Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › How should one protest against shmoozers during davening?
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October 14, 2012 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #605200jewishnessParticipant
Is there any way to get members of a shul to stop talking during davening, laining, etc?
I davened in a shul this past shabbos where there was a considerate amount of shmoozing (by a few people, most were serious) and no one said a word in protest. I am sure there are plenty of people who would like to say something but are uncomfortable opening their mouths or are mind-your-own-business types.
The scary part is that the Rav has the most responsibility of all yet he also was busy minding his own business! Is that not one of the responsibilities of a Rav which he is paid for?
What should a caring Jew do who finds himself in such a situation? Walk out? Protest? mind his own business? pray that they stop? hand motions? sign language? curse? spit? dance?
October 14, 2012 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #901810bubkaParticipantTell the unrelenting yakkers “sheigetz aross”.
October 15, 2012 11:43 am at 11:43 am #901811abcd2ParticipantThe gentle approach is always the best. With a smile just gently say that you are having a problem concentrating or explain that as you have so many distractions during the week that when you get to shule on Shabbos it is really your only restful time to communicate with Hashem.
Whomever you speak to already knows about assur lidaber bishas hatefilla. I have been to shules and people scream SHaa, NU or quiet or give loud claps. They make just as much a disturbance as the people talking, come off as meddlesome even though they are in the right, and nobody really listens. Eventually calm demeanor wins over the respect of others and when people see you, people will know that you are someone that does not like talking during Davening. They will automatically clam up when they see you and perhaps change their own behavior from your example.
B) I ask you to consider your opening paragraphs in describing the situation you faced in Shule.
” davened in a certain shule this past shabbos.” Does that mean you were a visitor? You also wrote “The scary part is that the Rav ….?”
It seems to me that you were a guest.If so it is basically impossible to judge a Rav or the people that Daven there. Even if you are a regular perhaps the Rav is working behind the scenes.
Don’t get me wrong whether a guest or a regular you are entitled to a normal Davening, but perhaps the Rabbi is working on this Mida with his shule and you dont know about it? And perhaps even some of the perpetrators themselves are trying very hard not to talk.
I have been a guest by family, friends, neighbors… on Shabbos.Sometimes the same kids act out repeatedly in the same manner,and you wonder why the parents are not disciplining differently.(similar to the Rabbi this is a main function of their job) but of course we don’t fully know what is going on behind the scenes based on our short visit.As an outsider looking in it is not always possible to get a clear picture.
In some extreme examples I know of two people with short term memory issues, one with a mild social anxiety disorder,and a few people with major tzaros that just want to blow off steam to their friends. (these are people whom if you saw them on the surface in a million years you would never suspect such things are going on)These people truly struggle with keeping quiet in shule and it is a real nisayon. It is very hard to know how others are truly working hard on their midos.
May Hashem see that we are truly Amech Kulam Tzaddikim in what other nation in this day and age would you have people complaining and working on a Mida about talking in the presence of a G-d that can’t be tangibly seen or heard?
Tizku Limtzvos!
October 15, 2012 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #901812apushatayidParticipantDaven louder.
October 15, 2012 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #901813takahmamashParticipantIn one shule were I regularly davened, the talking around me was terrible. I asked the Rav if I should try to shush the talkers, and he told me it was better to move my seat “since the talkers won’t pay attention to you anyway.”
October 15, 2012 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #901814WolfishMusingsParticipantThe one time I said something to someone about it, I immediately regretted it. As a result, I don’t protest anymore… I just sit and simmer.
The Wolf
October 15, 2012 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #901815WolfishMusings: How did he respond that caused you to regret asking him to quiet down?
October 15, 2012 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #901816WolfishMusingsParticipantHe was fine about it. Nonetheless, I still felt terrible about the whole thing.
