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WB95:
1) Exactly what makes you interested in these girls (that aren’t interested in you)?
2) Isn’t there a reasonable consideration that someone who moved from one hashkafic practice to another is more likely to change hashkafic practices again in the future than someone who remained in the same hashkafic practice all his life? If so, there’s a legitimate reason to prefer someone who has been on the same hashkafic practice as oneself all their life.
@workinbochur
You are very very young…so I will share with you two things with you that I have instilled in my children and that I sincerely hope you carry eith you and learn from.
1. “Lashon” is paramount. Dont say something you dont mean. Ever. So THINK before you speak. You used verbiage in your original post, whether you meant it or not, used wording you now regret, it does not matter, you still used the word “allowed”. And thatcword, with respect to a decision about dating or marriage shoukd be carefully thought out and considered.
ALWAYS think before you speak, and especially before you type, post or “submit” button.Abd two, and what I remind my daughter especially of, is this: if you want to marry a person of good strong character, then YOU also have to have good strong character.
And finally, three is thst NO MATTER who a person is, where they come from/grew up, what their “yichus: is that rehardless of who their family is, what race etc., the ONLY thing that matters is if that person is a God Fearing MENTCH. Without mentchlichkeit, even the wealthiest person n.v has NOTHING.
Why do i tell you this specifivally? Because your posts, all of them on this thread, have lacked thought snd mentchlichkeit. You are defensive and closed off to understanding and comprehending what it isvthat others are telling you.
Most of all, i genuinely believe that you posted this to irritate and rile people up, and i believe you are quite disingenuous.Please forgive my typos, I was on my phone instead of my laptop (as per usual) and my eyesight is not as it used to be.
Coming more from a MO hashkafah, I obviously do not believe it makes sense for young women considering marriage to dismiss bochurim out of hand because they grew in a MO household. However what I do find obnoxious is the attitude that young women should not be allowed to make those types of decisions, if that is there preference just as I would respect the decision of a young woman who refused to date any bochurim who were “full time learners” and had no college degree or interest in pursuing a good paying job. Some of the readers here are having a very difficult time accepting the fact that frum young women increasingly are making their OWN decisions about their lives, marriage and family and are no longer willing to obediently accept “directions” from family/friends/teachers etc. Get over it…..those days are fortunately gone (unless, of course, you are the daughter of one of our resident mycogonistic trolls).
WB95: You ignored my Point # “2)” above.
Also, why do you refuse to marry a girl who aspires to be a stay-at-home mom?
Obviously, girls from Yeshivish homes prefer boys who are from Yeshivish homes. That doesn’t mean that boys from more-modern homes are suffering from a crisis. It merely means that they should try to marry someone who ALSO comes from a similar background, or should date girls who are a bit older and are therefore forced to settle. Why should a girl settle when she is still in her young twenties? Does family background mean nothing? Does the fact that you might flip back mean nothing? Does the fact that you were subjected to less-than-optimally-kosher food for decades mean nothing? Does the fact that many flip-outs display a certain rebelliousness or emotional instability mean nothing (I’m very happy that you flipped out, but a certain percentage of them flipped-out due to emotional instabilities)? They all mean a lot, and they scare off many girls, who are at a point in their lives who aren’t willing to settle yet. I mean, she is certainly entitled to do so, but I don’t see the reason to pressure her to do so or to blame her for not willing to do so at this early stage of the game.
I haven’t read through the whole thread so I don’t know if this question has been asked.
Why doesn’t the OP marry a girl who comes from a LWMO home but now shares his hashkofos?
@workingbuchor95
You are openly admitting that you are planning on going into a marriage where you won’t know if the poor girl who would marry you, is 100% in line with your hashkafos, you would divorce her. Are you SERIOUS??? In the Yeshivish velt, the couple dates for the long period of all of two weeks or so, so there is really no possible wa y to know everything about your potential spouse… and you are ALREADY planning a divorce? What girl or parents in her/their right mind(s) would go near you??? You don’t go into a marriage planning a divorce! Marriage is very difficult young man! It’s difficult under the best of circumstances, and you are talking about someone who has to be in line with you a thousand percent. Such a thing is never going to happen. You are not marrying a Stepford wife. You are not marrying someone who was raised specifically to marry YOU, you are marrying someone who, believe it or not, thinks, has brains, and who speaks (often for herself). If you want someone who is a million percent in line, marry an Arabic woman in a Burka, because that’s as close as you will get to complete and total blind obedience.
<shaking my head> I truly have sympathy for the girl you end up marrying, and her family… because your expectations are completely unrealistic.Puh Lease -the guy is trolling. He thinks he’s funny. He’s not. Please please don’t give him the pleasure of a response.
I can vouch that the OP is serious. Seriously mistaken but also serious in believing everything he’s writing (as well as in describing his background). He expresses all the same opinions you see here in real life social settings.
DY – the OP doesn’t answer questions, he just keeps rewroting his op. Cute for a 5th grader, no?
