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ZD, I agree with everything you are saying. But if it’s meant to be a response/argument to my posts, nothing you wrote contradicts or is a response to my points.
Iacisrmma, I am sure you mean well, but you don’t realize how harmful your words can potentially be to JA.
You are right that this is not the best place to ask for advice, but apparently, it is her best or only option right now. Kol hakavod that she is seeking advice. The best thing that we can do for her is to offer her sympathy.
ZD – in addition to everything else, I suspect that JA is not in one of the more typical schools in Lakewood. There is a range of schools in Lakewood, and I think she may be in one of the ones whose raison d’etre IS to be more stringent than the others.
I think a parent who was sending her kids to the most stringent BY in Yerushalayim once told me that the school explained why they have to be so strict. Since they are considered to be the strictest school, if they loosen their standards (and allow the girls to just follow halacha), the other schools will become even looser (below halacha).
You don’t have to agree with this approach. But then don’t send there. That is why there is a variety of schools – because there are a variety of girls with different needs.
In an out-of-town community with one community school, it is very different. Since everyone has to go to the same school, the school has to be more flexible.
JA – I just spoke to someone from Regesh and it looks like progress is being made, B”EH. Will be in touch when I have more info, b”n.
I actually was replying to those who said for her to “Grow UP” or called her out for wanting to be rebellious.
And my opinion has nothing to do with taking this teens side, it has to do with being realistic. If an atmosphere is created where someone resents yiddishkeit, that is a receipe for OTD. Pick your battles wisely, Battling everything is a losing proposition
“I actually was replying to those who said for her to “Grow UP” or called her out for wanting to be rebellious.”
I’m so sorry; I thought you were responding to me. In that case, I agree 100%! Shkoyach for sticking up for her!
zd: “Pick your battles wisely, Battling everything is a losing proposition”.
Does that go for the parents or the teen?
That is a differnece between us. You think if I let the teen win, I am surrendering. I look at it very differently. Should I battle over a pair of shoes that covers the ankles or should I battle over a blouse that does not fully cover the elbows.
If you want to battle both, that is your decision, however too many of these battles if you win, the teen will begin to hate Yiddishkeit and then you lose the war.
Id rather lose the battle over the shoes that covers the ankles than lose the war
Zd: I think you missed my point. It was not the issue with the shoes or the blouse. It was the general comment that JA made “”Personally, i’m the type of kid who likes to break rules and i consider it my duty to do so and make sure that everyone knows it! “
To me just by making that comment the battle line was clearly drawn. It’s possible the war is still raging but based on that comment I’m not so sure.
Iacisrmma – if the war weren’t still raging, she would never have started that thread asking about ankle high shoes and specifically wanting to know if there were any halachic issues involved, and she would never have started this thread asking for advice on how to get through school, and she would never have started a thread asking if there are any halachic problems with her remaining friends with the her neighbor with whom she has been friends with her whole life.
That one was particularly impressive, especially considering the fact that is having such a hard time socially, and even thinking of giving up this friendship must have been very difficult for her. We are clearly talking about a real bas aliyah here – a girl who despite a lot of challenges, is trying really hard to grow and not to do anything against halacha.
She was honest enough to admit that it is hard for her not to break rules. It is great that she can admit her weaknesses. She should be commended for it and not criticized. It is great that she knows what her motivations and challenges are.
The reason she had mentioned that in the first place was because she was defending her school. Someone had criticized the school for making these rules that girls will break, so she defended the school by saying that she is the only one who has a hard time following the rules. It is very commendable that she was able to acknowledge that instead of blaming the school.
JA – I found someone in Lakewood who arranges mentors for high school girls. I spoke to her just now. She said that it has to go through either your parents or your principal. Are you comfortable speaking to either of them and asking them to call her to arrange mentoring for you?
I don’t want to post her information online, so I will send it separately to the moderators and ask them to pass it on to you.
Let me know what happens. Hatzlacha!
