How to increase Tzinius

Pashuteh Yid,

Such a question arises from ignorance. It goes without saying, and I’m certain I speak for everyone, that such activity that you describe is sick. Anyone who engages in it is from a lunatic fringe. That you should equate that with the holy mitzvah of tzinius, speak for itself of your views of the subject. (Its somewhat akin to asking a pro-lifer if he supports those who bomb abortion clinics. You want to defame pro-lifers?)

There is not a single group that shaves, that advocates mandating that for all Yidden. If you are blinded to the tzinius crisis (and if there ever was a crisis, this is it) and refer to concerns to alleviate it as “Burkification and Nunnification proceedings”, than you have a lot of soul searching to do, once you are out of denial.

To be pashut is good- tamim thya im Hashem. . . but your comments are anything but pashut. I am sorry everyone in this thread agrees that acid bleach screaming etc. . . is not going to bring about more tznius. I think the point of this discussion, which is an important one is to try to think of different more palitable approaches. Why do you need to mix in all this shtuyot into an important discussion. If Joseph or who ever strated this wanted to throw acid on untzinusdig women he and all the rest of us would do so, we are brainstorming and sharing ideas to work towards a common goal. If you don’t share that vision or in your neighboorhood everything is fine (please tell us where you live cuz I live ina really frum place, and I still think there are ways to go in this area) than maybe you should try a different “room”

Tznius Story by my firend Avigayil(i did not write it -my firend did!!)

She wore Abercrombie shirts, Hollister or Juicy sweatshirts with a wife beater underneath (occasionally backwards). Overall, she was just a normal girl- volleyball, debate, dance head, and a million more teams and extra curricular activities throughout the year. She had her bad days but her friends were always there to cheer her up.

One day she was extremely confident because she was wearing her favorite socks and had gotten compliments from girls that were not only seventh and eighth graders. They were cute. They had pompoms but they were extra special because they went underneath the ankle so you do not feel hot and the pompoms went higher so you could wear any shoes with them.

She was schmoozing by the office with her friends when the bell rang and then ran up the stairs at warp speed because her teacher then just does not understand that you need a few minutes to get to class after break and that other teacher take away the beginning of your break so you need the extra time.

Anyway, she ran upstairs but on the way something weird happened to her foot and she fell down the stairs. She screamed and Hatzolah was called. After a few days and a lot of Tehillim she died.

pashute yid

i only saw your reply now so thats why the late response.

regarding the pack of clips, no thank you, i’d like my nephew to remain a leader.

and regarding the tzniyus issue:

usually i agree with what you write, however here why do you go to the extreme!?

my point of the story wasn’t to say the girls and women should dress like nuns or as the taliban does, my point is the men should just stop starring!

I heard from a rebbizten, women and girls should NOT dress shlumpy rather THEY SHOULD DRESS ATTRACTIVE! yes, women should dress attractive, when a girl is in shidduch age, the father is MECHUYAV to buy her nice clothes-for a boy to be attracted to her!

and about lakewood, they do have a tzniyus issue, b”h not so severe but it is bad. come on the weekday and you’ll see for yourself.

Pushut Yid, Neither Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, nor Rav Ephraim Wachsman, nor Rav Mattisyahu Solomon said anything of the like. So who are you to spit in Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Ephraim Wachsman, AND Rav Mattisyahu Solomon faces?

Answer this:

How can you stand opposed to Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Ephraim Wachsman, AND Rav Mattisyahu Solomon on your own two legs? WHO ARE YOU TO STAND AGAINST THEM?

pashute yid,

firstly, it sounds like you know the gemara and shulchan oruch off by heart.

second, tzniyus issues are everywhere, and yes that includes the ‘iyr hatorah’ (aka. lakewood). yes, when people do come to Lakewood, for instance for a shabbos, they’d dress with sensitivity, because lemaysa in actuality their in Lakewood.

thirdly, what do you mean? are you saying tzniyus is not the main issue for a woman?

Chavie,

This reminds me of a story I heard from a friend named Saki:

There was onced a girl who was famous among her friends for her tznius. When her classmates would wear unsuitable clothing she would dress appropriately, and made sure to tell them how they should be dressing. Even when her classmates wore clothing that complied with her school’s dress code, she made sure to tell them if she felt their clothes were inappropriate.

