am unaware of any other medication in the history of modern medicine that worked 100% of the time.
As Ubiquitin pointed out Dr Zelenko’s has an outpatient clinic. The overwhelming majority of people who get sick with COVID-19 never need to go to the hospital and get better on their own after a few days/weeks. The fact that none of his patients got really sick (assuming you believe his numbers) still doesn’t prove that Hydroxychloroquine is a miracle drug.

Hydroxychloroquine was brought to the attention of Trump by a French fraudster who published a totally flawed study in a journal controlled by someone who works for him after a one day peer review. The flaws were so pronounced that any of my first year medical students would have found them. Hydroxychloroquine has known serious side effects, including blindness. Used with azithromycin it can cause your heart to stop. A small but properly designed study in China found no effect of hydroxychloroquine on COVID-19.

Basically there is no evidence that it works and it is known to be potentially dangerous. Any doctor who wants to use it needs to become a clinical trial site so that we can properly determine whether it works or not — there are a lot of such trials underway. Meanwhile, the patients who REALLY need this drug — patients with lupus or rheumatoid arthritis — can’t get it. Oh, and the sickest patients can’t take hydroxychloroquine because it is only available as an oral medication. Thus it is to be expected that patients who take it have better outcomes — they aren’t as sick when they start!

Trump is completely irresponsible in promoting a potentially dangerous and untested drug combination. His flunkie Peter Navarro does not understand how to read and critique a clinical research study. Rudy Giuliani has in the past made a sufficiently ignorant statement about healthcare that I use it to teach medical students about how one can misunderstand certain types of bias in observational data and his promotion of these unapproved drugs sadly gives me more material.

There are far more promising treatments being tested now.

The side effects of hydroxychloroquine are rather dangers for many people. When I was first diagnosed with Lupus my Dr and I discussed the med and I reviewed quite a bit of literature about the med and it’s side effects. For me the decision was easy, I just said no. Diabetics who are on medication can suffer life threatening drops in blood sugar.

Personally I feel there should be more research on this medication. Real studies with control groups. Are these studies possible under pandemic conditions? I don’t really think so. As pointed out above thread we’ve seen what can happen with quickly approved off label use of a medication. The consequences can be tragic.

To the Doctor above with all due respect you are making a terrible argument and may be responsible for more people DYING. Sorry for the harsh words, but it needs to be said.

Doctors are encouraging patients to do nothing, and then they end up in the hospital where no one can be on top of the doctors and high percentage of people never make out alive….

I personally have seen 7 patients all of whom were getting worse by the day and all of them tested positive for COVID-19 and all but one developed pneumonia… Unfortunately their misguided DOCTORS did not want to give them Hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin and Zinc, they kept telling them “just rest, drink plenty….” meanwhile all we’re getting worse. 3 needed up in the hospital including 2 in the ICU and one on a respirator.
When they got to the hospital they were given Hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin BUT unfortunately for 1 of them After 3 days in the hospital he ended up an a respirator, miraculously he recovered after 3 days on a respirator (the Doctor practically gave up), round the clock Tillim did the trick.

The other 4, we got them to Dr. Zelenko and other GOOD doctors who prescribe the medications and they started getting better .

One can always argue that it’s no proof, perhaps they would have (miraculously) gotten better anyhow.. Stupidest argument, because you can say it by any patient who gets better after taking medication (perhaps he would have gotten better)

It’s PURE EVIL not to treat ALL patientS with COVID-19 who are showing great weakness, especially if they develop pneumonia!!!!!

HONEST Doctors will look back and ask themselves why were we so STUPID and IGNORANT, When patient begged for Hydroxychloroquine???? The risks of getting harmed when taking it 5 days are close to ZERO! compare that the HIGH RISK of letting COVID-19 progress ….

Some DOCTORS are JUST STONE COLD

AND THE DEMOCRAT POLITICIANS ARE juSt plain EVIL!!!

Yseribus: As was later learned retrospectively (as much of COVID-19 is, since it isn’t well understood yet even by the best doctors and new medical information about the desease is learned daily), the vast majority of those with COVID symptoms indeed have the desease not are undiagnosed of it, due to a great shortage of test kits. Indeed, the official count of people with COVID vastly undercounts the real number, which is multiples of the official count.

Yseribus: I believe Dr. Zelenko tested those patients for the flu before treating.

We all know the heimishe communities have been hit hard, with many with somewhat unrecognized symptoms like losing their sense of smell. Negating his diagnosis because of lack of available tests is foolhardy.

He’s mainly only treating those that have at least one risk factor, or have difficulty breathing. And he’s NOT CLAIMING IT AS A CURE FOR ADVANCED CASES. His idea is to treat those at risk before their lungs become compromised, when the chances of reversal are much greater. Ironically, the experts here state that these patients would have recovered naturally. So why is the percentage of deaths so high in relatively healthy individuals, or those above 50?

And most risks associated with this medication are with LONG TERM USE not for those taking it for 5 or 10 days. Of course doctors have to do their due diligence before prescribing, as some patients are not ideal candidates. But knowing how dangerous COVID 19 is, we must weigh the potential benefit against the potential risk.

