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lightitup
Like mother like daughter?
I have had similar experiences in shule by Megilla, but i must TOTALLY DISAGREE with what you did!! That woman definitely didn’t act appropiately BUT WHAT ARE YOU TEACHING YOUR DAUGHTER?? What type of chinuch is this? I once had an experience that I was with my mother A. H. she had a walker at the time . I asked a girl if she could get up and give my elderly mother her chair, her mother started yelling at me,” how dare yoiu ask my daughter for her chair, she came early for a seat.” i picked myself up and went to another shule!! What are we teaching our children???!!!
oomis – thank you for your comment about popa. I was surprised how people could think he was serious enough to answer him, but his deadpan is truly without a hitch. So often when I really want to say something I just wait long enough and you, bpt or eclipse always say it first!
a mamin: I understand your story, but what you did was also wrong. Kibud Av Vam requires YOU to give up YOUR chair. The other girl had no chiyuv of K’bud Aim, besides lefno savo tokum. True, the girl should have offered, but what are we teaching our children? That K’bud Av V’am requires to make OTHERS sacrifice for someone they do not know? You should have gotten up for your mother regardless whom is sitting next to you. Hopefully, if someone saw you standing they would have offered you a chair. But you need to set the example first.
anon1mOus:: You misunderstood, I didn’t have a seat either. I was going to stand I just was asking for a seat for my mother a.h. If my children were in such a situation and would react that way, I would be embarrased to be their mother!!
The OP made a follow up post stating her daughter didn’t actually sit on the ladies lap, but rather: “And she sat in the corner of the seat,not actually on her.”
Just pointing it out, since it seems to have been missed by most.
EM, thanks for enlightening us and helping us be you ?? ??? ????. Don’t eat yourself up over this. You sound like a good person who made a mistake, like most of us here. You can explain it to your daughter, and even maybe apologize to the woman if you know who she is. I’ll bet she’ll feel bad and apologize to you and you can all put it behind you.
PBA – “You just try pulling that on me.
I would have picked her up and thrown her down a staircase.”
This is Pure Kaas and it doesn’t sound like your joking. Almost all violence that occurs in this world is because they were provoked. Acc. to Torah and the law, this isn’t an excuse. Self-defense on physical violence is the only reason a person should get violent. There are ways to defend against bullying without overeacting. There are ways to get your point across without being a Lemichel!
Anger Management anyone?
Aries: you are far more over the top than I am.
Sorry popa, but although I think Aries is laying it on a bit strong I echo her sentiments (as shown before). the fact that any of you don’t recognize how out of line the behavior exhibited was is mind blowing in the frum world. As parents we struggle with all kinds of issues to try to raise our children to be mentchen. i am sure I am not the only mother who at times has had to behave very differently in front of her children than she would like to in order to show them the correct way to behave and not the way that feels good but you know is wrong. If we aren’t mechanech our children how can we expect them to be mentchen? Esther acted in heat of the moment and once megillah started it was too late to change but for anyone to defend what she did or see it in any positive light in the glare of 20/20 hindsight is just anti everything we expect frum jews to be. I don’t think coming down on Esther like a ton of bricks will help as it will just make her feel defensive, but to condone what was done is just wrong! to be honest, I have been is similar situations and i walked away, yes, I carped about it for a long time after to anyone who would listen (without names) but I walked away because sometimes you cannot teach people mentchlichkeit and if this woman was rude enough to refuse to move Esther was not going to change her.
I made my points earlier, and don’t need to repeat them.
Aries is way over the line.
Esther – “Where can one get this anger management from? Is it a class or do you have to see a therapist one on one?”
You definitely can go to a therapist, but they do have anger management classes. Relief Help is a frum org. that can guide you where to seek help.
and see my thread about chutzpa.
By the way Esther, if there wasn’t another seat, would you have let the woman stand, or would you have made your daughter stand up for her. After all your daughter was there first.
Aries: Esther admitted she’s done something wrong and feels bad about it. NOW WHAT??? She lost her temper but didn’t you lose it too just now?
Esther: You certainly don’t sound like a sick woman in need of therapy. Rabbi Zelig Pliskin’s book on Anger is really great.
You may think that I am over the top but what do you call putting your child on someone else’s lap? Is THAT not over the top? Have you ever done that? What would YOUR child feel like? Would they feel like you are sticking up for them or would they feel mortified? The same way that she put her child on the corner of that woman’s seat she could have placed her on the corner of her own seat or not embarrass her and moved over and allowed her to place herself on the seat. Or as stated before just switch seats to begin with and the child could stand up to see her father at any time. Why would you or anyone think that the child would have the same or more right than the adult just because she got there first? Does she deserve special treatment because her father was laining? Well my son-in-law lains twice at night and twice in the morning every year plus every shabbos and yom tov and even HE doesn’t get special treatment nor does he expect it.
