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Most jews do not keep kosher , the only ones who do do so because they want to (for whatever reason)
And even if you enforce kosher, How do you know that person doesnt leave the area and go to an area where there are no religous jews, doesnt know anyone there and goes to the drive in at McDonalds and orders a bacon double cheeseburger
If someone doesn’t keep kosher I’d expect them to not keep tznius. It typically goes hand-in-hand.
Joseph,
I am aware of the shulchan aruch. I am talking about the people whose behavior you are trying to correct. They are also aware of the shulchan aruch and its halachos. Your question was about increasing the level of tzniyus.
“If someone doesn’t keep kosher I’d expect them to not keep tznius.”
Is the reverse also true (someone who DOES keep kosher also follows the halachos of tznius)? In fact, you yourself have posted numerous times, as have others, it is often those who adhere to the highest levels of kashrus when it comes to their food, are the ones who need the greatest amount of chizuk when it comes to their manner of dress. So, while it is true halacha is clear where it stands as far as the food one should eat and the manner a person should dress, you (meaning me, you and the community Rav) can not legislate that people follow the shulchan aruch, nor increase their level of yiras shamayim.
This is, as stated above, for the most part not an awareness issue, but a yiras shamayim issue with chizuk needed by many to overcome this particular yetzer hara.
The only way to do anything is the power of persuasion . You have to be able to “sell” someone keeping Shabbos, Kosher, Tzniut etc and persuade them to follow. If they are unwilling to be persuaded or listen to your sales pitch, there isnt much you can do
ZD – I have no idea what you are referring to. I don’t recall having used satire at any point in this thread. And what did I write that can taken negatively? Please explain. Thank you.
“The only way to do anything is the power of persuasion . You have to be able to “sell” someone keeping Shabbos, Kosher, Tzniut etc and persuade them to follow.”
maskim.
Proof that teaching people too much about
tznius can actually cause
some problems with
tigers:They say Princes learn no art truly, but the art of horsemanship. The reason is, the brave beast is no flatterer. He will throw a prince as soon as his groom.
Ben JonsonLu
On a threat about Dating or Shiducchim, someone wrote a Satire about dating and you said one shouldnt post that because some people might actually belive it
But I don’t know what that has to do with my posts here – I didn’t write any satire. All I did was defend men who are concerned about tznius. I see nothing wrong with that.
ZD – I didn’t say they shouldn’t post it – I was just trying to understand why the moderator wrote that she felt there was a problem with a post.
I guessed that she may have been concerned that some people might really think that Frum people date that way and that’s why she wasn’t sure if the post should be posted, so I made sure to let the world know that they don’t so it wouldn’t be a problem.
That really wasn’t the concern at all. It was a message to the poster who understood it. If you are trying to understand something, a good rule of thumb – asking is preferable to drawing your own conclusions.
Joe – Women and girls shouldn’t be allowed to post on Frum blogs, like YWN CR!
“If you are trying to understand something, a good rule of thumb – asking is preferable to drawing your own conclusions.”
I didn’t draw my own conclusions – I wrote that I “guessed” not that I “assumed”. I didn’t ask because it didn’t matter if that was your concern or not.
My point was two-fold:
1. As I recall (I can’t find the thread now), I was a bit concerned that the poster had somewhat of a “taana” against you for your comment. Even though it seemed like a relatively small “taana”, I wanted to point out to them a possible reason for your concern so that they shouldn’t have any “taana” against you.
2. When I was considering what the hesitations could be for such a post, it occurred to me that there may be readers who think that this is how ultra-Orthodox people date. I had a real reason for this concern based on some things that I came across online recently. As I wrote in that thread as well as this one, I wanted to make sure that any readers reading the thread did not think that this was the norm. So whether or not this was in fact your concern was irrelevant.
Well based on that ZD was right on target.
ZD, your posts about the ‘sell’ were well stated!
Health – maybe it’s the men and boys who shouldn’t be allowed to post so there would be no tznius problem.
I didnt make the Satire post, someone else did.
I dont think I had anything to do with it.
Lastly I dont care what anyone here thinks of me, I have a thicker skin, you have to have one on the internet
LU -“Health – maybe it’s the men and boys who shouldn’t be allowed to post so there would be no tznius problem.”
6 and a half or a dozen – which to pick?
And Btw, it makes sense that the girls should be ousted, not the guys, because as far as I know, there aren’t any female mods!Health,
I think you mean “6 or half a dozen”
As far as I know there aren’t any male mods either.
Mods aren’t people. They don’t have a gender
Mod 29 – lol, based on that ZD was completely off-target!!
Was that a typo or did you really not understand something I wrote??!! If you really had trouble understanding what I wrote, I would advise you to follow your own advice: “If you are trying to understand something, a good rule of thumb – asking is preferable to drawing your own conclusions.”
Wow, no need to be so rude.
I don’t speak for others or decide what they meant so my advice does not apply.
I said that based on your explanation above, ZD was on target. It was neither a typo nor a misunderstanding. Feel free to re-read both of your posts and the questions preceeding them.ZD: “Lastly I dont care what anyone here thinks of me, I have a thicker skin, you have to have one on the internet”
I’m not sure what this was in response to. I don’t think I or anyone else here implied that they thought badly of you in any way. Did you think that something I wrote was a criticism of you?
I’m glad you have thick skin. It’s true that you need one on the internet -at least in the CR- that’s the only site I’ve ever posted on. I need to learn from you in that regard – you made a good point about that in another thread.
