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Please provide your suggestions how to increase Tzinius awareness in our communities, and how to enforce the proper decorum amongst the noshim.
(1) This is not a topic for a Frum forum as it will invite every crazy to write some inappropriate comment.
(2) By “noshim” I assume you mean women?
(3) What about enforcement amongst the “anoshim” (men)?
(4) You see, I already contradicted (1).
First step in AWARENESS. Educate the public about hilchos tznius, & maybe learning a bit every day.
this “decorum amongst the noshim” seem like some sort of joke!
Ask your local rov
and its not for a forum
.
Is this about your noshim or my noshim?
I do an ok job with my noshim.
Are you asking how we control our noshim?
I really don’t get it.
Are you alluding to a problem that you have with yourself, your noshim, or my noshim?
Check out “Sometimes You Are What You Wear! An Argument for Tzniut – Modesty” by Eliyahu Safran… A powerful, sensitive, thought provoking book on this tough subject. No preaching there; makes you think with dignity and respect for yourself, on this tough subject! http://www.modestybook.com
People should realize that alot of this isn’t the women’s fault. They don’t just wake up in the morning and say, “how am I going to get dressed not tznius today?” They get encouraged by their husbands to dress a certain way. If both the husbands and wives would realize that a wife should look beautiful for her husband (i.e. in their home), and not for everyone else (i.e. outside the home), then maybe both of them wouldn’t feel like she has to dress up so shtotty before she goes out of the hgouse everyday,
One place to start is with the stores selling these clothing. Please explain to me how a store that has branches in BP, Flatbush, and Cedarhurst sells ONLY skirts that barely brush the knee, if that much, and that’s ON A SHORT PERSON!!! Then you have a store right in middle of Coney Island Avenue that the store sign itself has women parading on a runway AND NOT ONE PERSON HAS DONE ANYTHING TO DECRY THIS! I personally do not shop in this store because it makes me sick to see this. Have we become so desensitized that women in skirts above the knee are the accepted norm?
I’ve always been taught that tzniut was at least as much about “insides”: That when I truly internalize torah values, that I will naturally want to dress and express myself modestly and the relatively small numbers of specific halachot regarding dress will not be an issue.
First of all, one of this dors major nesayon is tniyus.
Second of all husbands and fathers are mechyov to make sure their wives and daughters dress in the gedarim of tzniyus. So dont just go shift the blame on the women because believe it or not there are men out there who make there wives dress untzniyusdik.
Maybe if we did more to teach about the beauty of Tznius as well as bolstering our children’s self confidence they wouldn’t feel the need to attract attention in such a goyish manner.
MAKE COPIES OF THIS PAGE AND PASTE IT IN ALL SHULS, OR WHERE EVER GIRLS, WOMEN (MEN ALSO) WILL READ IT.
TZNIUS IS OUR PRIDE AND GLORY!
The Torah states:
???????? ?????? ??????
Holy You Should Be!
By wearing immodest clothing we distance the Shechina (Divine Presence) from us.
As the Torah states:
??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??????
Immodesty should not be seen amongst you!
Or Hashem will withdraw his presence from you!
When the Shechina departs, we are stripped of our protection ?”?
Maybe this is why so many tzoros, illness, crushing poverty and unbearable tragedies, have befallen us.
In the words of the Holy Chofetz Chaim tzl in a famous letter:
To a large degree this despicable style negates the statement of the Torah:
Tight-fitting, short, flashy clothing, low cut necklines, long extravagant sheitels, etc. are contrary to Tznius standards,
Dear Sisters!
Let us wear clothes that are befitting for Jewish Daughters. This will cause the Shechina to reside in our midst. This will bring many blessings upon ourselves, and ultimately bring the Geulah Sheleima ??”?
????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????! The key to our salvation is in your hands!
We should teach how the attitude some jewish women have is precisely what reform taught – during the haskala, the teshuvah seforim had to address situations and shailos from men who asked how to make kiddush if their wife’s neckline was exposed, or other unheard-of shailos – and that was in the 1800’s. kal vechomer today. Rav Avigdor Miller ZTVK”L taught us powerful lessons about how the holocaust was midah keneged middah in every aspect of observance which klal yisroel abandoned in europe – tznius was one of them; because they did not dress modestly they were forced to be naked r”l and humiliated. Such powerful lessons need to be taught to today’s youth. The loss of tznius is the result of a bigger problem, a lack of understanding that you cannot raise a child in a home with televisions, internet(although yeshivanet is doing something wonderful, in my opinion), magazines and other poison and expect them to be yireh shamayim without painfully breaking themselves of their upbringing once they realize they have been thinking like a goy all their lives – sadly this is what happened to me, and I do not want anyone to experience that pain.