OK, so I am older and of a different generation so does that mean what I was taught doesn’t apply any longer? What I taught my kids doesn’t apply any longer? The rules of derech eretz and respect your elders doesn’t apply any longer? What exactly did that woman do wrong? She wanted to sit on an empty seat that a young woman was holding for her child who was obviously much younger than the elder woman. What exactly was wrong with the woman expecting the younger woman to accommodate? Nothing. What exactly would it have cost Esther Malka to accomodate? Nothing. Why did this incident have to take place. No reason. What good came out of it? Nothing. What bad came out of it? Obviously bad feelings all the way around. What can we learn from this? You will have to figure that out individually for yourselves. This was NOT a good way to teach a 10 year old child to stick up for themselves. Next time you want to teach your daughter such a lesson it would be better off taught on the playground with children her own age.
Teen, no I am not angry, and I did not lose my temper. I am just answering and asking questions. I didn’t say anything about anger management. She asked how we would react and what we think, so I am responding. What is your issue, if we don’t agree we shouldn’t respond? I am as appalled at this incident as I was when another poster, I think it was “ofcourse” told of a time 20 years ago when she was pregnant and had to stand through the entire megillah laining because not one young girl or woman offered her their seat. Right is right and wrong is wrong and I just feel this was unacceptable behavior. Furthermore, we have to be vigilant about teaching our children to be respectful. There are so many young people who have no concept of respect.
What exactly was wrong with the woman expecting the younger woman to accommodate? Nothing.
See. This is why I cannot take your other points seriously.
Because you think that the older woman was actually in the right here.
So of course you think esther was wrong.
But that is crazy. You don’t have a right to go around bullying people just because by some accident of nature you happen to have been born earlier.
Their obligation of respect has nothing to do with you.
Please see my other thread. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chutzpa-is-not-a-%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%90%D7%93%D7%9D-%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95
I have to agree with popa – being right can be done in a quieter, less threatening tone. And I believe you don’t hear how angry you sound because you say as much, but it comes across very harsh to some of us listening. Which is not the same as saying we disagree with you, I just find the tone of these posts VERY intimidating.
Well maybe it is because I said I was appalled, or in the way you are reading it not in the way that I wrote it. Try reading it again without the defensive attitude. In addition, why do you say that the other woman was bullying her? Where did you get that because she said that you can’t save the seat? Maybe she felt Esther was being disrespectful and bullying her by saying she is saving the seat for a child.
I stand by what I said. The older woman WAS in the right and I will take it one step further. If your mother was the older woman and came home and told you that this is what happened to her what would you say? “I was in shul and told this young mother that I would like to sit down and she said she was saving the seat for her child. But the other empty seat was facing the wall, so I chose to sit down anyway and figured she would seat her child in the other seat. Would you believe she had the chutzpah to put her child on my lap? I couldn’t believe the nerve of this young woman, and in shul none the less”. What would you tell your mother that she was wrong or that the young woman should have moved over and tell her child to sit in the empty seat? Be honest here. And go even one step further, ask your RAV who was right and who was wrong. I would be very interested to hear what he says, seriously.
Fascinating.
You really believe that.
Would you even do it? If you were the older woman?
aries2756:
And go even one step further, ask your RAV who was right and who was wrong. I would be very interested to hear what he says, seriously.
You made a great suggestion. How about you ask your rav, and let us know what he says.
Or does this advice only pertain to others, not ourselves?
Also, sometimes, when we capitalize words, it seems as if we are screaming. It gives off a very aggressive tone.
sounds like both parties are wrong to me. if i was the old lady, i would have sat facing the wall (unless, there was some other reason why she couldn’t take that seat – she has a hearing problem and her rav said that hearing through a hearing aid would not be yotzeh, so she has to sit right next to men’s section to hear properly, and she was too embarrassed to explain to some woman she didn’t even know);)…
but if i was the mother, i would have been mevater and put my skinny daughter next to me or on my lap, and later tell her how proud i was of her for giving up seat to lady who obviously had something wrong with her, if she didn’t move when i told her that my daughter was sitting there.
popa – may not have to give in to bullies, but if one time thing, definitely is a mitzva to be mevater and not make a whole big deal and humiliate child and woman.
PBA, here is another little tidbit for you. When you are invited to a bris, the seats that are set up are also meant for the “Adults” and not for the kids who’s parents seat them leaving adults standing. Same goes for a kiddush in shul where parents have the chutzpah to seat their children and become oblivious to the adult invited guests who have no where to sit.
Although children are important and special too, they are NOT the first to be considered in these cases. They are young and have the koach and were-with-all to stand through it or sit on their own parents’ laps.
And just to satisfy your curiosity, yes, I would have had no problem asking Esther to have her daughter switch seats with me if I found the other seat too uncomfortable. As Esther said herself, her daughter is very petite and would have had no problem sitting in a seat facing the wall. Esther was being a bit stubborn which she herself admitted. It was as simple as just moving down a seat and there would have been no incident at all. WE women do it all the time in shul. It is NO big deal and that is why this whole story was so upsetting. Young women don’t usually have a makom kavuah but many older women do and WE usually respect that. Other than that, we are always moving around accommodating or just depending on who is there. So being stubborn about a seat is NOT the norm for women and I am sure that the older woman was a bit surprised by Esther’s response.