The only mod that I know of that has mentioned a gender is 29 and she said that she was female.
Have any other mods mentioned a gender to you?
I think that there are probably mods from both genders, but I would venture to guess that there may be more female ones.
In any case, if there are mods of both genders, it seems to me that it’s preferable to have male mods with female posters than the other way around. Could be “שררה” issues here.
(don’t worry – I’m half-joking. The half that’s joking is that I don’t think it’s assur; the half that’s not is that I would think that given the choice, that way is in fact preferable).
Oh, and I never said I was female, that was another assumption made from a joke in a 20 questions thread.
More than once I’ve seen people here assume that all mods are male for some reason.
@Joseph,
“Halachas are, effectively, legislated. Thus, keeping kosher and keeping tznius is legislated.”
Kashruss is effectively legislated by establishments having certification. How should tznius be legislated? You want a vaad tznius who goes around intimidating people?There’s nothing you can do.
You can do about tznius violations the same thing you can do about kashrus violations.
If someone does not want to follow the Vaad Tzniut , they can just move someplace else to a place where people are not sympathetic at all to the Vaad Tnziut
You can keep stores Kosher, but you cant force people to eat there.
If someone from Borough Park wants to go a McDonalds in Manhattan, there is no way to stop them
Tznius violators are similar to people who sell non-kosher food to the community as kosher. Both are machsil es harabim.
29 – you also said it another time recently and in both cases it didn’t sound like a joke. In the 20 questions thread, you said, “that’s what I get for playing with boys”. Why would you say that if you are a boy/man? Unless you wanted people to think you’re a female, but that’s an odd way to do so. And if you wanted people to think you’re female, why would you have said anything here? It’s much more likely that if you are trying to throw people off your track, you are doing so here.
RY – until 29 said she was female, I probably thought so too. Now I’ve decided that it’s more likely that more of them are female than male. I think that 25 is probably female, although you can never know for sure. And I think that 100 is male, although again, I can’t be sure. And I don’t know any others.
Throwing people off my track? What track? I was pointing out that it wasn’t something I said but something you inferred. The comment was made because after a bunch of random answers showjoe picked the grim reaper, which no girl would have chosen.
Most people who don’t keep kosher did not grow up Frum and can’t be expected to keep kosher unless they are “mekareved” first, since they don’t really understand why they should keep kosher in the first place.
Regarding tznius, we are talking about people who know that they are supposed to keep hilchos tznius, they have been taught it many times, and they do keep the other halachos so it should be expected of them (at least in theory) to keep tznius. Obviously, there must be a reason why they are finding it hard to do so, and I don’t think that intimidation is the answer; I am just pointing out the difference between the two.
Also, as Joseph pointed out, when it comes to tznius, you are being machshil others.
However, that still does not help us figure out how to enforce it. Apparently people are having a hard time keeping it, and one must figure out the best way to get them to do so.
Intimidation is not likely to work.
Why assume their gender at all, especially with close to zero clues?
Seriously, why does it matter what gender 29 or anyone mod or for that matter anyone else is.
This is an anoynous forum
Cant we go back to arguing if Joseph can place Scarlet Letters on Tzniut offenderes
Thanks, both of you.
@joseph You are lost. Tznius and kosher are two opposite things. How would you legislate tznius?
Tznius and kosher are both halachas from Hashem that we are equally obligated to follow our Torah obligations on.
Lakewhut – How are they opposites? And why call someone lost just because you disagree with him?
“Both are machsil es harabim.”
A red herring. Nobody debates this point. What is being discussed is if browbeating someone to obeserve a halacha because they are a michsol to others is the proper way to teach someone about anything. Obviously, you believe the answer is yes.
“Cant we go back to arguing if Joseph can place Scarlet Letters on Tzniut offenderes”
It is clear from his many posts that joseph places scarlet letters on anyone who disagrees with him. I believe I have 8 more letters and I will have been “placed” with an entire scarlet alphabet.
“Tznius and kosher are both halachas from Hashem that we are equally obligated to follow our Torah obligations on.”
And this is the message that needs to be taught. A healthy level of yiras shamayim, in my opinion, is how someone will achieve this. Browbeating someone to follow a halacha because lack of observance is a nichshol to others, is a stupid tactic, in my opinion. Then again, my opinion only matters when it comes to my wife and daughter. Someone elses wife and daughter if for him to determine the best course of action.
Is someone else’s family and children not your responsibility if they start sneaking into McDonald’s when they think no one notices?
Kol Yisroel Areivem Zeh Lazeh
Joseph
How about making Scarlet Z’s and forcing anyone not dressed Tniut to wear one
LU -“Now I’ve decided that it’s more likely that more of them are female than male.”
And I decided that there’s no such thing as a female mod!
Maybe PBA, but I don’t know if s/he’s in the administration.So in the name of Tznius, you & other girls/women should stop posting here!
I don’t see how your decisions about the mods’ gender affect their actual gender.
Would you ignore it if you saw you neighbor’s kid snorkeling drugs in a deserted area?
Damaging one’s neshama and olam habaha is worse than damaging one’s body. If you’d do something about someone doing the latter, surely you should do something about someone doing the former.
If I saw my neighbor’s kid snorkeling drugs, my reaction would be the same as if I saw my neighbor’s kid snorkeling plastic dinosaurs.
Joseph, damaging one’s body IS destroying their Olam Habah, as there is a mitzvah to take proper care of your body.
Where does the Torah give a mitzvah to not do unhealthy things?
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