LU: I am perplexed because I don’t see where she was defending her school or Principal. Was it this comment from the “ankle high shoe” topic?
“she actually told us “go ahead, wear them at home, on sunday, whenever you want just not in school where i can see you!” She is really not my style!”
or this one from the first post of this thread?
“what motivated you to stay even though you hate every minute of it and noone in your school understands how much you hate every second and you just want to get out of there right this second and you come home crying every day and you just CAN’T STAND ANOTHER SECOND IN THAT **** place?”
or these posts?
“I would love to switch schools and i’ve made it known to everyone but my parents refuse to hear about it! “
“my principal who agreed that there’s nothing to do about bing miserable and i just have to stick it out but why should i?”
JA: “I find it even worse wen principals get involved”
Was this in response to my saying that the mentoring needs to go through your principal? Or was this in response to something else?
JA: “Lesson 2 a.o. hu’s in chinuch: nvr criticize a student 4 s.t. they did wrong cuz it’ll only mk it worse! Just don’t comment plz. and let it go!”
What about the passuk of ??????? ????????? ??? ??????????
Please do not post text speak here and please use proper spelling. For us non teenagers, we do not feel like using google translate for your posts
Iacisrmma- the possuk you brought does not in any way refute JA’s point. Actually, it might support it.
There are many conditions in order for it to be permissible to give Tochacha. If those conditions are not fulfilled, it is an AVEIRAH. One condition is that (in most cases), it is an aveirah to give tochacha if the person won’t listen. That is precisely the type of situation that JA is talking about.
JA – I was concerned about that, but I figured I would try. You had mentioned talking to your principal, so I thought it could be an option. Is there anyone else in school you could speak to? A teacher or someone?
ZD: Sounds like another battle that we don’t need here.
In my humble opinion, it’s better to make this a welcome place for her to communicate. I don’t want to impose another barrier. We get what she is saying. It’s still English.
I don’t think she needs another adult telling her that she’s not measuring up, you know?
She’s good and reaching out to us for help.
Thanks for bringing our awareness on choosing our battles wisely.
LB – ZD was the one sticking up for JA.
LB: Sorry, but “text speak” is not English. I can decipher most of it but it is certainly not easy. And it has nothing to do with measuring up. JA is reaching out for advice; asking in a language that many readers don’t understand is not to her advantage.
JA – For 9th and 10 th grades, I was in a school that was completely wrong for me. My family had moved a few days before I started high school and I wasn’t familiar with the schools in the new community, and my mother also kind of pushed me to go to a particular school which turned out to be totally not my type.
I realized from the beginning that it was the wrong place for me, so I asked my mother if I could switch and she gave me a reason why it wasn’t possible. I was a good kid, so I didn’t say anything else for 2 years.
The summer after 10th grade I worked in a camp whose raison d’etre was that the kids and counselors were from all different schools. Except that all different schools didn’t include the school I was in, but it did include the school I wanted to go to. Spending the summer with all these girls who were in the school I wanted to be in, and feeling bad about the fact that I was the only one from my school made me really upset about the whole situation.
At the end of the summer, we got something in the mail from school about the new school year, and I just started crying. My mother was like, “What’s wrong?” So I said, “I want to switch to ____.” So she was like, fine, no problem. And I switched.
That is when I learned that crying is the way to get what you want, but it usually doesn’t occur to me to cry in front of other people. It was a bit frustrating to think that I spent 2 years being miserable when that was all it took!
I am very glad I switched. I didn’t like the second school either but for different reasons than the reasons that I didn’t like the first school. Even though I didn’t like the second school either, I am still glad I switched because the first school was really not the right place for me (too modern). I once told someone that I’m glad I switched because now I can say that I went to Bais Yaakov. That might sound superficial but it’s really not – it’s just being realistic.
Socially it was hard since most of the kids had been together since kindergarten. Also, even though they were more similar to me in certain ways, they were different in others. But I had a very hard time socially in the first school as well, albeit for different reasons. And since I didn’t like either school anyhow, I’m glad I only had to deal with each one for two years.