We need to take responsibility, first and foremost. It does not matter if something will drive people away – if someone will, chas veshalom, leave yiddishkeit because of not being able to flaunt one’s body, than you cannot blame chinuch or being ‘judgemental’ – you can blame whoever taught them the shtus. We live in a time when if you tell someone anything is the least bit wrong – you’re some kind of preacher or fanatic – this is not the 60’s where people did whatever they wanted and if, g-d forbid, someone voiced sechel, they were met with ‘get off my back, man’ inbetween pulls of marijuana.
Where is the line drawn? Why is it not considered judgemetal to tell your kids to keep shabbos or kosher? Why is it davka the things that america considers tabboo that we cant teach our kids? Why is it that if someone tells as girl how to dress they are judgemental, but if they say not to break shabbos they’re just doing chinuch? Same with pre-marital relationships and everything in that whole sphere – it’s a doubel standard with a line that can be drawn exactly where american attitudes draws it – when will we wake up?
Being judgemental is judging the person. If you tell a girl who is immodest that she’ll roast in gehinnom..thats not torah and that is judgemental, but that is as far as the concept extends.
Education isn’t the only thing – in places like shuls and other centers of the kehilos there has to be a zero tolerance policy for these issues – we can offer women tzniusdige clothing to wear just when they’re in shul(kind of like how they have talisim outside the shuls) just to instill a community-wide stance on tznius. Nothing is going too far, and nothing is to be considered ‘fanatical’. Like I wrote before, we can take a real lesson from the charedim in eretz yisroel – they react to the poisons of immodesty firmly and uncompromisingly, and so should we, even if that means ruffling a few feathers in the communities that are dens of this illness.
Everyone should speak to their personal Rov about enforcing Hilchos Tznius in their own Shul. If he wants he can call HaRav Simch Bunim Cohen Shlita, who did a fabulous job in his Kehilla. If you have the whole Shul keeping the Halachos, it will already become the trend, and it wont be such a nisayon for them.
Behavior has to be tziyusdik also. The furniture in your house,the lamps,your cars,all should be avrage,not show-off styles. This ” I got to out-do the other”attitude is the root cause. The police have uniforms,the army,nurses,etc all have special uniforms. Our b’nei and b’nos Torah also have uniforms. They show others who we proudly belong to.Don’t bring goyishe magazines (esp. fashion) or catalogs into your homes. Don’t watch TV,esp the commercials. Don’t follow the goyishe world,where the dress of the President’s wife can be a headline article. What a person wears is not always in tune of what he IS. But it SHOULD be. Tzniyusdig behavior by decently dressed people,not only in shul,but also at vacation places.What’s the point of making sure there is no shaatnez in your garment if it is not tzniyusdig?
Women in the workplace is a big part of the problem. You can’t dress, act and look like a good ol’ fashioned yiddishe Mamma on Wall Street.
WE will inhance the it by minding your own business.
One of the problems is that people look for kulas in this area. Chalila that we should ever be mekil on our kashrus, but when it comes to tznius, we look for the easy way out; it covers the knee sometimes, but if you move this way it doesn’t, or it covers everything, but is really too tight, or the sheital covers every hair, but no one can even tell that it’s not real hair… Tznius is a mitzvah like any other and must be treated as such. We cannot play games looking for ways to push the boundaries of the spirit of the law while remaining true to the letter. A few simple rules that Rabbonim (as well as parents) should set forth: if it doesn’t work in every physical position you may find yourself in, don’t wear it; if you will have to keep an eye on it all day, don’t wear it; if it is the bare minimum of muttar, avoid it; regarding sheitals, if people have to do a double take, don’t wear it! Either get a sheital that looks like a proper sheital or stick with teichals and snoods! By the way, men, tznius applies to you too, and the fault is not entirely with women. Men need to behave in a tzanua manner, and make sure not to draw unnecessary attention to themselves either.
