How do you address people of the opposite sex?

You’re not alone

It is forbidden to make small talk about matters unrelated to business. Men and women working together should not discuss politics, current events, recent tragedies or gossip, even if they do not do so regularly. Discussing these matters on a daily basis, is a violation of halachos that border on giluy arayos, which requires one to sacrifice his life rather than transgress. (p. 9)

When conversing with female employees or co-workers, one must be careful not to us the word “we,” so that the man and woman are not referred to as one unit. For example, one should not say, “We must talk with the editor,” or “We must purchase that software program.” Rather, he should say, “The editor must be consulted,” or “Please purchase that program.” (pp. 10-11)

It is a custom amongst yirei shomayim not to call a woman other than one’s wife or immediate family member by her first name, thus keeping a respectful distance between the two parties. Referring to a woman by her first name brings inappropriate familiarity into the relationship. Similarly, a woman should refrain from addressing a man other than her husband or immediate family member by his first name. (p. 20)

A Helpful Suggestion:

It is appropriate for male and female employees [to] refrain from all conversation when they meet anywhere outside of the office. This includes not discussing even job-related matters when meeting in the hallway or elevator at work.

“It cannot be stressed enough that the term prutzim also refers to people who are otherwise shomrei Torah u’mitzvos, but are not careful in matters relating to kraivah l’arayos. They may be regularly exposed to immodesty through the media, or may often be in the presence of immoral individuals through their everyday social interactions….(p.39) meaning that they are exposed to immodesty through television, movies, in publications and the like. An individual involved in such activities is labeled a parutz. This is not limited to visual images; someone who is exposed to any form of indecent activity, such as chat rooms on the Internet, is considered a parutz. Such forms of recreation are a breach of morality.” (p. 34)

Oh, for heaven’s sake.

You are fully aware that neither the OP nor subsequent posters were talking about a spouse (or certain other relatives).

I follow Rav Neiman’s advice, that I reprinted above.

Option of exchanging private contact information, meet and know the others gender?

You are fully aware that neither the OP nor subsequent posters were talking about a spouse (or certain other relatives).

Fair enough… but I’m curious why you chose to quote my “For heaven’s sake” from the other thread. I didn’t say it here.

The Wolf

There was a time when no one even had a last name. In my humble opinion, you should address a person the way in which THEY ask you to address them. Anything else is not respectful, though I am sure that might actually sound counterintuitive to some people. If a person I know continued to refer to me by my family name, when I specifically asked the person to please call me by my given name, I would be perturbed. I would be likewise put off if they called me by my first name WITHOUT my consent (as telemarketers often do).

I wonder if HaRav Neiman had the personal experience of working in a mixed gender environment, especially with goyim.

Not making minimal small talk is almost impossible and would at the very least be viewed as anti social if not downright rude and antagonistic.

Minimal small talk is social normalicy.

There is no Makor in Shas and Poskim against calling someone of the opposite gender by their first name. I don’t know who this R’ Neiman is (Joseph and the Frumteens moderator have quoted him before, though), but he has no Makor for these things he is saying.

Joseph: Find me where in Shulchan Aruch it says that making small talk is Kreivah L’arayos. Find me where there is a Chiluk between a daily basis or just once in a while. Find me where talking about job-related matters in the hallway is Assur but in the office is Muttar. Find me where in Shulchan Aruch it says not to refer to oneself together with a woman as “we”. Let me help. You won’t.

“The things he attributes to being kraivah l’arayos are per Shulchan Aruch. “

Where?

“Not making minimal small talk is almost impossible and would at the very least be viewed as anti social if not downright rude and antagonistic.

Minimal small talk is social normalicy.”

It is perfectly possible if you never want to have a real job.

I’m wondering if it’s correct to be quoting a small portion of a Sefer which some people seem to be unfamiliar with in a public forum during the week of Shiva. And personal shailos are always best asked directly to a rav.

Sam2 – whilst loath to defend Joseph, surely you appreciate that various different people have different approaches. One of these differences is whether a person looks to try and keep Shulchan Oruch purely based on “Vos shteit” or alternatively they want to go beyond the letter of the law. I must stress that I actually find both options to be valid and to have extremely logical reasons for them.