The Wolf
October 15, 2012 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #901817ToiParticipanttake off your belt and wack him
October 16, 2012 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #901818WIYMemberYou need to have the right personality to pull this off: give him a look like he is a martian that just landed his UFO in shul while motioning with your hand to your mouth and making a why hand motion that it should be apparent that you are asking him how on earth can he talk in shul. However this will only work on occassional talkers not on “hardened” talkers who have been doing it for years and likely dont give a darn about Davening altogether and are just there to “hock.”
October 16, 2012 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #901819apushatayidParticipantWhen I was a kid, there was an older man in shul that had a business card that said (am transliterating into english) “anshuldik, nish mit mir, ich redt nit bay em davening” in yiddish and on the reverse in english it said “please respect the sanctity of the synagogue and refrain from idle talk while inside”, and he would give it to anyone who tried to talk to him during davening.
October 16, 2012 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #901820jewishnessParticipantSadly the phenomenon of a few members shmoozing in shul is not uncommon. Also, there are rabbanim who are not eager to stir up trouble so they keep quite.
The real way is that when a Rav sees that guys are chatting he should motion to the chazzan to stop and everyone will wait until the lowlifes clamp up. If its done a enough times, eventually the shmoozers will get the feeling that they are not welcome and they will either shut it up or change shuls.
October 16, 2012 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #901821YehudahTzviParticipantI have the following printed up on a piece of a paper that I carry in my talis bag:
“If one will talk in Shul, it is better for him/her to not come in the first place. (Kaf HaChaim Siman 151:8 and Chida in Sefer Pesach Einayim) IF YOU NEED TO TALK, PLEASE STEP OUTSIDE THE SHUL.”
October 16, 2012 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #901822golferParticipantShoot them.
Halacha lemaaseh, jewishness, not much you can do. The real shmoozers will resent your interference & continue talking. classic aveirah goreres aveirah leading to possible lashon hara, rechilus, leitzanus, onaas devarim, the list goes on. Maintaining decorum in a shul begins with general punctuality, cleanliness, etc and begins with the Rav.
October 17, 2012 12:10 am at 12:10 am #901823YehudahTzviParticipantMy pride in our shul came when a bunch of new baaleibatim were shmoozing during Shemona Esrei on Rosh Hashanah eve. It was important, though. They were discussing the best way to get to Woodland Hills.
October 17, 2012 12:28 am at 12:28 am #901824CRuzerParticipantapushutayid, that’s a nice story, but it can only be done by certain people. If you’re 75 years old, and the people talking are in their 30’s, then asking them to please stop would be very helpful. If you’re 18…not so much.
I think age is the deciding factor here. Sometimes there’s just nothing you can do.
October 17, 2012 12:33 am at 12:33 am #901825monseeyidParticipant“Maintaining decorum in a shul begins with general punctuality, cleanliness, etc and begins with the Rav”… Couldn’t have said it better.
October 17, 2012 12:35 am at 12:35 am #901826WIYMemberjewishness
There really isnt much that a Rav can do. You expect him to stop the shliach tzibbur every other minute? And doesnt the Rav need to Daven and have kavvanah too?
I just wish the shmoozers went out into the hallway. At least that way they dont disturb everyone who is trying to Daven like a mentsch.
October 17, 2012 4:03 am at 4:03 am #901827ZeesKiteParticipantThere’s a sign I saw in the hallway of a shul: ??? ???? ???????, something to the effect of – if you gotta do it, do it here.
October 17, 2012 6:47 am at 6:47 am #901828takahmamashParticipantThe one time I said something to someone about it, I immediately regretted it. As a result, I don’t protest anymore… I just sit and simmer.
Back in my brash teenage days, I actually went over to an older gentleman in shule who sat in the midst of a talking group. I asked him, respectfully, if he could stop talking. He then gave the whole shtick, saying I was being chutzpadik, yada yada yada. Then he asked me why I singled him out from the group, and I said, “You have smicha, you know better.”
At mincha that afternoon he came over to me and apologized, telling me I was right, and that he would work on not talking during davening.
October 17, 2012 8:29 am at 8:29 am #901829Geordie613ParticipantSeen in a shul in London:
“If you come to shul to talk, where do you go to daven?”