Most of the pros and cons of Hydroxychloroquine have already been discussed here, I will share my point of view. (for whatever that is worth).

a. Unfortunately, this has become political, when dealing with science or life and death politics should not play any role.

b. Everyone agrees that the data is not sufficient to support Hydroxychloroquine as an evidence-based treatment. (the reason why it is being used especially for in-hospital patients, is because of the known track record this medication has, and the rules slightly change when dealing with a pandemic).

c. The initial French study was very flawed, but the follow-up study showed remarkable improvements with most of the patients that were on Hydroxychloroquine, with a significantly reduced infection period.

d. The logic behind Hydroxychloroquine and Zinc is not that it reverses the infection, rather that it makes it more difficult for the virus to replicate and reproduce, giving the body a better chance at fighting the virus.

e. This is why if one were to go with Hydroxychloroquine as a treatment option, it makes sense to start it early on, not later on as none of the meds reverse anything.

f. Like everything in life, especially with medicine, there are potential side effects, some common and some not so common. Many medications have a potential side effect of prolonged the QTC, so if a patient already has this conduction abnormality, there is risk for them developing a potentially deadly arrhythmia. This can be quickly ruled out by obtaining an EKG. Yet some providers are prescribing Hydroxychloroquine without getting an EKG, especially if the patient has no known cardiac history.

g. All the sick should have a refuah shleima!

Ubiq: “Keep in mind the vast vast majority of those infected do just fine ”

The point is, that the fatalities come from the “majority” and emerge as minority mortality.
So the Dr. Vladimir Zelenko said that in 699 COVID-19 cases, there was a 100% success rate.

You can be sure he was treating people with some symptoms.

You cannot expect to cure asymptomless people nor do a study on them.

Curious does anyone know Dr. Zelenko’s screening procedure? How do we know there is no bias in his screening as to who to take on as a patient? That can make a huge difference. Did he turn away patients? If yes, why and who.

Dr. Zelenko said he had over 900 patients. Anyone know the number of them that actually had a confirmed COVID-19 diagnosis, not just a guess based on clinical presentation?

He said he treated with his cocktail over 300 patients who he classified as high risk. What exactly does he classify as high risk, did any of these high-risk patients have a positive test, how long did they have this, what type of symptoms did they have?

How fast does COVD-19 progress from the point when he would prescribe his cocktail till when they need to go to the ICU?

There are lots of questions and without careful controls, even the most well-meaning, can make mistakes.

I have not seen anyone recommend against taking this for people with breathing symptoms and if it helps, it is great. But this is unproven, despite Dr. Zelenko’s videos about this.

As to why the Governor limited prescribing this to some extent is because there will be a shortage affecting people who these drugs are proven to work on. Apparently, there can’t be such a major restrictions on prescribing this as Dr. Zelenko has managed to prescribe this to 300+ patients.

Has anyone been able to verify if Zalenko tested those patients for Covid 19? Someone said he tested his patients for the flu, which flu?

“Thousand have already taken Hydroxychloroquine for Corona and none of them had a heart attack. ”

The risk of HCQ isn’t a heart attack. A major risk is cardiac arythmias, an irregular heart ryhm that can be fatal. Many many covid 19 have this. Is this related to HCQ? Probably not ? To their underlying disease process? More likely but without data who knows.
Further more keep in mind HCQ is an immmunosupressent (that’s why it’s used for autoimmune diseases like lupus and RA) it is possible that it makes things worse.

“That’s why you’re a kidney doc and don’t know critical care.”

My medical education included ust as much about covid19 as the most advanced critical care program as the most advanced institution. Sure in secret graduade school where they teach secret supreme court cases they may have taghut it but not in most schools

Ubiq:”Say you give it to 1000 people who were healthy and were going to do well anyway.”

No, the Dr gave the med to people who were showing symptoms.

“No, the Dr gave the med to people who were showing symptoms.”

Yes, the vast vast majority of people with symptoms do well without HCQ.

Again, I’m not saying not to give it in all cases. but his “data” proves exactly nothing.

Amil:

He tested the patients with flu like symptoms with this year’s flu test to RULE OUT THE FLU. He did do COVID tests in the beginning, and a majority came back positive. Since tests are in short supply, I believe he now mainly diagnoses based on symptoms.

Remember, KJ was considered such a hot-spot by the negative media, that nearby town officials tried pressuring Cuomo to do a full lock-down there so that the virus doesn’t spread to their towns. (However, he also treats patients from other neighborhoods.) Sure there was some anti-Semitism behind it, but it’s undeniable that our Heimishe communities have been hit hard.

Ultimately it boils down to Dr. Zelenko’s credibility as a doctor. Although I can’t vouch for him personally (and he did make some off the bat comments in the beginning) he seems to have a solid reputation in 16 years of practice. And he sounds knowledgeable.

It’s worth noting that Dr. Zelenko is self-isolating due to his medical condition. This may mean he had more time for research, but also that he relies on his staff for hands-on work.

This is a terrible disease, there is so much that is not known and so much that is simply not adding up, the severe hypoxia that does not correlate with the clinical presentation the cardiac arrhythmias and much more. This is a horrible disease that is hurting a lot of people.