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ubiquitin:
If you must be so ubiquitous:
I am opposed to this law because of number 1. I think it was made in bad faith and out of a disrespect of religion.
I am opposed to this law because of number 2. Your response is inadequate, everyone with a brain knows the studies are junk science. See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/163444/Study-Casts-Doubt-On-Claims-That-Metzitzah-B%27Peh-Leads-to-Herpes-in-Infants.html
I am opposed to this law because of number 3. I think it is bad public policy to regulate religious rituals.
If it had been passed in good faith, then number 1 would fall. If it was passed with good science, then number 2 would fall. Number 3 would not fall unless it was a very extreme circumstance such as human sacrifice .
The practice of religion belong to the people of said faith. Jews have mesorah of doing things one way or another, some of it is law, and some of it custom. We have a right to practice it as we see fit so long we dont hurt another human being. For persons not belonging to certain religions, sects… to dictate what should be done or shouldnt based on what they think is law is a violation of basic constitutional rights.
If indeed they claim to be protecting babies then they need to provide proof of links between infected mohalim and infected babies.
It is hypocritical that the same liberal crowd that defends a nurse that stands idly by as an old woman collapses clearly dying takes up the battle cry of vnishmartem meod.
If you let them come dictate to you what your religion is or isnt and how it applies based on written text, the laws would change so often, you wouldnt know which religion you were originally practicing.
The Gemara talks about metzitzah for health reasons. The Gemara also mentions bathing the baby in warm water for health reasons. Poshu pshat is there is no difference among the two, and just like we no longer bathe the baby in warm water because we don’t believe it to necessarily be healthy for the baby, we shouldn’t have to do metzitzah either if we don’t believe it’s healthy for the baby.
Some poskim however claim, that for reasons I don’t understand, metzitzah has become part and parcel of the mitzvah while bathing has not, therefore metzitzah must be done even if it no longer has known health benefits.
My question is, to the best of my knowledge, no where does the Gemara or the early rishonim say that metzizah has to be done directly with the mouth. Metzitzah just means to suction out the blood. It was done then directly with the mouth because their keilim weren’t sophisticated enough. What is the source that when the Gemara says metzitzah it must be done directly with the mouth and that the suctioning cannot be done with a tube? From the health perspective, it seems that both would accomplish the same goal, so why aren’t both valid ways of fulfilling this detail?
It is hypocritical that the same liberal crowd that defends a nurse that stands idly by as an old woman collapses clearly dying takes up the battle cry of vnishmartem meod.
I’ll take this one up.
Lomdus: V’Nishmartem certainly doesn’t apply the same when dealing with Shev V’al Ta’ase. All of the end of life seforim agree on this.
S’vorah: We are much more concerned regarding the helpless who made no choice, and less concerned with those who purposefully check themselves into somewhere that will not revive them.
Boich: We are concerned about Yidden. How many Yiddishe children need to die or get permanently injured before you say “enough”? One? Five? Ten? Chazal were mesaken Gezairos even if there was a possibility of Sakana, like eating onions that were left overnight without the “stem”. MBP is certainly more risky than eating a day old onion. If some random old woman wants to die, who am I to stop her?
Pasuk:
???????????–????-?????????? ????????, ??????: ???????????, ??????? ?????????
When Avraham Avinu did his own Bris, he certainly did not do MBP. Perhaps he used a tube, and probably (IMHO) did not do it at all.
Do I have to bring more?
That being said, I believe the law is wrong and bad policy on the part of the city. Before they start regulating MBP, they should regulate much more dangerous activities like not vaccinating your children and homebirths.
In case anyone missed it (and popa’s link to it):
GAW:
Really? You’re attempting to prove from that passuk what is halachically required for a bris?
Methinks you’re being a bit ridiculous.
DY: From the article:
What do you think they would find if they did a study regarding eating onions that were left out overnight without the stem?
Besides, the issue brought by the article is the limitations inherent in the previous studies done, not the actual results. I would like to see the actual study before I would decide to reject the previous conclusions. Small and significantly limited is still too much in the view of many, myself (and many Gedolim) included.
Once again, I don’t think that is the point.
Really? You’re attempting to prove from that passuk what is halachically required for a bris?
Absolutely. Perhaps we should NOT use pesukim to learn halacha?
Perhaps we sould NOT use pesukim to learn halacha?
In a vaccuum? Absolutely not! (and you know that, so I’m surprised at you)
In case you’re going to be really stubborn about this, I’ll point out two things (there are more):
1) Those who require MBP also learned Chumash.
2) MBP doesn’t have to be performed by the mohel, it can be someone else.