Her teacher was so impressed by this behavior that she gave her a special “tznius medal” to wear on a chain (under her clothing of course). Unfortunately one day she was busy telling one of her nebach classmates that her skirt was the wrong type. As a result she missed the first bell and was running to class so she wouldn’t be late. Suddenly her “tznius medal” slipped and she tripped on it and fell down the stairs. Despite the many thousands who said tehillim for her she died.

“Fear of punishment freezes people and prevents them from making any real change.”

the above is Bowzers opinion.

R” Yisroel Salanter in Ohr Yisroel stresses over and over that the most important thing that all Yidden must work on and devote time every day to contemplate, is fear of punishment, in this world and primarily in the World To Come.

Msilus Yesharim and Chovos HaLavovos and Shareii Tshuvah also spend a great deal of time discussing the critical nature of fear of punishment.

feivel,

I agree with you 100%. However I just wanted to add that if a person’s actions are ONLY based on fear of punishment without a love of Hashem and his mitzvos then he will takeh, as bowzer said, freeze and be prevented from making any real change. On the other hand if fear is taken out of the equation and we only act on love of Hashem, then if we decide we’re not in the mood then we’ll stray. That’s where fear of punishment is needed.

Correct me if I’m not quoting correctly: Asei me’ahava she’ain ha’ohev soneh, asei miyiroh she’ain hayoreh boi’et

charlie

there are different meanings and levels to both Yireh and Ahavah.

this can be quite confusing as you and i are perhaps talking about different things

id like to drop this online subject for now if you dont mind

feivel

fievel I am not arguing that one needs to know there is halacha and violation of halacha is wrong and one is accountable for all there actions. Nor do I think these seforim are outdated. However, in the use of these types of stories, they are used to scare people into doing things with out thinking and feeling, it is a short term scare tactic. WE do not know why Hashem chooses to do things in this world, we can not know if something is a punishment or a test. By claiming that certain things happen as punishment for sin X is not for us to determin. Each person does a personal cheshbon hanefesh and sometimes Rabbonim express their opnions to connect an event with instructions to be mechazek in a certain area. These types of stories which chani posted are not stories being told over by gedolim to instill yiras hachet in our hearts but rather stories being told over by people who want to be the “queen of tznius” and enjoy feeling holier than though. When I said “fear of Punishment” I was referring to these stories which evoke a “fake” sensationistic type of fear as oppsed to yiras shamyim, which means to see Hashem, to see that Hashem is always in front of me and is always with me a sees all my actions and Hashem who loves me, wants me to stay on the right path and if I stray will help me return to the right path and if I don’t get His messages, Hashem will send louder ones, which might be in the form of “punishment” and than if I still don’t get it one will pay the price in olam haba.

For a number of years there were a group of women who went fro city to city in ERetz Yisrael putting on a play to be michzek women in tznius. What was the play about? A women who was a tzeadkes, careful in shimras Halosheon,sent her husband to learn, raised her children in ahavas Torah, was tznu, didn’t wear a shatiel only tichel. When she dies she came to bais Din shel maala, and because she used to sing while she bakes, she was sentanced to kaf hakelah. Than her grandmother comes and her zechus she comes backa s a gilgul. This play was seen by many women, what was their reactions?

If she was so good and she was going to get kaf hakelah, what about me, forget it!

I took the play and changed it from negative to posotive, because she did something small and was carefull she was rewarded greatly in shamyim, The reaction- real change- women felt empowered to make a difference in the world, by making sure my skirt cover my knees I am bringing more kedusha into my home , my city the whole world, I am providing Hashem a place to rest his shechina. If the vaad hatznius would speak encouragingly to women, show them what amazing things they are doing by covering their hair, I think this would motivatie a lot of women to be more careful, and it does, i’ve seen it over and over again.

Bowzer, you are 100% right about this scaring business being total nonsense and detrimental to a yid’s development, and frightening to a child.