Bottom line: I am glad I switched. But at the same time, I don’t recommend it for everyone. You have to think about the reasons why you want to switch and if things will really be better in the second place.
JA – did you try asking your mechaneches about mentoring? Did you ask her if she speak to the person I told you about?
LB – sorry, I didn’t realize you were referring to the comment about text speak. I thought you meant something else. But in any case, I do agree with Iacisrmma’s response in defense of ZD’s comment. Although I hear your point as well, and it is nice of you to be so sensitive.
Have you thought about taking your relationship with God outside of school? I was in a high school that didn’t work out for me, and I began to see that it was having a harmful effect on the rest of my life and my religion. I took it back by telling myself that my observance and life, is and will be, independant of my school. In school, I formed a kesher with the one Rabbi who understood me, and followed his guidance in what to do in many matters, and he made the politics going on in school much easier for me, and let me have my way over how everything was going to work with myself. Out of school, I attended local programs to build a better connection with God and reinforced into myself that my experience then was in no way proper Judaism and it does not reflect on the rest of the world. I did whatever I could to make the rest of my time there work, and then at the first opportunity, I got out of there.
It appears to me that you feel misunderstood and judged by your school and home. You get criticized for the smaller things in life, such as open buttons and hairstyles, and the bigger issue that you’re not happy where you are (and the like) are completely ignored by your school, your parents and others. It also sounds like you don’t feel like yourself at Bais Yaakov, and you put on a facade of a “Bais Yaakov Maidel,” just to get by and have friends. So it may be time to do what you can to carve out a proper life for yourself with appropriate (appropriate being relative) influences outside the Bais Yaakov “community.” Find a mentor that understands you, and you feel can guide you in the right direction. Surround yourself with friends that care for who you really are, and will help you create a proper life for yourself. Make sure you’re able to have your own world that will allow you to move on. Once you’re there, it will be much easier, and you’ll be able to take the next steps of going to a better place.
Thanks LU. But who really doesn’t understand what she is saying? There is a difference between someone taking a little longer to process and comprehend versus speaking another language entirely.
Yes honestly someone is coming to us in tears and we’re barking at her to speak more clearly.
She’s dealing with stuff! Gosh. You want her to take what she wrote and then spend how much time editing it, while she is in school and likely has homework to do as well. Plus she’s struggling with her parents and school teachers.
Even if it takes us a little more time to read it, isn’t it better to welcome the person and do the translation ourselves then make more hoops for her to get some help?
We can model by example by writing and communicating effectively, with proper English grammar and pronunciation. When and if she is ready, then she can reciprocate.
There is no use adding to her burdens when all she wanted was some help. She told us that she is sensitive to criticism already. I believe her.
JA – let me know if you are able to ask your mechaneches to call Chasy Silverstein to arrange mentoring for you. If not, I will have to try to see if I can find something else.
“That is when I learned that crying is the way to get what you want, but it usually doesn’t occur to me to cry in front of other people. “
<stunned>
do you realize that this comment is stating that you learned how to manipulate people? Any parent concerned with their child’s chinuch will teach them that you do NOT cry to get your way, and you do not get your way by crying. I cannot fathom why you would want to admit something like this in public forum. And please don’t say you were just kidding- this exact behavior (getting emotional when things don’t go your way) is what a handful of posters had called you out on and you vehemently denied it but now your are saying it as a mere fact.
If you are unaware how this behavior is not okay you may want to work on it. If you aren’t ready to work on it, it may be in your best interest not to state it online. Obviously with your best interests only. Anyone else who understands what this means is not going to think highly of this behavior so you may want to rethink your view on doing it. For your own sake, of course and your own personal growth.
Syag Lchochma: If you ever want to help someone who isn’t, or wasn’t, happy, criticism is never the way to go, acceptance and love does ten times more. If someone shares something personal, blasting them about something you find wrong is not the way to go.
Shoutout to the mods for a great caption!