Small and significantly limited is still too much in the view of many
You misread that. It’s the evidence which is small and significantly limited, not the amount of herpes cases caused by MBP, none of which were proven.
Small and significantly limited is still too much in the view of many, myself (and many Gedolim) included.
That is not an intelligent view. You cannot simply say “any danger is too much”, as I very finely argued above ad nauseum.
And no gadol ever has objected on these grounds. The gedolim who say not to do it are the ones who hold it isn’t halacha anyway. No gadol is telling the poskim who hold it is halacha that they should be mevatel daas to them for this reason.
And no, the rasha tendler is not a gadol. Blast that, he’s not even ???? ?????. (Hmm, can you be a gadol but not b’chlal amisecha? Was Acher a gadol? How about Yochanan Kohein Gadol? Is Kohen Gadol the same as Gadol?)
Onions
Onions? Vos epis onions? (for popa)
You misread that. It’s the evidence which is small and significantly limited, not the amount of herpes cases caused by MBP, none of which were proven.
That is why I want to see the study.
2) MBP doesn’t have to be performed by the mohel, it can be someone else.
Why? After all, if it is part of the Mitzva then it needs to be done by a Bar Hachei?
The gedolim who say not to do it are the ones who hold it isn’t halacha anyway.
Yup. And those who hold it is M’akev will not care what to government says, which is why we end up where we are. Two groups of Torah Yidden not understanding each other, and accusing each other of being betraying their religion and being unreasonable.
My point here was that MBP is (logically) more of a sakana than eating an onion that was left out overnight.
PBA, point one is semantics If you are opposed to THIS law only because of where it will lead then you are not opposed to THIS law.
Point 3 (as you explain it now) is part of point 2 since you agree (i assume) If it WAS dangerous then you would support regulating a religous ritual.
As to point #2, the studies are not relevant to me. Most Doctors view MBP as putting infants at risk. Anecdotaly the evidence against MBP is overwhelming speak to pediatricians even frum ones (I have) speak to residents both here and in Israel (I have) the number of frum boys who come in with infections (not just HSV) far outweighs the number of frum girls and the number of boys in general. Admittedly this is anectdotal and no reason to ban or limit Mbp.
The only thing I support is getting parents permission and informing them of possible risk.
Do you mind answering a question? Do you think a hired mohel should specifically ask parents if theyd like MBP done? (They dont ask about technical aspects of the bris, even halachic ones. For example the mohel wouldnt ask if he should do priah as part of the chituch or separately with his nail) Or should the mohel be allowed to decide on his own wether to do it or not?
Yup. And those who hold it is M’akev will not care what to government says, which is why we end up where we are. Two groups of Torah Yidden not understanding each other, and accusing each other of being betraying their religion and being unreasonable.
I only see one group doing the accusing and the other group doing the betraying. But yes, that is the correct diagnosis of the problem and its reason.
Believe me: My rebbeim have said for many years to use a tube. I wouldn’t do MBP for my kids (except for a time like now, when I would davka do it to show support, and davka without a consent form). I just support the right of those who think it is necessary.
The same way I support the right of Catholics to not violate their religion by providing contraceptives. (And I submitted comments to that effect to HHS, and not a form one either–I wrote mine myself.)
ubiquitous: I don’t agree with anything you said. I cannot make my position clearer, sorry. And I cannot answer your question because the two choices as phrased do not properly contrast each other. Your first choice was a personal decision, while your second choice was a societal decision.
Two groups of Torah Yidden not understanding each other, and accusing each other of being betraying their religion and being unreasonable.
This isn’t the case. The Gedolim who don’t hold MBP is required are fully behind the Gedolim who do hold it is required in this fight against the government and freie who want to regulate or ban it.
Ok PBA, lets remove choices and make a simple yes/no question:
Do you think a mohel should ask parents if theyd like MBP done?
Do you think a mohel should ask parents if theyd like MBP done?
So we are discussing the mohel’s personal ethical responsibility then.
Depends. If the mohel holds it is required min hadin, he should obviously not ask. If the mohel holds it is not required, then maybe he should.
Mostly, the parents should just ask him when they hire him. Unless they are idiots. And if they are idiots, then I don’t care anyway.
PBA: I don’t disagree with you. I do think though that the Rabbonim who Pasken (and Mohalim to do MBP) that MBP is required should take a hard look at the facts and realize the consequences of the P’sak, and what will happen in Shomaiym if they are responsible for killing Yiddishe Neshamos shelo K’Halacha. Being “Machmir” (if it is that) is nice, but not when it is “Asi Lidei Misah”. They had better be really sure that they are correct.
Do you think a mohel should ask parents if theyd like MBP done?
If he is a Mohel that does MBP, yes. If not, he should tell the parents that he does not do MBP. I’m for full disclosure.