First of all, Moshe asked the RBSH why tzaddikim often suffer and reshaim often prosper, and the RBSH said that he can’t give him an answer (vraisa es achori v’es ponai lo yerau). There is a concept of yisurin shel ahavah.

It seems one of the basic reasons for so much of the negativity and scare tactics used by the chareidi world stems from an incorrect understanding of why the RBSH created the world. The prevalent attitude is there is this very mean guy in the sky, and he gave us many difficult and mean laws, and if we break even one detail of one of them, then the mean guy gets no greater pleasure then bashing our heads to pieces, and burning down our houses. The mean guy has a major ego problem, and even one hint of disrespect will cause him to pour down his wrath. He created the world and the laws as a sadistic means of torture.

This hashkafah is baloney. The RBSH is an Av Harachaman. He only wants to give and give more. He loves it when yiddishe kinder daven and make brachos. Not because he needs the brachos, but because this teaches the children midos tovos, that they should always appreciate the effort that goes into all the good things we have and that people do for us. We must learn hakaras hatov.

We fast on Yom Kippur, as the haftarah says, to feel what it is like for a poor man to go without food. We learn to share our food, and invite the aniyim merudim into our homes. The RBSH wants nothing more than people should not hurt each others feelings, and should care for each others needs.

We have a Shabbos to teach us, that although we always worry so much about where our next meal and mortgage payment will come from, we have the right to relax, and let the RBSH worry about that for one day a week. We trust him that he will take care of us, even though we can’t do anything on our own that day. We also learn that even the other days when we do work, the results all come from him. He gave us our hands and our minds and all our talents, and created a sophisticated word that allows one to be paid for his skills. We also get a day to be with our families and learn intersting Torah thoughts, without the constant stress.

We have tznius to teach us that we can’t take what doesn’t belong to us. Each person has only one spouse. If we start up with another person, we deprive somebody else of his relationship with his spouse. We also ruin our own relationship with our own spouses. By reading the papers, we see how terribly certain famous people have messed up their lives and their careers by not keeping the laws of tznius. Hashem doesn’t want this to happen to us, as it is very painful. Even though these halachos are difficult, it saves us even greater pain in the long run.

We can go on and on. There is a moral lesson in each law to make us better and kinder and happier people. The laws are there for our own benefit. By learning Torah we learn more and more of Hashem’s kindness. We learn the chochma with which he created the world. We also learn to split hairs to arrive at the emes. Chas vshalom one penny should not be taken from a person unfairly in a din torah. This requires trained thinking skills which we get from the gemara. The Rambam says we can also develop ahavas hashem from studying science, and learn the incredible details and precision that are present in every part of the world. All these details are needed to make the world operate correctly for our benefit.

We have a beautiful Torah and way of life, and much to be thankful for. You can be sure that the RBSH is happy when he hears the sweet singing of a yiddishe mama when she makes challah. Rebbe Yisroel Salanter once said when someone complained of a maid’s singing that she has every right to sing, and the men need to get out.

It is sad that some in the Chareidi world miss the boat big time on the entire game plan, and in the process instill fright into little children in order to get them to knuckle under to their terrifying and primitive world view.

at the risk of being accepted to your club, pashuta- (as refered to on a different thread)

This was a good post. In my work I deal with the results of this negative programming and it’s not easy to unprogram kids and even more difficult to unprogram adults.

Since this “room” was about suggestions on how tom improve tznius i have given mine.

Feivel,

One more VERy important point. A much needed caveat/correction to your understanding of R’ Yisroel Salanter.

First off. It is not just R’ Yisroel Salanter who said Yiras Shomayim is number 1.

FYI, the Ba’al Shem Tov and the Biggest Talmidim of the Ba’al Shem who are famous for there ‘positive attitude’ approach to sinners etc. have also stated quite clearly that the first step in Avodas Hashem is Yiras HaOnesh.

That being said….

Yiras haOnesh like any TRUE CHovos haLevovos cannot be forced on somebody. Every individual needs to work on this for themselves.

By using a positive approach a person’s heart cvan be opneded into developing Yiras HaOnesh for himself. These crazy stories DO NOT encourage any true Yiras haOnesh – the opposite they cause 1 of 2 things 1) rebellion 2) lemele keit.