My personal preference is to work with what I have. When I work in Goyish palces, I use first names. Yiddishe places, Mrs etc. Of course its all fake because we’re creating false fences but we value that. Of coruse, that’s my personal preference.

Tarud b’umnaso

Joseph: So you said everything he said is based off Shulchan Aruch. Then I called it into question. Then you answered with some Vortlech, but no citations from Shulchan Aruch.

Long story short: You can’t use “Me’od Me’od” to make up whatever you want and call it Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. The Shulchan Aruch gives a long list of things you can’t do after “Me’od Me’od”. That list is what he is referring to when he says “Me’od Me’od”. He wants nothing flirtatious or overly familiar. “Small talk” in an office setting is not that.

There is no Issur of Libo Gas Bo. Libo Gas Bo is a concept in Hilchos Yichud that makes us remove Heterim that we otherwise use.

According to you, why is it Muttar to date? Because if consistent small talk is Kreivah L’arayos, then someone should be obligated to shoot themselves before going on a fourth (maybe even third) date.

I will B”N look up the Sefer HaChinuch when I get a chance.

If small talk isn’t overly familiar, I don’t know what is. And if small talk doesn’t fall under al tarbeh sicha im haishah, then you must think that nothing does.

Sam2- The actual halacha for not talking to women is not a diyuk from “meod meod” as Joseph said, but rather explicitly from the SA itself (EH 21:6): ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???. The issue of she’eilas shalom is brought up in a number of gemaras; in eiruvin 53, Beruriah criticizes R’ Yosi for saying just a few words too much, on the basis of “al tarbeh sicha im ha’isha.”

“If small talk isn’t overly familiar, I don’t know what is”

Jospeh

I dont think you know what small talk is. Small talk is the exact opposite of “overly familiar” it is talk with complete strangers for example a person you sit next ot on a plane. About weather where your from etc…

Did you really not know this or is this part of your trolling?

I’d say it’s respectful and tznius to address people as Mr/Mrs, Rabbi/Rebbetzin, Hakham/Rabbanit.

Flatbusher, there was no such thing as Mr. or Mrs. at one time, and people referred to each other by their names. Are you suggesting they were committing an immodest or disrespectful act?

Anyone who wants to be called Mr. Mrs. Dr. Professor, Rabbi,or whatever their title may be, should be. But some people really have no such desire, and THEIR wishes should be respected, as well. My Rebbetzin does not even want to be called Rebbetzin. She asked to be called by her first name, and if someone says Rebbetzin or even Mrs. ________,she gently says her first name to them.

I assume that HaRav Neiman would say even necessary conversation soley pertaining to work related issues, with a woman is bdieved. However for parnassah its very often not possible to do the lchatchila, especially when it comes to dealing with women. Since R Neiman views it as a necessity to at least talk about work related issues, he is matir it.

I was merely suggesting/wondering that his heter should extend. I am saying that in order to keep a job in a standard office environment one must make small talk with women as well.

Joseph let me clarify – How is small talk yarog val yaavor?

I assume bec “lo sikrivu…” acc to the poiskim includes any conduct that is of the nature of behavior that leads towards an actual aveirah. That conduct itself is included in the lav and thus is part of gilu arayos and yarog val yaavor.

If someone, through making neccesary conversation with someone of the opposite gender, did so in the fashion and tone of someone who was trying to engage in more than just business, that too could be yarog val yavor.

Small talk done in a strictly professional manner i assume would not be yarog val yaaavor.

You can argue that it makes more sense to suggest that ppl refrain from small talk because it is more likely to lead to questionable behavior than business talk.

However both could be yarog val yaavor and both could not be.

Even business talk is a potential slippery slope, yet it is mutar for parnassah. It is leicah darchah acharinah.

So too small talk as well may be neccessary.

Gavra, not sure what your first paragraph was supposed to mean, and I’m not okay with calling a Rav “Stam a guy”….

That correction wasn’t from me.