SL: LU was telling us her story of how she learned how to communicate honestly with her mother about her pain.
LU told us that she was miserable for 2 years at a mis-matched school. Yet since she was a good girl, she kept her misery to herself until finally one day she burst out crying when the school’s yearly planner arrived in their mail.
LU was surprised that all she had to do was cry and the world, her mother, would listen.
It was a powerful story to share with JA,for it allowed JA to see that maybe she can also tell her parents how she feels, and her parents maybe will see that JA is a good girl who happens to be in the wrong school.
Based on LU’s stories, and some of my projecting, I think LU was taught that holding back her feelings was what a “good girl” does. A “good girl” does not think about her own needs and just swallows whatever she is told is good for her.
At some point LU realized that she needed to be for herself, “Im lo ani li, mi li?”
There is nothing manipulative here. LU was crying from the heart. Because she was in true pain. It took a lot for her to get to that place of letting someone else see her tears.
LB – thank you so much for getting the point and explaining it so well. I had decided not to respond to SYAG since I have learned during my time in the CR that it is not kidai to “feed the trolls” and Chazal say that one should not say something to someone who won’t listen.
But then I got nervous that JA might end up getting the wrong message and losing the message that I had put so much effort into getting across, and it occurred to me that in a way I was being selfish by focusing on the schar I was getting and not thinking about the effect on JA. But I still wasn’t sure how to respond in a way that would get the point across.
Thank you for doing it so well.
<3
calling me a troll is exactly the degrading diversionary motzei shem ra I have come to expect from you. You should know I will never be moichel you for calling me that and no matter how hard you try to convince yourself or let others convince you that halacha is on your side you are wrong. I am not moichel.
“I am not moichel”
I guess we are even then, because there are many things that I am not moichel you for.
Looking forward to seeing you two before Yom Kippur!
Or depending on your hashkafah, maybe before Rosh Hashanah 🙂
lol – even? You have a very skewed but unfortunately inaccurate understanding of halacha. And I am not learned enough, B”H, to question if it falls into the realm of apikorsus, but it is certainly a dangerous impression to give to the less informed posters.
LB, sorry it passed already without my being apologized to, and I already said the tefilas zaka.
LU, thanks for teaching me about tefilas zaka. I didn’t know that there was a special term. Very kind <3
I know that neither of you are apikorus.
JA – in case you miss my previous post, please let me know if you feel comfortable asking your mechaneches to speak to Chasy Silverstein about arranging a mentor for you? Thanks.
bump
Boruch Hashem, I am SO, SO happy to hear that!!!! Please keep us updated and let us know how it goes.
In a way, it might be good that it’s your mother’s friend. I sometimes look back and wish that I had spoken to one of my mother’s friends about things that were happening at home. I feel like it could have been very helpful. It’s unfortunate that it never occurred to me to speak to anyone about stuff.
If it doesn’t work out with her, you can always ask your parents if you can go to someone else instead. But I think you should give her a try first and really put an effort into trying to make it work.
Hatzlacha!!! Keep us posted.
If they are paying her and she’s working as a social worker, she is bound to privacy laws. There may be a conflict of interest here. However you have the right to ask to be referred to another person if you feel uncomfortable.
Yet I agree to give it a try. Just be yourself.
It could also be good that she knows your family and whatever you tell her, for the most part (unless it has to do with harming someone or crimes chas v’shalom), must remain private on her end.
So you’re free to be you and tell her what you’ve confessed to us here.
B’Hatzlacha as well 🙂
I’m so sorry :(. Just try to keep reminding yourself that midterms are meaningless, and you will be finished school in a year and a half Im Yirtzeh Hashem, and then all of this will be meaningless!!!
Unfortunately, school is the main part of your life now, but once you finish school, it is meaningless, and for most of your life it will be something from the distant past that you barely remember and doesn’t matter anymore.
I had a very hard time in high school, but now I barely remember it.
Did you speak to the social worker yet? How did it go?
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