In case you were not aware – Yiras haOnesh is not lemele keit. It shtams from a very healthy sense of knowing that Hashem – not some kook rabbi or rebbitsenm – is looking at me. Aderaba – a person w/true Yiras Onesh has Azus d’Kedusha (OZ v’Hodor LEVUSHA) – which as the Gemoro says in Beitza was the prime reason why klal yisroel were picked to be His nation.

have the gedolim assur/discourage premium cars, such as lexus, acura, BMW, etc.

Why do we need these except to show off?

If you need a luxury auto get an Avalon or Maxima fully loaded and you won’t be able to tell the difference. If you need to show off to clients then get a Prius or other hybrid, they will be more impressed by that.

Pashuta- one more thing (addictions are hard to break) SOME ONE ELSE YARD WHEn it bother them IS ASUR.

rELIGION (HALAHCA) Culture and mentality

three things to know the difference and keep them seperate.

Pahsuta- next time you come to EY (bmerha byamnu) get in contact with me and I’ll show you the beautiful side of charedi live.

Lgbg, I should stick to making chulent.

Bowzer, I found your last post very hard to read and understand. But I do agree that there are many positive aspects of chareidim. However, those aspects are the ones that come from halacha. However, they have tacked on many layers of culture which have nothing to do with halacha and shulchan oruch onto the Torah. By doing this they are in the geder of kol hamosif gorea. They make it seem like keeping the Torah is such a terrible burden when it doesn’t have to be.

Let me give an example from the book Miracle Ride by Tzipi Caton (Shaar Press). The book is about a 16 yr old girl with cancer. Because of chemo, her hair fell out. She got a sheitel, but was uncomfortable wearing it sometimes, since she didn’t want to look married. She liked to wear a bandana. One motzaei shabbos she went to the store to get some things (Lakewood, I believe). A frum woman confronts her and says the bandana is not appropriate. She says to the woman that she has a disease, and it should be rather obvous why she is wearing it. The woman tells her, I don’t care. It is setting a terrible example for other girls. They get into an argument in front of the whole store.

Can you imagine the horrendous midos of this woman? To fight with a girl who has cancer in public??? Furthermore, there is absolutely no halacha whatsoever involved here. Just some stupid conception of some stranger that she doesn’t particularly like the style of a certain head-covering, and invents some frumkeit on the spot. Literally makes up a new Torah right out of thin air, and has the chutzpah to impose it on someone else.

This is chareidi culture, which has zero to do with shulchan oruch. Wearing black and white only for men is another example. A mishnah even says that one who thinks hashem won’t answer my tefilos if I wear colored clothes, must immediately be removed from being a baal tefila, and we are choshesh that he is an apikorus.

I hear that in Kiryas Sefer, boys may not play any team sports after a certain age (well below bar-mitzvah, I believe). Men may not jog. Correct me if I am wrong.

When you add on things that have no real halachic basis, and despite the fact that exercise is healthy according to the Rambam, (uses word mitamel, just like modern word hitamlut), you turn the rest of the klal off even to matters of real halacha. They just assume that everything the chareidi does is untraorthodox chumros, so they will not listen even to the halachic matters. I gave example of movies. Why should they listen, when you also tell them ball-playing is ossur. They rightly assume you have a different culture and upbringing. Again, kol hamosif gorea. If we want to bring the klal together, we may have to shed some excess baggage. Why not use the shulchan oruch as a nice compromise. The entire klal will keep the shulchan oruch, no more and no less.

I have many close friends and chavrusas in the chareidi world, and they are ehrlich people. I never was bothered by that world until I started reading some of the posts here by certain hotheads, who I am trying my hardest to convince myself are not representative of the chareidim in general. But unfortunately, I do believe that their hashkafas do reflect the chareidi leadership, although not necessarily their behavior.

As far as terrifying and primitive, I was referring to the pedagogical tactics of some, but not the chareidim in general.