“Where is the line drawn? Why is it not considered judgemetal to tell your kids to keep shabbos or kosher?”
Matesyahu 23, what about people who use the various Brooklyn eruvim and those who don’t? Should the “Don’ts” stand on the street and scream at the “does”? Oh, excuse me, some already do and do you think that works?
What about those who use hechsherim that others don’t? Again, should the yelling start?
I think everyone should take a good look at themselves and fix what needs to be. Take care of your families and see that they look/eat/do what is right.
Tzniyus is very important but by standing on a street corner yelling or in a forum like this yelling, you will not accomplish any thing.
BTW, since we are talking about Nashim, what about ANOSHIM who are loud on the streets, or bochrim who sneak into alleys of homes near their yeshiva to smoke? How lovely and frum they look. How about anoshim who block driveways or other cars when they are rushing to “chap” a minyan? What about…I could go on and on but at least they are dressed properly in black and white.
OOOOHH! I forgot! We are talking about the problem with those horrible Nashim now! Sorry. I guess we have to refer to coment #1.
just me – Firstly – the eruv has some support, sort of, and while of course it should be taken down permanently, those people at least think there’s a yesh al ma lismoch. Same with questionable hechsherim. However, do you see them eating treif, or carrying without some rabbis saying it’s ok? NO. That’s becuase the tznius issue has NO yesh al ma lismoch. It is a blatant obscene violation of the ratzon hashem, with no two sides about it. People won’t listen to screaming about eruvin – why? because they have something to be soymech on. Same with the hechsherim(“what? this rabbi isn’t good enough for you?” type of responses, at least make sense to an am haaretz in halacha).
The bochurim who smoke hid behind allies – why davka in places where no one sees them? it’s embarrassing, and they know it is wrong and will not do it in public, which means they’ll probably stop eventually. The whole issue with these women is that it is being done befehesya with the maximum amount of damage. – the fact that people like you keep aying it’s no big deal, and the prevailing culture and ideology of the goyim wich tells them it’s normal and healthy for a woman to dsigrace her kedusha by becomign a walking micshol, which I think influences even ehrliche yidden into thinking, unconsciously, that this issue isn’t as big. Smoking is a terrible thing, but I am sorry – in halacha tznius is a more severe inyan than smoking. At best(al pi halacha), smoking cigarettes is a sakana, which endangers one person – tznius is an issur dioraisa with certain types of transgressions being a chiyuv kares, and it makes others do aveiros. I’m not saying smoking is ok – it’s not, but it is a separate issue which has no bearing on the discussion of tznius(after all, the forum is about tznius – anytime there’s a problem we can always pass the buck to another problem; why bother with problem A, problem B is there too! is an answer that in essence means, there’s more than one problem, but since there’s more than one, let’s forget about the original one! it’s just a rhetorical trick.
I never said for the average yid to go up to people on the street – that doesn’t work, however action must be taken.
“just me” you are right on the the mark, took the words right out of my mouth. although the bochors don’t hide when they smoke, I see them on the streets, outside of shuls, and yeshivas smoking. Smoking is a sakana, and it’s a fact that’s been proven by the fda that it causes cancer and other health problems, even if they just do it for “a little while.” People are saying that the way the women are dressing causes men to do an aveira, but how about the smokers who are giving everyone around them second hand smoke, and their children, and wives third hand smoke by touching them with their cigarette infested fingers. So what’s the bigger issue here? a skirt a little over the knees, or killing innocent bystanders and well as themselves. And on the topic of tznius, smoking is a huge lack of tznius, and a huge chilul Hashem as well.
Matisyohu28, Gut gezokt! yoshi, please refer to the comment before by Matisyohu28. Tznius is an Issur De’oraysa, While smoking maybe wrong, but yes, there are Rabonim who say smoking is not assur (only if you were smoking till now, but not to start, I think) and there are big Talmidei Chachomim who smoke. And even if it is a problem, but like Matisyohu28 said, just because you have one problem, is not a reason not to deal with a different problem.
I believe we are discussing tznious here, and smoking is a major lack of tznious. you say smoking is a “bigger” issue here, yet you say talmidei chachomim are smoking, and just because they are smoking does not make it right, and the fact that “highly respected” yidden are doing such things while people look the other way shows how much people DON”T think it’s a big deal.
