How tznius are todays sheitels?

while were at it, I don’t get it this morning I say a lady with a shiny tichel, isn’t the poiint so that youre not attracted

<joking>

The Ervat Davar is the hair.

Therefore, if a lady shaves, she need not cover her head.

</joking>

I think all of you complaining about other people spending too much money on sheitels have a little too much time on your hands. Yes, I think spending $5,000 dollars ona sheitel is a tremendous waste of money – I’ve been married almost 14 years and I haven’t spent that much money on all the sheitels I’ve bought! But, 1) it’s none of my business, the best I can do is try to keep my own priorities in order and teach my children good values – I really don’t care how other people choose to spend their money (unless they’re also getting tuition breaks, but that’s a whole other topic!), and 2) you’re missing the point of a woman covering her hair. It’s not to look unattractive, it’s because once a woman gets married, her hair is something private and special,covered by the halachos of tznius and reserved only for her husband – just like the rest of her body. Nowhere does it say that a woman should not be attractive. While there is a distinct difference between being attractive and attracting when making choices in tznius, the cost of the sheitel is not the issue.

As for the fact that our grandmothers in Europe wore shmatas on their heads, that’s really irrelevant. They also had no plumbing or electricity. Advances in technology can be used to improve our lives and enhance Yiddishkeit, or our appreciation of it.

Again, I’m not advocating buying a ridiculously expensive sheitel, I’m just saying that some of the reasons by people against it seems to be covering something else (pun slightly intended).

chayav, amuligiyuren in the alter heim a fat woman was the height of beauty. do you really want to go back there? face it, times have changed, and while i don’t advocate wearing super long trashy shaitels, looking nice in an eidel way is not a bad thing. a woman would probably attract more attention looking like garbage.

popa,

Many great rabbis have objected to wigs. You can read their responsa.

Chayav-

Actually, there was a long period in “der alter heim” where most women did NOT cover their hair…

mbachur, MDG –

Isn’t the point so that you’re not attracted?

The Ervat Davar is the hair.

There is an unrelated Gemara (Kesubos 72a) which states that a woman is not allowed to go out with an uncovered head, and brings a pasuk, ???? ?? ??? ????, which from the context of the passage in the Torah it is clear that it was done in order to denigrate the woman who is a sotah, so we learn from there that for a woman not to wear a covering on her head when she goes out is derogatory to her.

Note that the Gemara in Kesubos which makes the derivation from sotah never once mentions an obligation to cover the hair, rather to cover the head.

Also, note that the Gemara in Berachos which is attempting to prove that the hair of a woman arouses a man, brings support from a pasuk in Shir Hashirim, and not from a pasuk in the Torah, which would have been a much better proof. If the reason a woman must cover her hair is because it is attractive to men, then we have a source from the Torah itself, i.e. ???? ?? ??? ????.

There is more to say, but for now suffice it to say I think it is clear from these and other points that the two Gemaras are not related, at least not on the surface level.

The Ritva at the end of Kiddushin says that the halacha follows this Gemara. However, he says that one should not rely on it if he is not a ???? ???? ????? ?????.

If anyone actually read all of this, I hope you appreciated it. Thank you and have a good Shabbos.

asyyeger electricity has nothing to do with this electricity has enhanced our lives without damaging yiddishkeit but sheitels have greatly ruined our spirituality for many reasons

1)women have to outdo each other causing sinas chinum,kinah

2)It takes away the whole point of covering their hair

brooklyn yenta-

a woman would probably attract more attention looking like garbage.

WHAT??? ARE U SAYING LADIES THAT LOOK LIKE GARBAGE ARE ATTRACTIVE???? I DONT KNOW WHERE U HAVE BEEN

Rabbiofberlin, It is mefurash in the Gemora that at least a certain degree of hair-covering is De’Oraysa,eventhough it is a lav davka a lav or an ase. Something could be min’HaTorah without being a full-fledged lav or an ase. Stop dreing up the Halocha because of your misguided hashkofos.

how much are those human hair wigs for men?

I cannot respond to “feelings’ (yiddishemishpacha). If you feel that a sheitel is not for you, don’t wear it. Others may-if so desired- rely upon virtually all posking that a sheitel is allowed. BTW- “peah nochris” (a sheitel) goes back to gemoro’s times….look it up.

mdd- actually, yes, if I would see someone do something that”looks” like an aveirah, I would 1)first, try to be dan lekaf zechus,like maybe he is driving his car to hospital for pikuach nefesh. 2)if this is not the case, then I would try explaining to him/her that it is wrong and 3) if neither of these is the case, well, maybe there is a way to be mattir this-like ‘cholov’stam’ -the subject of another thread.

mdd-the only think that I know is a “midoraisa” and neither lav or ashe is “halacha lemoshe misinai’ (like certain aspects of tefillin). But the appelation ‘das moshe’ is very specific only to this matter of a woman’s hair. As I said, I don’t know what it means. “iytai’ has showm you many examples where “deoraisa” in the gemoro doesnt’ necessarily mean min hatorah.

yiddishemishpacha, isnt it up to our Gedolim to pasken whether women should or should not continue wearing Sheitels? I havent heard one American Rov being negative and stipulating limits in regard to Sheitels. Are they unaware of what you are aware of? Are their wives not discussing it with them? Are they never walking on the street?

apushatayid- who says im not a posek??

yiddishemishpacha- does your whole family gather around the computer and vote on what to post?? its probably hard with a few people to decide.

mdd,

If you read Rav Broyde’s essay you will find that there are more opinions that say that haircovering is d’rabbanon, and even a few (three, to be precise) that say it is simply a minhag.