“I can vouch that the OP is serious.”
No you can’t
I can.
@syaglchomah
Got it. Thanks.
Dear Workingbachur95,
After reading some of these comments above, some of which I can imagine is hurtful for you, and that I personally relate to this topic given that I am a BT who it took a while to find his match, I wanted to share with you a few of my thoughts and a balanced perspective whereas I feel others may have a hard time relating to your position.
1) Rightly or wrongly, people naturally gravitate to those who they perceive to share similarities with. For example, there is a certain well-known African American radio show host who related that in a prior stint years back as a telemarketer, he would go by a different, more “White” sounding name in order that his target market would be more comfortable to purchasing a product from him. In truth, we see this across different cultural groups, Chinese prefer to bond with other Chinese, African American with African American. The same is true to an extent in the Jewish community. A recent Pew study was released regarding marriage partners of BTs, and they found that 49% of BTs were married to another BT, 32% to FFBs, the remainder unmarried. This is more outstanding given than BTs are such a small subset of the religious Orthodox community. The irony is of course, is that each person created and brought down to this world is so different in terms of physical appearance, outlook, personal experience, etc. Now on the one hand, similarity is important. Sephardim are typically best suited with other Sephardim due to shared minhagim and culture. On the other hand, we see more often than not that when Hashem matches two people together, those two people are often so different from one another. Even if they come from the same community, one spouse might be soft in temperament whereas one might be more forthcoming. Indeed, it is often the shared differences and perspectives that helps us reach our potential.
My point here is twofold. Firstly, unfortunately it is harder for you and I to marry into a different subset of the Jewish community because of natural bias present. While you obviously can’t change (and should be proud of) your past as it has molded you into who you are today (while I assume about you the following but felt the need to state it regardless), it does help to try and “fit the bill” and try to make small changes to fit in with your target hashkafa and community. The area you live, the Shul you attend, the garments you wear, even if it is all superficial to a large extent and all that truly matters is in the heart, but it does make an impact on who you get suggested for a Shidduch.
On the other side of the coin, when you do IYH find your bashert, it should be that your differences help complement one another.
2) I found I had to accept that I was not good fit for everyone. For example, if a bookkeeper for small business is trying to sell their service to a large complex organization, it simply isn’t a good Shidduch. To be fair, some girls truly want to marry a person who is currently learning in Yeshiva. Your username “Workingbachur” seems to connote that you currently work a full-time job, and obviously I wouldn’t expect you to quit your job, but some women are currently looking for a full-time learner which currently isn’t you. I know you said you would be open to taking off time to learn for a few months, but if a girl said she wanted a guy to take off time for 1, maybe 2 years, would you consider such a thing? I know it is a highly personal question.
3) To counter the point above, virtually everyone has to find at some point a type of profession, be it within Chinuch, a lawyer, doctor, etc. So the theoretical positive is that a “hard-held Shita” that a person holds when they are 20 (For example, to marry the “perfect” Yeshiva bachur who never misses Seder, or to marry someone who is 3rd generation MO), would hopefully adjust the older they become, at 25, at 30, and onwards.
Unfortunately as we know, it is not always true. But lets say you were turned down by a woman who was 25 years old because perhaps your mother for instance, who is otherwise a lovely and kind person, may not fully cover her hair, and that would somehow affect your marriage and or future upbringing of your children (unlikely at best), and you who is a Yiras Shamayim and someone who dedicates himself to learning, do you REALLY want to spend the rest of your life with someone who may be narrow-minded. You wouldn’t be happy with that person in the first place, so thank Hashem that you were turned down from that encounter.
4) If a certain Shadchan won’t set you up with a BY girl, find one who will. While I found it was important to be appreciative of Shadchans as it is a truly thankless job, even if they couldn’t suggest anyone for me, at the end of the day it is part of our hishtadlus to try and find the right one for us! Don’t discard other avenues for finding the right person for yourself – whether it be online (might not attract Yeshivish, but certainly some wonderful people available) or singles events / Shabbatons, where you are judged on your own merits from the outset before someone looks at a piece of paper, it is certainly part of our Avodah to put our name out there.
5) As a side note, I think it is utter nonsense to suggest that if you have made a conscious decision to become more Yeshivish, that you might come to drift away in the future. As you are someone who made a change in his life, which I can imagine had its own challenges associated with it, and has stuck through with it, I can assume your worldview is grounded from the combination of life experience and personal growth.
6) Lets face it, we have a natural tendency to want to label ourselves and to categorize different types of people, MO, Yeshivish, etc. Our mind naturally categorizes and compartmentalizes different thoughts and ideas. For example, when we see a buffet of lunch menu items before us, we categorize the items into solids and liquids, American style dishes and Chinese food, etc.
Of course it is inappropriate to label people, when we are so diverse in thought and action, but we do it anyways. The reality is that you can’t really avoid the categorization as someone who comes from a left-wing MO family, but at the end of the day, even though you’ll have to work harder than others to marry the right one for you, but point #7 rings true.