And if they are idiots, then I don’t care anyway.
I do, because it is the child at risk, not the parent.
People arent idiots if they dont know the ins and outs of technical halacha that comes up a few times in a person’s life.
(How many people know that theres a machlokes regarding performing priah as part of the chituch? obviously this is but one example)
And besides I guess I do care about all people even idiots
What if the mohel holds it is required but he knows that the parents would not hold that eg they are not chasidish (and yes many many non-chasidim hire chasidish mohels)Do you think he should ask or just go ahead and do it?
Why? After all, if it is part of the Mitzva then it needs to be done by a Bar Hachei?
Who said anything about not being a bar hachei? You are assuming (I think) that Avraham Avinu didn’t do MBP because it’s a physical impossibility; even so, I am tayning, he could have had someone else (maybe Eliezer) do it.
PBA: Disagree. It doesn’t matter what the Mohel holds. The Mohel is just the father’s Shaliach. So for this he holds whatever the father holds. He has to do the Metzitzah how the father tells him to.
Sam: We can disagree about that. It’s a curious question.
DY: Modeh. I didn’t think anyone else could do the Mitzva, but realize you are correct that Avraham Avinu’s Eved is a Bar Chiyuva.
Rambam Milah 2:1
??????, ?????????? ??????: ?????????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ????????? ???????, ????????? ??????? ???? ?????.
Looking at the Rambam in 2:2-2:4, it wouldd seem that even though Priyah is Meakev, Metziza is not (as he just says “??????????? ??????”, not ” ????????? ??? ???”). Is there anyone who holds Metziza is an Ikuv in the Mitzva? Nafka Mina is exactly my point, do you need a Bar Chiyuva to do the Metziza or not?
I was just going to say that!
Also, ain shaliach l’dvar aveirah. I wonder how if one holds it’s assur, is that then negating the shlichus?
GAW: THe Sdei Chemed, I believe, is the only one who holds it’s actually M’akev. Then again, Rav Schachter points out that he was probably exaggerating the Chomer of it in order to fight the reform (as the Sdei Chemed nearby quotes the T’shuvah of the Chassam Sofer that one may exaggerate the importance of Mitzvos or Minhag that the Haskalah was trying to abolish).
How about the father doing MBP?
That was one eitza I heard from a mohel, but a rav said no, since you’re untrained you have no idea what you’re doing.
Gavra, to tell you the truth, I don’t really know what those who hold it’s a chiyuv hold; I suspect that it’s not literally an ikuv, it’s just an extremely important aspect, with more than just medical purposes attached to it.
SAM-why on earth would the chachomim tell us to do something dangerous (when takanah was first made) and regarding a previous comment its the modern fighting with the frum trying to justify all there (own) wrongs
the hock-
How about the father doing MBP?
sounds right
Ezer: Either Chazal were informed by their doctors that it’s a medical necessity or at that time it really was a medical necessity and saved far more babies than it possibly harmed. Nowadays, though, it’s not true that it’s a medical necessity.
The father doing it is reasonable, and it does not take any training (contra truthsharer’s rav).
But it doesn’t totally solve the problem.
See, something like 90% of people are infected with this virus. But it goes dormant and is not contagious except when you have active sores. So the father is just as likely to have the open sores.
I suppose the benefit is that the father will be more careful about it.
Nowadays, though, it’s not true that it’s a medical necessity.
You should say: It isn’t known to be a medical necessity. There are no “truths” in medicine, since doctors understand nothing. There is only what we currently think, and what we used to think. And one day, what we currently think will become what we used to think.
??”?
? J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
PBA: I hear. That’s the Tzitz Eliezer quoting the Ritva. But since we rely on our doctors for Pikuach Nefesh issues, we have to assume that they mostly know that they’re talking about. The fact that they’re inherently can’t be absolutely positive about anything is why it’s Muttar to do Metzitzah on Shabbos.
sam2-chazal were informed by there docters
they were the best doctors themselves
I sometimes tayna azoi:
I think the gemara says somewhere (you tell me where) that we only have to listen to doctors about external illnesses, but that they don’t know anything about internal illnesses.
I contrast that to today, where we generally do think they know what they are talking about–except about dermatology. Everyone is modeh in dermatology they are totally clueless and cannot diagnose or understand or heal anything. So it is the opposite!!
The teretz is that we only know they can’t fix skin conditions because we can see that it isn’t fixed. If we could see inside, we’d know that inside they are even worse!
Ezer: I said the word either for a reason. There are some who hold like you said. Those would have to say that it was a Refuah back then and nowadays it looks like it isn’t. Others (namely, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach) held differently.