Also, wigs seem to have disppeared from the Jewish world for a thousand years. They returned in early modern times in imitation of European gentiles.

ofcourse,

I know of at least one American rabbi who forbade wigs: Rabbi Isaac S. Hurewitz, in his Yad ha-Levi.

A woman’s body (and a man’s too, for that matter) are erva. But when they are clothed, they are not. Should both men and women not wear attractive clothing, nice suits, pretty dresses? The store sin Boro Park are extremely pricey. I can’t afford to shop there (and it doesn’t bother me, as I am not label-conscious). But maybe it should be assur to wear nice clothing, too, because it covers the reva of the body, just as the pretty shaitel covers the erva of a married woman’s (and ONLY a married woman’s) hair.

If the purpose of the hair covering is to make her look less attractive to all men but her own husband, then all the people arguing about the fancy sheitlach would be correct. But if the purpose of covering the hair, is the same as the purpose of wearing a dress or a suit, which is to cover up the erva of the body, then it should not matter to anyone what the sheitel looks like. It’s sole purpose is to provide a cover for something which may only be seen by her own husband (or other women). We amke many assumptions about hair covering, but what if the only reason is because when a woman gets married the status of her hair changes? Period.

Charliehall, Rabbi Broyde is a Modern Orthodox Rabbi. I do not accept his count-down of the shitos without seeing at how he arrived at his conclusions inside. Again, the Gemora in Kesubos 72 is clear that the ikar hair-covering is min’Ha’Torah. Shitos claiming otherwise would be hard-pressed to explain the Gemora. The opinion that it is a minhag sounds extremely shvere, if it even exists, and is not the result of somebody’s extremely shvere interpritations. And if you start going for far-off shitos, I know of a teshuva from a Hungarian (pashtus, Chassidishe) Ruv who held that a lady who does not cover her hair is misosa b’yad kol adam.

And if it were de’rabbonon(eventhough, who told you that we go with those shvere shitos), so what?? De’Rabbonon does not mean “mutar”.

And again, what are these MO ma’asos? Going after minority opinions or da’as yehids., including very shvere ones. Or dreing up even those minority opinions or da’as yehids(like it happens in some cases)?

chayav:

attracting attention is not always in a pretty way. a person can attract attention by acting ridiculous, or in this case, looking ridiculous.

Mdd, Rabbi Broyde’s essay is about thirty something pages, so you can see all his sources and reasoning inside. I am not saying you or I have to agree, but nevertheless, the way of milchamsa shel Torah is only thorugh rayos and sevaros, not labels and namecalling. Rabbi Broyde did no worse than any other shtickel Torah on any random topic. Feel free to shlug him up with your own rayos and sevaros.

As far as someone’s questions about Rav Moshe who is the posek of the USA, not Rav Elyashiv, as great as he is, Rav Moshe writes the following in a Tshuva:

He tells a Rov that he has no right to forbid his wife from wearing a sheitel, even if it looks exactly like human hair and one can’t tell the difference. He says if one would forbid it because of maris ayin, he would have to forbid men from shaving, as well, since one might think he shaved with a blade. So there is no maris ayin in these types of cases.

mdd,

You speak of Modern Orthodox as if there is something wrong with it.

And if you think that Rav Broyde is mispresenting the sources, why don’t you publish an article that lists the sources that he either failed to include in his analysis or misinterpreted.

And regarding the opinions that say that haircovering is d’rabbanan or mutar (only three of the latter AFAIK), you are certainly permitted to write an article that points out how they are in error.

I’m not a posek, not even a talmid chacham. But I object to writing real halachic opinions by distinguished orthodox rabbis out of our mesorah even if most pasken otherwise. And in the case of haircovering being d’oraita or d’rabbanan, the burden is on you in disagreeing with Rav Broyde to prove that he has erred in his survey of the sources. Ad hominem attacks like “MO shtick” are not convincing. A lot of rishonim do not agree with you regarding haircovering being d’oraita.

I kind of do think there is something wrong with modern orthodoxy.

It seems to me to be infected by the very things that mdd accuses. I am disturbed when I see people relying on rishonim that have not been relied on for hundreds of years. That is not how we do it. We follow our mesorah, as it has developed. We don’t do new things.

I really don’t care whether something is d’oraisah or d’rabanan, or whether a strict reading of the Rambam allows or prohibits it. I care about what frum jews, particularly my personal rebbeim and their rebbeim, have been doing last year, the year before, and the hundreds of years before.

I am far more convinced by pointing to a posek from 100 years ago, than 1000 years ago.

BrooKklyn yenta its true that u can also get attention by doing somwthing weird but usually a lady that is wearing a shmata on her head although she will get attention nobody will be attracted. Hwvr someone who is wearing an oustantetous shaitel wiL get attention and will be attractive.

“I care about what frum jews, particularly my personal rebbeim and their rebbeim, have been doing last year, the year before, and the hundreds of years before.

I am far more convinced by pointing to a posek from 100 years ago, than 1000 years ago. “

Well if you really want to go there, a century ago frum women in much of the world were NOT covering their hair. And there are three poskim within the past 100 years who said that was mutar.

“That is not how we do it. We follow our mesorah, as it has developed. We don’t do new things.”

No, it IS how we do it. Sometimes we DO do new things. Jewish women had not worn wigs for a thousand years when they started doing it again in early modern times. Most poskim said it was ok. And there are a lot of innovations in other areas with no precedent.

“I really don’t care whether something is d’oraisah or d’rabanan, or whether a strict reading of the Rambam allows or prohibits it.”

The more I read this the more stunned I am. We DO care whether something is d’oraita or d’rabanan, and we DO care what Rambam says about just about everything.