Getting back to the original Tznius topic. Let me say that I don’t believe a Vaad Hatznius is the way to go in Lakewood. I predict a few things things will happen:

1) Bnai Torah will resent being told that they of all people don’t know how to keep tznius on their own. But because of the terror of getting a friendly letter or knock on the door from the Vaad which could mean that their kids may be taken out of school, or hurt shidduchim prospects or cause embarrasment, they will in turn terrorize their wives and children about how they dress.

2) This will lead to a spike in shalom bayis issues and people moving out of Lakewood.

3) The takana will be repealed, as was Takanas Ezra many years ago.

Have more to say (as if I didn’t already say enough), but another time.

To me the whole issue is much simpler than everyone makes it. When a young lady dons a shorth or tight skirt or one with a slit, or any article of clothing that exposes her body or body form, what is she thinking??? Every girl has either a husband or father who is turned on by other women who dress provocitavly, so why can’t they explain to their loved ones that they don’t want other men coveting them? Forget about frumkeit! This is the most elementary thing that any human being should understand. And if they don’t think that lifney ivair is such a terrible thing, then why don’t they just walk down the streets completely naked, then everyone will look at them.

True it is very hard to find normal tzniusdik clothing these days, but if we would all put pressure on the stores, they will have them made, just as big manufacturers make shabbos ovens!

to pashute yid..PS to our former post, see s’u ohrech chaim 53 seuf 18 l’gabay reason not wanting to daven in colored clothing is posile for sheluach tzibbur …not the first time you came with your am hartzishon pshat ( remember YOUR paht tosfos bruchous 5b d’h “dina belo dina”?).(what happend to your ‘bar illan’ cd). wont bother to find link ,takes too much time,and waste anyway because you all are not miode al huenmes and try to weasle out of every post of yours we refer you too…

Bowzer, I agree about the animals. Moshe Rabbeinu was chosen not because he was the best guy in Lakewood, but because he shlepped a poor sheep. I was going to add this to a list which Reb Jent has asked me to compile about differences in chareidi culture, but will take some time to make full list. Your example is exactly what I am talking about. ALso, the fact that they called your kids goyim, and think that whatever inyan there is (if indeed there is any at all about animals) overrides onaas devarim and tzaar baalei chayim is the typical behavior I am taking about. I could not have said it better myself. The word chareidi too often means fear and trembling before one’s neighbor who will get your kids removed from school, and ruin shidduchim. It also means avodah myirah rather than meiahavah, as in my earlier post.

Another example, relatives in Lakewood told us about a guy who bought a convertible car, and was riding with the top down in Lakewood. Sure enough, they took all his kids out of school. Now, I am not defending an overly flashy lifestyle al pi mussar, but lmaysah, al pi din, there is not an iota of a problem with such a car. It simply didn’t mesh with the chareidi culture, so you have the right to be metzaer beyond all words every single member of the family including young kids. Is this what the RBSH wants? This ugly gayvah, I am better than you, and you are not good enough for our clique.

It is too long for now, but the Chareidi world is very frightened about anything that will cause the kids to go off the derech. What they do not realize, is that the hysterical fear itself is what is really causing the kids to go off. It is mamash like living in a witch-hunt. I don’t know how one can take it living in certain neighborhoods. I am willing to bet that the Vaad Hatznius will lead to less tznius on the whole, as kids and families snap under the pressure, and go their own way.

Reb Jent Shlita, Do not see anything in your citation that is kneged what I said. It says that apikursim were makpid on colors, michlal that yidden are not. A rayah to me. Doesn’t mention any one sect of ovdei avodah zara who wore all white. M”B brings the Pri Chadash who says if he gave an immediate amatla (explanation) that he was concerned about kovod hamakom, he can daven, but Magen Avrohom says even if he says it is anivus lifnei the RBSH to be in all white, we still do not let him daven. My Bar Ilan CD is version 12, and doesn’t have all the nosei keilim. Plan to upgrade, and think they have more, now.

Do not have any recollection of saying pshat in gemara brochos about story of sour wine bottles or of arguing with you over pshat. Please remind me. (I think you argued with someone else.) If true, will be my honor to argue with you over it again. Im shamata byoshon, tishma bchodosh, v’im lav, shuv lo tishma.