I don’t at all understand why a mohel that has active sores must be doing brisin. This is a very easy to check and if only those without active sores would do brisin there wouldn’t be any problem. Frankly I would not want a mohel with this active sores performing MBP on my son, and there is absolutely no reason that we must insist that a mohel in this condition be allowed to do brisin.
And this is what the whole issue is about, the argument that its “impossible” for this virus to be transmitted through MBP, so therefore we don’t care what kind of condition the mohel is in. Why must we insist that its impossible for the virus to be transmitted and what do we gain from this.
And the fact is that it is possible for the virus to be transmitted through MBP.
It is common knowledge that people should not kiss a baby when they have active sores, so this certainly should apply to MBP.
Yitz: That isn’t how the virus works. I’ll quote from above.
See, something like 90% of people are infected with this virus. But it goes dormant and is not contagious except when you have active sores.
Is it possible that in the times of Chazal the Herpes virus was less prevalent in society? Why can’t MBP be healthy unless the mohel has Herpes?
PBA, you said: “If the mohel holds it is required min hadin, he should obviously not ask. If the mohel holds it is not required, then maybe he should. . . . And if they are idiots, then I don’t care anyway.”
What if the Mohel holds it’s required, yet is reasonably certain that the parents wouldn’t consent if they knew. Shouldn’t the Mohel recuse himself at that point? Perhaps mohelim should be breaking into homes to perform milah with MBP on children who otherwise wouldn’t receive it. After all, it’s a chiyuv.
IMHO, a Mohel who goes deliberately against the parents wishes and hurts the child deserves to be locked up for the sake of society. He’s a deliberate idiot, which is far worse than an uninformed idiot.
As far as scientific proof of incidence, all the studies are misleading. The question is whether MBP makes THIS CHILD more likely to get herpes. The answer is, obviously, yes. Next question, how much more likely? Answer: who knows? Any chance of knowing would depend on voluntary participation in an unbiased study. Good luck with that.
Lastly, I’m mostly with PBA on point 3. However, the scope of the reg here makes this gov interference with religion a little more palatable. No one is stopping anyone from doing anything they want to do, as long as they are informed of the potential human sacrifice.
What I don’t like is the dismissive attitude the government has shown for the importance of religion. What bothers me most is that the DOH recommends not to do it, as opposed to informing people of the risks of this important practice (to those that believe it as such).
Bottom line: the risk is real, but may not be as high as the government is saying, and genuine religion may say to do it anyway. The DOH, Savage, and the general public should respect the last part the most.
Joe -“This isn’t the case. The Gedolim who don’t hold MBP is required are fully behind the Gedolim who do hold it is required in this fight against the government and freie who want to regulate or ban it.”
Not all the Rabbonim -Rabbi Tendler is pushing the Gov. to do more. What I don’t understand is why aren’t these Rabbonim concerned about how to make MBP safe for e/o? They seem only to care about the Gov. regulating MBP. The Gov. got involved because noone was taking this issue seriously -“B’mokom Shein Ish etc.”
Not all the Rabbonim – Tendler is pushing the Gov. to do more.
He said gedolim. But Tendler is not even a rabbonim–he is a gadol’s son in law. A gadol who is certainly rolling in his grave to see the mesirah that his son in law is involved in.
PBA -“But it doesn’t totally solve the problem.
See, something like 90% of people are infected with this virus. But it goes dormant and is not contagious except when you have active sores. So the father is just as likely to have the open sores.”
Like I was saying people in the Frum community need education about this. You have posted on this topic a lot, but you don’t even know the basics. Around 60 -90% of the pop is infected with HSV 1 and it is Always contagious, esp. when there is a sore, but even when not.
Mr Savage shows his extreme ignorance about the place of Talmud in Halacha, but he does raise some very true, uncomfortable points.
I did respond (via Youtube comments), and he read my response in his 2nd discussion of MBP the next day (on Youtube). Thank you Mr Savage.
PBA -“He said gedolim. But Tendler is not even a rabbonim–he is a gadol’s son in law. A gadol who is certainly rolling in his grave to see the mesirah that his son in law is involved in.”
I don’t care that he said Gedolim. E/o thinks their Rov is a Godol. Also R’ Tendler might Not be your Rov or mine, but he is s/o’s Rov and he has the official qualifications to be a Rabbi. Just because you and me (in this case) don’t agree with him doesn’t give you the right to be Mevatel him.
Hi PBA, sorry to bother you but you havent answered my question Ill repose it here so you dont have to scroll up
Thanks
What if the mohel holds it is required but he knows that the parents would not hold that eg they are not chasidish (and yes many many non-chasidim hire chasidish mohels)Do you think he should ask or just go ahead and do it?
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