By the way PBA, is this how you raise your children? Is this what you would have done? My kids and grandkids would give up their seat for an older person even if it meant they would stand!
Aries,
I think its unfair to expect someone younger to move, solely because another seat is someway less desirable unless there is a reason the woman needed the seat. Estherhamalka has said that the seat was just as comfortable.
Did Estherhamalka react correctly? Eh, it was juvenile. But she shouldn’t have been placed in that situation in the first place.
Of course I would give up my seat to an elderly woman who needed it (even while pregnant). I did that the other day on the bus because an elderly man came on and the front seats were full. I was in a lot of pain from overexertion at my job and having painful braxton hicks contractions but he needed the seat more than me.
But if the seat next to me was available? He would have sat down on that one.
Wow, this is a really hot-button issue. I can try to understand your point EH, but I think you are wrong about one specific thing. Being older DOES sometimes give people a pass in regards to many things. Being very, very young ALSO gives some children a pass on their behavior some of the time, but one would hope their parents are teaching them better manners and menschlechkeit.
I think you were mistaken in making the mountain out of this story, when your daughter and you could have moved over one seat to accommodate an older woman. Instead, you showed your daughter how two women can bully each other. SHUL is not the place to prove you are right.
Binayeseirah answered you very well. And so did Aries.
I have to say I am very much surprised that on a forum that is constantly ragging on the lack of tznius as the cause of all the ills of the world, that so many of the posters here don’t seem to recognize that it is the lack of menschlechkeit is the main problem. Whether or not the older woman was right is not the issue. The issue is how EH reacted to her and worse, what she did with her daughter. And the fact that ANYONE here has defended what prompted that action, really shocks me. What do we get with an “I’ll show HER!” attitude? We are supposed to be better than that. If someone acts like a bulvan, there are only a few circumstances where one should not be mevater. Acting out in front of one’s child is not the best way to solve a problem. And coming to shul an hour and half early on Shabbos, in order to get a seat for something going on AFTER Shabbos, is also not 100% the right thing to do, especially if you are using that as the excuse that the seat was saved for the child who was sitting there for that length of time prior to the leining.
In any case, I can understand EH feeling the way she did, but I think the situation could have been handled differently, and in this particular case, given there was another space for her daughter to sit, it would have been better in this instance not to make a spectacle in shul.
Aries, GAMARNU. Esther admitted that she was wrong. Were you ever big enough to do that? Not in the CR, IIRC. Right now you sound to us more wrong than Esther. WILL YOU LEAVE HER ALONE?!
Esther, you said, “Older people demand respect,but that respect has to be EARNED.” Not true. They “earned” their respect by virtue of ???? ???? ????, ????? ??? ???, much like parents, whether you like them or not. An elder who earned his respect, i. e. a talmid chochom, must be doubly respected.
aries2756: I agree with Esthermalka how she handled it. In your case of a bris or a kiddush, if the invitation said no kids, then all the seats belong to adults. However, as we know, this is not the case and kids are invited to a bris and kiddush. You are also mixing apples with oranges. In a case where NO SEATS are available, yes, I all cases the parent should have their kids stand up. However, in this case of the megillah in shul, there were clearly other seats available and there is no chiyuv for the kid to stand up. Just because an adult tells you something, does not mean you need to listen. If you were served a better peace of kugel, would you tell your son to give it to another adult if there were plenty of other kugel left?? Of course not. Just because the seat was not exactly how the adult wanted it, does not allow her to overtake someone else’s seat. it is unfortunate you view children as mere object that have no rights or feelings. maybe this is why poeple go off the derech. It is when they view adults as being inconsiderate and selfish, it might turn them off. If we want to teach midos and derech eretz, the ADULTS need to display it first, especially the older adults. Adam Moed L’olam. A person is ALWAYS responsible for their actions, even if they are old and disgruntled.
Okay, one more word out of you kids and you’re both grounded for the day. Seriously, I think that’s enough cat fighting for one day.
msseeker, as long as EH responds to me, I will reply, thank you very much. And yes, although that is very rude of you and uncalled for, for your information I have admitted that I was wrong when I was and I have apologized for it, have you and because you have mentioned it and brought it up has Esther (sorry Esther this question is not really directed to you or about you it is an issue with msseeker)?
anon1m0us, kids are NOT invited to a bris, a bris is announced and friends are informed. People choose to bring their kids. The tables are set up for adults and there might be a kids table set up with cereals, etc. When was the last time you made a bris? And YOU are mixing apples and oranges when you speak about taking kugel from a child and giving it to an adult. It is NOT shayach.
Furthermore, a member of a shul certainly has more of a right to a seat than a non-member and certainly an adult who pays membership fees, more than a child if you want to discuss chiyuvim. Esther still has not answered whether or not she indeed is a member of that shul.
Esther, we have a huge difference of opinion here. Maybe because we see things differently or maybe because we have an age gap, or maybe because we were raised differently in different generations. I have no issue with you personally we just don’t see eye to eye and I don’t ever wish to have an issue with you personally. I refuse to allow others to make this a personal issue between us. I hope we are at least on the same page about this.
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