How we relate to Chillonim vs Neturei Karta

The hilonim are not “self hating”. They love being secular western persons of Jewish descent. It is the hareidim that they hate. If the “moderate” (“modern”) orthodox can not convince the hilonim to end their current “war” against hareidim, both in America and Israel, then it more or less proves that the “fanatic” hareidim (e.g. Neturei Karta) have been right all along.

mw13- so beautifully said! I think we can always prod at ways people are doing things the wrong way. At the end of the day, everyone is quite opinionated and wants whats best for Hashem, and very often what is best for one group isn’t best for the other and therefore they focus on the disagreement and then the world hears about it. This is where it becomes a chilul Hashem. If only we were more judgmental of ourselves and less judgmental of others..the world would be a much better place!

The reason is obvious. Chilonim are for the most part tinokos shenishbu. They didn’t have a good experience or any experience with Torah. They are less responsible because it is the situation that they were put into. In fact, it’s probably more our fault then theirs for not succesfully bringing them closer to G-d.

But Neturei Karta should know better. They are frum in most respects and yet still act the way they do. and in the name of the Torah. They are the ultimate chilul Hashem and the fact that they are otherwise “frum” is not a redeeming factor. A person who is learned and is still mechalel Shabbos bemeizid is on a whole different level than one who is not frum at all. There is a higher standard for the frum, and they fall much farther when they don’t meet those standards.

Sam, how are they endangering any lives by meeting him? They aren’t. They are a bunch of clowns but it is nothing more than getting their faces in the newspapers – which is their goal. They don’t accomplish anything and they don’t hurt anyone. They just make themselves out as foolish people. What they do is dumb but hurts no one.

The people that get all antsy and uptight and start going bonkers every time these guys do their shtick are essentially helping them accomplish their goal. They just want the attention. Ignore them and don’t worry about them. What they do doesn’t cause people to get killed; that is taking them too seriously.

And a VERY LITTLE KNOWN fact. A person can be a “mentch”, good with his neighbors, “gemutlich” and still be a rasha.

Although I mostly agree with the OP there are some differences between the average chiloni and a NK. First, the NK are responsible for a terrible chillul hashem and there is nothing worse a person can do. But that is not the main difference. The main one is that the NK do things that do not even serve their own purpose but do so only lehachis – to inflame the passions of others religious Jews. Burning a flag (or a Koran) never helped anyone and is done only to instigate. See, e.g., Pastor Terry Jones. Just as we have felt repulsed by Pastor Jones we feel repulsed by NK.

And this is the major difference between Satmar and NK in the eyes of the hamon am. No one feels negatively towards Satmar the same way they do towards NK even though they share almost identical ideologies towards Zionism. But Satmar does not engage in chillul hashem and does not do things solely to instigate. They have a mehalich they truly believe in and they act responsibly towards pushing their mehalich. You can disagree but you cannot feel negatively towards that.

And I think most American Chareidi Jews would feel negatively towards a chiloni who purposefully acts in a way to instigate against Torah. We do not hate the neighbor who doesn’t know any better and drives a car on shabbos but the neighbor who purposefully drives his car into charedi neighborhoods honking his horn down bar ilan street on shabbos only to instigate the frum are viewed negatively.

I belive even the Satmar threw out the NK from Williamsburg after the Ahmadinejad meeting. They are certainly not Zionists,but they do know what the Nazis did to the Satmar Rebbe. Meeting with Holocaust Deniers doesnt go over very well with the Satmars

There is a vast difference between being anti-Zionist and actively giving aid and comfort to an avowed enemy of, not only the State of Israel, but of all Jews everywhere. Could anyone on this blog imagine the late Satmar Rav, Rav Yoylish, who was known for his strongly anti-Zionist views, visiting and giving support to Ahmedinijad?

Also, it is a grave mistake to believe that Chilonim as a group, hate Chareidim. the recent survey of attitudes in Israel indicates that the overwhelming majority of Chilonim simply don’t care one way or the other about Chareidim. The so called “War against Torah” is a fabrication of militant Chareidi factions who use it to recruit and energize their followers in order to maintain the Government benefits. All of the grievances of the Chareidi community could be dealt with by dialog, discussion and negotiation with the Government and the Hamon Am but, apparently the Chareidi community and leadership isn’t really interested in getting what they want from the rest of the Country. They are more interested in maintaining what amounts to a state of war with the Government and People of Israel as a means of maintaining control of their own flock and gullible fellow travelers.

@zahavasdad

Actually Satmar engages in some Holocaust Denial…most notably how the Rebbe was saved and by whom and what their affiliation was.

mw13: Giving legitimacy to haters of Jews by letting them say, “see, even your own members think you’re evil” helps bolster anti-Semites’ claims and attitudes, which leads to more people having the confidence and willingness to do things like Kansas City.

Also, it gives more ammo to people who hate the State of Israel, which can lead to more public opinion against Israel which makes it easier for the UN to pass resolutions against Israel. Which, whether you think the State is a good thing or a horrible evil, does endanger Jewish lives.

renters (Joseph): I’m not saying these are direct causes. Or that no bad things would happen to Jews without them. But yes, a world with an atmosphere more sympathetic to anti-Semites and terrorists is one that is more dangerous for a Jew to live in. (And yes, the average American thinks Kansas City was an awful thing; but if fewer people thought it was proper then there would be fewer attacks like that.)

Mw13: the stuff nk does is not just in your face it is downright obscene. They are our version of the Westboro church. That being said I originally said I mostly agreed with you because I agree that the level of hatred shown to what really are a bunch of clowns is disproportionate.

renters: No. Everything is in context. If they met with him to plead for mercy on behalf of Iranian Jews it wouldn’t upset people. It’s them going to him to tell the world, “See, we hate Israel just like this Holocaust-denying anti-Semite” that gives people major pause.