October 17, 2012 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #901830WIYMemberI wonder what would happen if shuls appointed a Gabbai to go around tasering people who talk…
October 17, 2012 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #901831jewishnessParticipantShuls ought to appoint a Gabbai to go around harassing and embarrassing people that don’t keep their trap shut when they are supposed to. Or the Rabbi should stop prayers when the trap doors swing open.
Imagine you are sitting in the docket by a court case schmoozing it out with the guy next to you. What will the judge do? Ignore you? No way! He will stop the court proceedings stare you in the face and say either you keep quite or you are expelled from the court room. If you ignore him they will escort you out. Why is a shul different for crying out loud?
October 17, 2012 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #901832YehudahTzviParticipantMy father Z”L would call those old men who used to shush everyone the “Heysedandah” As in “Hey, sit down there!”
October 18, 2012 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #901833miritchkaMemberAs apushatayid so simply posted: daven louder.
October 18, 2012 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #901834WolfishMusingsParticipantAs apushatayid so simply posted: daven louder.
That has the problem of being inconsiderate to other people who are davening nearby.
The solution to talking in shul isn’t to disturb other non-talkers.
The Wolf
October 18, 2012 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #901835americaisoverParticipantu shouldnt u should be dan lekaf zechus and say wow these people wish to daven and hope to mashpai from the others. you are not G-d to judge.
October 18, 2012 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #901836Ragachovers AssistantMemberLoudly!
October 18, 2012 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #901837vochindikMember“daven louder.”
That has the problem of being inconsiderate to other people who are davening nearby.
No it doesn’t. Davening loud is a positive attribute that everyone should be encouraged to do.
I’ve been to shuls where everyone is, essentially, screaming out davening. It is a beautiful site to behold.
October 18, 2012 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #901838welldressed007Participantor try the following:
Ain le’hispalel be’sha’as hadibur!!!!!
make light of it to help when you ‘highlight’ it, it works much better.
October 18, 2012 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #901839WolfishMusingsParticipantNo it doesn’t. Davening loud is a positive attribute that everyone should be encouraged to do.
No, it should not. If you daven very loud, you very well could end up disturbing other people’s davening, whether you feel that it’s proper or not.
The Wolf
October 18, 2012 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #901840Rav TuvParticipantI learned somewhere that davening very loud makes one m’k’tanei ha’amana. As if HKB”H can’t hear unless he yells.
October 18, 2012 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #901841WIYMembermusser zoger
“I learned somewhere that davening very loud makes one m’k’tanei ha’amana. As if HKB”H can’t hear unless he yells.”
Only by Shemonah esrei.
October 18, 2012 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #901842kingdavidParticipantREPLY TO
“I learned somewhere that davening very loud makes one m’k’tanei ha’amana. As if HKB”H can’t hear unless he yells.”
THAT ONLY APPLIES TO SHEMONEH ESREI
October 19, 2012 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #901843jewishnessParticipantgood idea. when folks shmooze during prayers pray LOUDLY really close to them till they feel real weird.
October 21, 2012 12:47 am at 12:47 am #901844jewishnessParticipantThis week was another shmoozer……I hope I do not get violent!
October 21, 2012 1:53 am at 1:53 am #901845How about the fellows who get upset at your davening… because it is interrupting their conversation?
October 21, 2012 3:57 am at 3:57 am #901846WIYMemberjewishness
Why dont you walk over to them and daven really loudly so they get the message. See what happens and let us know.
October 21, 2012 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #901847Think firstMemberJewishness- there are different types of shmuzers and the way to deal with them varies. There are those that will talk only until asked to to stop and they really don’t want to make a scene either so when asked they stop They will.There’s another type that I call the “addicted shmuzer” usually it’s someone who doesn’t have an appreciation for davening, kedushas beis medrash and authority in general. This addicted shmuzer needs to feel something when he come to shul, he doesn’t get that feeling from davening so he get his fix from the only way he knows how to; shmuz, hock, looking at others and taking about anything. I mean it’s a sight to see! There’s a shul in Lakewood where I daven from time to time and this type of shmuzer “shmuzes” there I can’t say he davens there. I mean he’ll even shmuz with children! Any type of shmuzing stimulation is alright for him. Everytime I see it my blood boils. The Rav seems to ignore it maybe because this guy pays his salary and it’s a tough spot for him. Enough ranting, if your shmuzer is the second guy I destribed, theres nothing you can do besides kick him out of the shul. It won’t change. Nada. He needs his fix.