For those of you who are ignorant to the facts of smoking, I pulled this up from a government website:
Cigarette smoking causes 87 percent of lung cancer deaths and is responsible for most cancers of the larynx, oral cavity and pharynx, esophagus, and bladder.
Secondhand smoke is responsible for an estimated 3,000 lung cancer deaths among U.S. nonsmokers each year
Tobacco smoke contains thousands of chemical agents, including over 60 substances that are known to cause cancer.
And for those of you who do not view it as a tznious issue, Let me put it in to perspective for you, Just like you’re saying that women are looking like non jews, the way they are dressing, and making men uncomfortable, and do aveiros not only do smokers look non jewish and make not just women, but everyone around you uncomfortable, and have bad thoughts about you, when you smoke, you look trashy and low class to people of all faiths.
I agree that smoking on the street lacks refinement BUT to compare a man smoking in public TO a woman in a short skirt with a long flowing sheitel,etc. etc. talking loud on the cellphone in a ridiculous, abnormal tone of voice, posing as an orthodox Jew IS RIDICULOUS. There is no comparison! Lack of tznius endangers all of us on a spiritual level, AND there is no place to run from it (unlike smoking), unless of course you can lock yourself in your own house and never come out.
The problem in the frum world is like this. Single Girls will not talk to Boys, Men which is great, but when these single girls get married, they cant stop talking to men, which is against Pirkei Avos and Shulchan Aruch, yet we see this happening in the very frum communities. Shulchan Aruch does not diffrentiate between a single girl or married one. Pirkei Avos is talking about married people. Marriage does not give women the right to talk to whoever she wants because she is married and there is no threat. This is why divorce happens in the Frum community because men and women are using marriage as an excuse to talk to whoever they want. I, Being Yeshivish went to a Yeshivish Wedding in a Chassidish Hall In Borpopark with separate entrances, separate everything, yet married men and married women were going to the other side of the mechitza introducing and speaking to other people’s husbands and wives. The purpose of the Mechitza was destroyed. This was Mamash disgusting and a huge Busha to Klal Yisrael. Tight clothes is not tznius and too much makeup is not either. Chumras are great, but Kulas in such an important halachick matter is just wrong. Single girls continue being Frum and talk and be only around girls. Married women talk to your husbands, pretend that you are single and that the only man you can talk to is your husband, so marriages will last and halacha will be followed, which will ultimately bringing closer to the geula.
Al Tarbe Sicha im Isha. Notice the mishne clearly stresses your own wife and it does not say al tarbe “dibbur” , rather Sicha. See what some of the miforshim on the mishna have to say about Sicha (as opposed to dibbur) in general.
Once done, then read the next line of the mishna “bishto amru, kal vechomer…..”. Chazal knew exactly what they were talking about. Problem is, we think we are smarter than them.
The “shabbos parade” up Kings Highway held every year has done wonders for Kedushas Shabbos. Specifically, the number of Jewish owned stores that are now closed on Shabbos.
I wonder if it is time to organize a “Tznius parade”, stopping at all heimishe owned stores, displaying clothing that “crosses the line” and threatening not to shop their until the store fully removes all clothing not suitable for the members of our community. Notice, I did not say women, men have no hetter to wear outlandish, loud and garrish clothing either. There may be no rules about hemlines and necklines but rules still do exist.
Of course, the self righteous will start with “its yennems parnassa, who gives you the right” (I doubt they feel this way if we were talking about kasrush of food or chillul shabbos), and similar “arguments”, but perhaps it is time.
Just a thought.
YGmonsey – you’re 100% right. I ever understood why so many girls ride bikes in flatbush, and rollerblade – it calls attention to them and is certainly not tznius, but I don’t understand what’s wrong with ipods, maybe it’s a chisaron in my own notion of tznius, but I dont see how an ipod is untznius.
I was horrified to see girls / women in Boro Park walking on the streets without stockings! No, not sheer tights, short kneehighs or socks with holes. BARE FEET!
The 1st time I saw it I blinked several times to make sure I wasn’t imaginging things. But I’ve seen it many times, unfortunately. Now I know some posters here have this attitude of ‘mind your own business’, & in general I’m also of that belief, but this is an obsolute Pirtza – no excuses, adaraba if any1 disagrees, find me a heter for this.