If a Chiloni would drive to the house of Rav Shteinman on the First day of Pesach and ate a ham and Cheese sandwich THEN they would be a Rasha and comparable to NK’s , otherwise they are Tinok Shenesba

You asked if I thought they were Rashaim and I answered you that unless they deliberatly broke the law and were in your face about it (as opposed to ignorance) I said no.

I can tell you the following, If someone grew up non-religious and went to public and at some point in their life came into contact with religious people and the religious person wished to maybe Mekarev them. Calling them a Rasha is not the way to do it.

NK is in your face according to many.

There is a differnce be non-zionist and anti-zionist and there is a difference between non-religous and anti-religious

mw13,

I think it is possible that you are seeing a contradiction where none exists due to a faulty premise that every person or every situation deserves the same response. As we learned at the seder, four different sons, four different responses.

he extols the sensitivity that he saw them express towards others. He goes on at length about how it is thanks to these brothers and sisters of ours that Hashem is oheiv es amo yisroel, loves the Jewish People.

Are you sure that the author’s intent was to heap praise on the irreligious, or rather to praise b’nei Yisroel that even the ones distant from Torah and mitzvos display upstanding middos?

he deals with the subject of the Neturei Kartanics who went to meet with Ahmadinejad.

Here the norm is to denounce and deplore their actions, and to demonize them as “self-hating Jews”, even “traitors to Hashem and His Torah”.

Ahmadinejad materially supports those who kill Jews. He mocks and insults Jews, including our martyrs, in front of the world. NK seemingly did not go there to seek mercy for their bretheren. They embraced him, and expressed support for his “cause” against the state of Israel. They are not simply anti-Zionist, you can be anti-Zionist without supporting the enemies of the Jewish people. NK on the other hand displays the flag of the PLO, an organization with the blood of Jews on its hands. How can we not have a strong reaction to that?

Hypothetically, should our ancestors in Egypt have reacted the same to a Jew who r”l assimilated into Egyptian culture verses a Jew who outwardly maintained the trappings of Judaism, but who declared that the Jews deserved their slavery and patted the Egyptian soldiers on their backs as they drowned Jewish babies in the hopes of currying favor with the Egyptian government?

We do not tell over stories of the good that they do; we do not seem to care.

Do you have any knowledge of good that they do?

You must live on a different planet from me. Seculars open a parking lot on Shabbos in Yerushalayim? Denounced, protested. Conservative movement permits driving on Shabbos? Denounced, protested.

Why do we tend to focus on the 10% of the weekly routine of an otherwise irreligious Jew that is in accordance with the Halacha, and focus on the 10% of the time a NKnic spends doing things that we disagree with?

I disagree with your assertion that we ignore the 90% with regard to an irreligious Jew. I have heard no “pintele yid” stories that do this – they usually end with the irreligious Jew becoming frum. Also, do you really want to go down the path of criticizing a focus on 10% bad when 90% is ok? If someone commits adultry only 10% of the time, should we really praise him for his commitment to put on tefillin every day?

i think someone brought up non religious has more nigius subconscious reasons for not becoming frum (agreeing that the frum way is correct) than an NK weirdo who knows the other tzad, knows hes a yuchid that the whole jewish world is screaming at, and nonetheless thinks hes right to take such extreme measures

mw13,

why do we focus on praising the few actions of the irreligious that we support, and on deploring the few actions of the NK that condemn

The intent behind an action plays a big role in how others respond to it. If someone with their back turned towards me was gesticulating wildly in conversation and accidentally struck my face with his hand, I would be upset by his carelessness, but would probably not have my feelings hurt much. If the same person looked hatefully at me and intentionally struck me on the face, however, even though the physical impact of the act was the same as the first case, I would feel much more hurt and anger.

Most people do not presume that the typical irreligious Jew is intentionally committing aveiras in order to harm the Jewish people. When NKs are seen spitting on other Jews, however, or flying the PLO flag, visiting Ahmadinejad or paying homage to Yasir Arafat, most people do think they are exhibiting active malice towards their brethren.

I’m pretty sure they do not believe that Jews should be killed or deserve to be killed.

If someone in Wyoming displays a swastika, I think it’s reasonable to believe that he agrees with the atrocities committed by the Nazis. Likewise, if someone embraces “erased in a single storm” and “go back to Germany” Ahmadinejad and attends Iran’s conference on Holocaust denial, what are we to make of that?

although even then, when’s the last time you heard somebody call the irreligious “self-hating Jews”, etc?

It’s actually very common to hear an irreligious Jew who, for example, changes his name to make it sound less Jewish, or openly supports the Arab positions, or otherwise acts embarrassed to be associated with Jews called a “self-hating” Jew. I heard that term used long before I became frum myself or heard of the NK.

I just pointed out that to focus on the minority of good deeds of one group and the minority of bad deeds of another is rather hypocritical.

Failure to understand another’s position does not make it hypocrisy.

ok so lets stop calling it “tinok shenishba”. what i said is a valid chiluk betwixt the two.

A tinok shenishba is one who was brought up in a certain way, and doesn’t know any better.

Although they were brought up that way they do know better and shud do otherwise. Thats why theyre retarded. Unlike someone unfrum where it is more understandable why hes not frum

The reason why I relate to (even non-tinok shenishba) chilonim more than NK, is because I have been tempted to become a chiloni, and I have never been tempted to become an NK. Thus, to me, the chiloni seems far more rational and relatable.

mw13: Your “right to be [] judgmental” is based on your subjective sense of right and wrong. So yes, I guess. But to me, my right to be judgmental will lump you into the same hogwash that is NK.