How Much Below the Knee Should a Skirt be?

Can someone please explain the reason why a girl might be struggling to dress tznius?

When looking to buy a skirt or any article of clothing really, just remember “ATTRACTIVE NOT ATTRACTING”! A skirt in truth could be a foot below the knee and not be tznius because of the color or how it fits! Just remember you should look presentable, you are representing Hashem, dont dress to call attention!

@avhaben She might see her friends doing it and in all honesty feels that if they do then she can. I am not defending it but think of a teenage girl, and how hard it is to fit in, when she sees others doing something (ex. short skirts) then she cant see the wrong! Or in simple honesty she doesnt feel that it will make a diffrence! I have talked to some teen girls and tey simply ask” why and how would a man be attracive to my dried elbow/knee? What looks nice about them?”

avhaben: could you explain why you don’t learn torah every second of spare time you have?

You have an excuse for not being mekayaim the mitzvah of vehigasah bo yomum valeila. And girls have excuses for needing to wear too short skirts? Don’t you see what I’m trying to tell you?

The same way the yetzer harah gets men away from learning torah (their main mitzvah): Too tired, stressed out, other things to take care of…

The same yetzer harah will find and excuse for girls to be oiver on their main mitzva = tznius: don’t tell me what to do, looks better, no one will notice, men shouldn’t look at me…

“Can someone please explain the reason why a girl might be struggling to dress tznius?”

I cannot speak for other women, but personally here’s why I struggle:

#1-I am grateful for the side benefits that Tznius affords every Jewish woman aside from the schar mitzvah. Really. But the fact is that appreciating Tznius doesn’t mean that I appreciate the standards that halacha demands of me.

It takes a lot of effort and honest self evaluation to get to a point where you truly appreciate those standards. Until then, you remind yourself every day that your job is to make Hashem proud even when you don’t (yet) appreciate them. And you tell yourself that YOUR standards shouldn’t matter, only Hashem’s do. Even if many people dress worse than you.

#2-I don’t dress to attract attention of others. I don’t dress to impress friends. But I am still a girl who will stop and stare at the pretty flat in the display window. I will critque perfumes with my friends for fun and Sephora is my personal disneyland. And yes, I can see a pretty blue dress and know it’s too short & tight for me, but it is still a pretty blue dress.

I understand that to the opposite gender this dress will turn me into more of a physical object than I’d like to be. But it’s still pretty! The same thing goes for the skirts that hit mid-knee. It’s as wrong as anything, but you’re not gonna get me to say that the look isn’t simply adorable (on the right person…).

So even when you’re willing to follow the halachos perfectly, it’s hard every time you see a cute short skirt or much-too-tight-but-so-so-pretty dress. It’ll never make me less of a fashion enthusiast.

I hope that one day I will be strong enough to overcome those challenges despite the difficulty. Until then, I struggle.

mytake, well said, but why does the community patronize the shops that sell this stuff. we dont buy from non kosher butcher stores, why buy from non kosher dress stores

Stores sell what people want to buy.

I believe the issue with Tznius amongst today’s youth and adult alike, stems from a more fundamental issue, that people have lost the appreciation as to the point of Tznius, and have lost sight of why living B’Derech Hashem is so important.

Educators and parents nowadays explain away Tznius with reasons such as so as not to be too attractive to the men, or not to be too haughty or involved in your image. Although these are valid points, but they can easily be disregarded legitimately with arguments and perhaps rationalizations.

The Mechanchim should spend time focusing on and stressing the power of the female body and its preciousness, and the power it gives a woman if she wields its power and keeps it special and refined. In the same way a person does not flaunt his precious diamonds in the street, or invite random people off the street into their home, and certainly not the bedrooms, and certainly not the master bathroom, because all of these things would diminish the inherent personal value of the object owned.. The home or the diamond only costs a set monetary price, but the female body is priceless and infinitely more powerful than money. If a woman realizes this deeply and recognizes the power she has by keeping her most valuable possession to herself, there is no doubt that she will instinctively dress in a more refined, Tzniusdik fashion, the degree of which will only increase as time goes on, and the struggle will only become smaller.

@twinklestar oh…actually the first post was a general post to the actual forum, not as a anwser ! enjoy cleaning for Peseach:)

Just remember: when you are testing your skirt when you are sitting, don’t pull it down a lot before you sit because that’s just not honest. Just sit down as you always do. That makes sure it’s completely tzniusdik – yes, even if it’s 3.5 inches below the knee. It might be just fine. I once had a skirt that was 2 inches below the knee but it was still tzniusdik (until I grew of course ;)).

Halacha defines what has to be covered.

Honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a skirt that if it literally doesn’t almost reach the ankles, that was long enough to cover the knees and above when a girl is getting out of (or into) a car. Anything shorter than reaching to the borders of the ankles will expose above the knees when getting out or into a car.

Perhaps sushe tested it herself. In any event, it is relevant to know whether its a problem so it should be long enough.

I said almost to the ankles. There’s almost simply no way a skirt that is any less than 4 inches below the knee will not expose above the knee when getting out of (or into) a car. If it is less than 4″ below, it will rise when getting in/out a car, exposing above the knee.

Umm, yeah, I know the “trick”. Except, as any girl knows, it fails more times than it works. Either due to omission or commission. Often due to forgetting to employ the “trick”. Other times due to the “trick” suffering a technical failure.

Which means only a skirt that is long enough to not leave exposed the upper knees when entering or exiting a vehicle, without any “tricks”, is tznius.

It is not a hiddur. It is strict halacha. A girls upper knee *must always* be covered. Always includes when entering or exiting a motor vehicle, a very common occurance. Someone whose skirt fails to *always* keep above her knee covered when getting in and out of a car (a public area/on the street), is clearly breaching halacha and commiting an aveira.

Yes, must always. As in always always. We are talking about in the public arena. As in entering or exiting a vehicle on the street. No exceptions. Halacha clearly requires the upper leg to *always* be covered in public. We are not discussing in the privacy of ones home.

I find that if the skirt has stretch in the fabric it’s more flexible and covers the knee when sitting. Of course we have to be careful it shouldn’t be too fitted

I havent read through the whole thread, but Im wondering where the undebatable source is in the Torah, for covering knees, collarbone and elbows?

Translation: You will not find a verse in Tanach that says so,

but neither will you find one for most of the body.

The halachos of tznius are derived from the halachos of not saying

d’varim shebikdusha (brachos, tefilla, Torah) in the presence

of indecent exposure, and they include those parts of the body.

Does an honest person get a free pass for pritzus?

Precisely.

“Important contemporary poskim” in consultation with “experts” came to a vague factual conclusion? Ok. Imho everyone is free to come to their own factual conclusions about their own legs. Now where’s the halacha that says that “covered in any position” is the appropriate measure?

“Now where’s the halacha that says that “covered in any position” is the appropriate measure?”

Very strange question. That’s like asking “Now where’s the halacha that says that “all ingredients are kosher” is the appropriate determination of kashrus?” For something to be kosher, all the ingredients must be kosher. You can’t say, well, 11 out of the 12 ingredients are kosher so we’ll certify the product as kosher.

If something has to be covered, obviously it must be covered at all times. Why would there be an exception for when its a hot day or a windy day or walking up a staircase or sitting down? If it can be uncovered when sitting down why must it be covered when standing or walking? If something has to be covered, obviously it means always covered, not covered 85% of the time.