October 22, 2012 1:01 am at 1:01 am #901848dhl144MemberOne should worry about himself and take the precious time to realize that he/she is not perfect and niether is any1 else and everyone should work on perfecting themselves not perfecting everyone else around them…Then everyone will get far…That’ll be the day…WHenever I go into a daze and realize that I was thinking bad about a person that i noticed doing somthing wrong while I was apaceing out…I try to tell myself that I am not perfect either…Then if I still feel like thinking about the person I was thinkking bad about I try to think good about them…Or i try thinking of things I must perfect in my own character…Try it, good luck, All the best.
October 22, 2012 1:30 am at 1:30 am #901849vochindikMemberdhl144: Talking during davening is a crime against everyone else in shul being disturbed. It isn’t just a person sinning that only affects himself.
October 22, 2012 2:11 am at 2:11 am #901850dhl144Membervochindik:most ppl that are busy shhhhhh-shhhhhing other ppl are too busy worrying about everyone else thats talking and they are forgetting that they are supposed to be davening and they are too busy trying to fix the rest of the world if they would realize their own issues enough then they would be able to be so focused on their own prayers that the talking wouldnt matter tp them and they’d learn to tolerate
October 22, 2012 2:55 am at 2:55 am #901851YehudahTzviParticipantdhl144: Could not disagree with you more. From the Halacha a Day website:
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One who talks during Chazaras HaShatz is a sinner, and this sin is too great for any individual to bear.
If one will talk in Shul, it is better for him/her to not come in the first place. (Kaf HaChaim Siman 151:8 and Chida in Sefer Pesach Einayim)
Pretty clear that others talking does affect EVERYONE in the shul.
October 22, 2012 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #901852miritchkaMemberWolfishMusings: I didnt think of it that way. I meant that it would be directed at the talkers and not disturb others. If the talkers are behind you, walk behind the talkers and raise your voice a bit so that your voice travels into their conversation and they would hopefully get the hint.
October 22, 2012 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #901853WolfishMusingsParticipantWolfishMusings: I didnt think of it that way. I meant that it would be directed at the talkers and not disturb others. If the talkers are behind you, walk behind the talkers and raise your voice a bit so that your voice travels into their conversation and they would hopefully get the hint.
If you’re not going to disturb other daveners in your protest, I suppose it’s okay.
But don’t count on me to do it. As I mentioned above, I no longer protest such things, but rather just sit and simmer about it.
The Wolf
October 31, 2012 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #901854Geordie613ParticipantYehudahTzvi
Wow, My father also says “heysedande”!!
November 1, 2012 2:01 am at 2:01 am #901855brotherofursParticipantI would ask the Rav if he can give an inspiring class about it that might get people thinking..
November 1, 2012 2:04 am at 2:04 am #901856brotherofursParticipantwow abcd2 i liked what you posted!
November 30, 2019 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1806008knaidlachParticipantif you will tell those who are talking, in shul while they are talking, chances are that they will answer back: mind your own business; who are you to tell me: etc. etc. the best way would be to pick up a phone during the week, when you are relaxed, and the other party is not in middle of talking in shul, and tell them what inpact his talking has on yourself. you came to shul to daven and hear krias hatorah and how its disturbing you etc. dont give them mussar, just focus on yourself. so 1) call during the week. 2) focus on yourself. try it out and let us know how it went. HATZLACHA RABBA.,
November 30, 2019 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1806007Reb EliezerParticipantMight get some ideas from: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/talking-in-shul-2
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