Matisyohu28- When I said I Pods, what I really meant to say was headphones. This is one of many examples of girls attracting attention.
I totally disagree that there is anything wrong with frum girls riding bikes or jogging or doing anyting necessary for exercise, if they are dressed properly. The most unhealthy thing in the world is not to exercise. Even the Rambam says so in Hilchos Dayos. Anybody who asurs girls from exercising is a chosid shoteh who thinks that his conception of “tznius” is more important than saving a life.
Men, it is all in your own head. It is up to you to control your own yetzer hara, and not to let your own failures cause you to make women’s lives miserable and unhealthy.
If a man has a problem, then should we asur women from even walking? Maybe not let them outside at all. Maybe go to the burka. There are halachos of what is permissible dress. If these are kept, it is up to the men to do the rest, not to force women to do more because of men’s weakness.
Doesn’t gemara in beginning of Sota say it was normal for men and women to converse in the marketplace? It says that if a man was mekanai his wife, then it is painful for the women because everybody will say mai hai dka bodeles min haanoshim (what is going on with this woman that she stays away from men). The gemara says clearly that it is abnormal for a woman not to be able to converse with men, as long as its not excessive (al tarbeh), but not a normal amount of pleasant everyday menschlach conversation.
Anybody who thinks that meeting an old friend at a wedding and speaking to him and his wife or something similar should be forbidden, is trying to Talibanize our religion of menschlachkeit. I have never seen any outlandish, inapropriate behavior at a wedding between married couples.
EVERYTHING A GIRL DOES ATTRACTS ATTENTION!
so maybe all girls should all go hybranate. To all guys out there: if you STOP STARRING at girls maybe they wont do things that are inappropriate!
Don’t go saying the girls are at fault here, i’d shift the blame more on the men and boys out there! get it in your head BACK OFF AND KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD!
here’s a suggestion
on Shabbos, when you are walking down the streets
tilt your hat forward
walk with your head down so you can see six feet of sidewalk in front of you
some will think you are anti social.
some will think you are overly pious and silly.
some perhaps might be a little sensitized towards tznius
in any case you will have gained a great deal of Schar
and maybe saved yourself from some quality time in Gehinnom
In my humble opinion, there’s nothing to do.
People who dress not tzinus will continue to do so regardless of any Rabbi’s speech. They need it for their self-esteem, apparently. Or they’re just acting out against their Bais Yaakovs that they felt were restricted.
The women who dress in a bakavodik manner will not need to hear anything, since they B”H dress okay, so there’s nothing really to do.
why are the men always talking about the women’s tzniyus?????? that doesnt seem so tzniyus to me!!!
why cant the men take care of themselves/women take care of the women?
why are the men looking where they shouldn’t be?
tzniyus is an issue, but overkill turns people off from wanting to change.
I think the problem is that the direct approach doesn’t work. I think the frum community needs to look at the psychological motivations behind these behaviors and go after it that way. These people know the halachos from their bais yaakov days. Simply repeating them just makes people want to do them less (people have a tendency to rebel against restrictions that they feel are “forced” on them). It is important to stress self-esteem and self-confidence in women – this is primarily the job of parents, but also the husbands. The women need to understand that they are respected no matter what they wear and if those close to them are able to express that, then we can start heading in the right direction. The next step beyond this is shidduchim and the pressure parents place on their daughters to look a certain way, otherwise they can’t get a shidduch, so how do you think that makes them feel about their essential self, beyond the outward appearance. We have psychologists in the frum community who have studied these points and the rabbonim need to speak with them and work with their kehillos on an individual and general basis to bring home the importance of these points. These messages may be more important than the direct mussar about learning torah, keeping tznius and drinking. These psychological concepts are fundamental to creating people who are shomrei torah on the inside, and don’t just do mitzvos from from community pressure.
We need to dig deep down to the underlying issues and not just see things at the surface as I think many of the comments here suggest.
josephf
you are right of course
but only if you think she will listen.
which means you must know her fairly well.
i believe Tznius (i.e. as an Asey, or a Lav) is not meforesh in the Torah, mechallel Shabbos is. different Halachos of Tochachah.
ladies dont understand the yetzer hara a man gets when he sees ladies not properly dressed so please do us a favor and save us from many aveiros its that simple
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