7) At the end of the day, we always have to remember Hashem is in control. All we can do, is become the person that we wish to marry, to actively work on our middos, improve in our learning, etc. in order that we can be zocheh for the right person for us. While at the end of the day, unfortunately it is simply more difficult to move towards dating BY women due to cultural differences, perhaps a more insular nature to the community, finding a good Shadchan for you, but if that is what Hashem wants for you, then at that time there is nothing that will stop Hashem from sending her to you if you become the person you are supposed to be.
Wishing you a wonderful shavua, and IYH you should be sent the right person at the right time and at that time you will know the wait was worth it.
Alefbeit- that was a great post and i am sure it will bring intelligent responses. Just to clarify, nobody was denying this issue being real and worthy of discussion, the “hurtful comments” were directed at his attempt at humor by parody
what kind of stupid question is that? Why is it so important to you to point out that there are Yeshivish boys who are not who they should be. And what does this have to do with this? Do you want to have a mature conversation about something or are you stuck on wanting to bag a BY girl to prove yourself to some imaginary audience?
Either grow up and have a mature conversation or move on. Stop talking down on others.”
I am not fixating on any girl.
The shadchanim told me that the girls would rather marry closet apikorsim and then simply divorce them, ””nobody ever said that. and I hope nobody here is stupid enough to believe the garbage you are trying to spread about people who want to live their lives the way they chose instead of your way.
so change your values.
Just a couple points before I tune out of this forum post:
“I would be much happier in a marriage to a girl who would constantly scream at me for not having been born Yeshivish as opposed to being married to a more open-minded girl who would give me a hard time for being too machmir on many inyanim.”
Why would you want either of those? Wouldn’t you prefer to be with someone who takes pride in your background and how it led you to who you have become today? Don’t you want someone who will respect you as opposed to someone who looks down at your background, which reams of arrogance as almost no one has a perfect background.
Also, what does being open-minded have to do with being too machmir? Technically if you are open-minded, that would connote that you would be open to the idea that someone has a more stringent view on halacha than yourself (that opposite also being true, which I think is what you meant).
Don’t you think there are better ways to assert our individuality is by being more machmir than our fellow? If it helps you with your Avodas Hashem, then by all means. But being machmir for the sake of being machmir isn’t a healthy approach for growth. Since this is a deeply personal question for each person, I’ll leave it at that.
“The shadchanim told me that the girls would rather marry closet apikorsim and then simply divorce them, ”
while bochurim like myself or my roommates whom are considered “100% Leshem Shamayim” are טמאים for not being born Yeshivish…”I think it is inappropriate to look down on a small subset of the religious Jewish community who experience issues with their own system of belief,, and isn’t really particularly relevant to this forum post.
Our job is to focus on the factors we can control, our kavanah in davening, learning a seder, improving our middos, etc. Provided we do our hishtadlus (Unfortunately you will have to do more than someone who grew up Yeshivish because you are a bit different, and you should celebrate your differences, even if it makes dating more challenging for you), Hashem will send us the proper person for us based on who we are. You can be certain that whoever you marry certainly will not consider you Tamei when you meet her.
As a final point, do you know for sure that a BY girl is ultimately the best fit for you? There are many wonderful women who moved more to the right over time as you have. Is it worth marrying a cookie-cutter BY girl when there could be a better match for you outside the system? What creates a Shidduch crisis is when marriage is used as a status symbol i.e. I will only marry someone is who is _________ (Tall, blond hair, blue eyes, LWMO, MO, MY, BT, BY, etc.), which you have alluded from your own personal experience some of the difficult you experience. But that shouldn’t justify our own marriage choice because others might fall into that trap.
Ultimately, this conversation is best suited for yourself and your Rav, who hopefully can give you some guidance as to how to navigate the system. Wishing you only the best and that IYH you should find the right person at the right time for you.
@Workingbochur95
I forsee you being divorced multiple times… and I truly sympathize with the poor girls you somehow manage to coerce into marrying you… OR, you will grow old, and be single, and become the city nebach… all because you are acting like a spoiled child who had his “motzes” taken away. Nebach. I won’t be responding to any more of your posts… because I refuse to waste my time with a person who CHOOSES to be a nebachle..
Ok I’ll bite.
Workingbochur95,
A girl who grew up LWMO and became RWMO (Rav Kook follower) would have serious shalom bayis problems if she married a bochur who grew up LWMO but started following all of the piskei halacha of the Chazon Ish. The same applies to such a girl if she was to marry a LWMO-raised bochur learning full time in BMG or who learned in Brisk.
How could you say something like this about someone else but not expect them to say the same thing about you?
The OP (I assume) sent the OP with minor changes as a letter to
Mishpacha, which printed it this week. Let’s see how that goes.And now there is this Ted Talk topic…
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