how do Israelis shave?

I think many of the poskim in EY (Chazon Ish, Rav Kanievsky, Rav Elyashev, etc.) are opposed to shaving b’chlal.

Tums: Are they actually opposed to shaving or do people just use their names to back up when they say you can’t shave? People like to quote names (R’ Elyashiv’s especially) when citing things that were never said.

There is a hair removal cream that some use in place of an electric shaver.

Many Israeli Chareidim use shavers also. R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ZT”L actually permitted certain shavers that even R’ Moshe ZT”L did not.

Someone I know very well showed me a particular shaver he bought. I told him that according to what I understand from my Rov (who is a renowned posek), it may be problematic. When this person showed it to the same Rov, he said that indeed according to R’ Moshe it would be problematic, but according to R’ Shlomo Zalman it would be fine!

One example I personally know of is a Yeshiva in Jerusalem that is descended from the Slabodka Yeshiva in Europe. The doctrine is that students are cleanshaven until the Rosh Yeshiva feels they are ready to ascend the next level.

givingtago- M’dioraysa there are 5 spots that are problematic, and all others would be fine. Even in those 5 spots, the issue is only shaving (as opposed to uprooting) in a manner that destroys (as opposed to a scissors) i.e. a razor (????? ??? ?? ?????). Because we are unsure of the exact location, we refrain from shaving (with a razor) our entire beard (including moustache and neck). There is absolutely no Halachic problem with trimming (i.e. shortening the hair, not at skin level) any part of the beard, and certainly not the moustache. The only halachic problem arises when trimming close to the skin, with a razor. The dispute among the poskim is simply in regard to which modern devices are considered a Halachic razor.

When you talk about people “who wouldn’t touch their beards” i.e. not even to shorten with a scissors, that is not a Halachic issue, but one based on Minhag and Kabballah. There is thus a lot more leeway for allowing trimming of the moustache for various practical reasons.

Sam: Rav Elyashiv has a Teshuva printed in Kovetz Teshuvos where he forbids shaving with an electric shaver. Unfortunately, one of the sources he quotes is the Chofetz Chaim in Likutei Halachos, which was written before the invention of the electric shaver.

“When you talk about people “who wouldn’t touch their beards” i.e. not even to shorten with a scissors, that is not a Halachic issue, but one based on Minhag and Kabballah.”

this is far from the truth. (and this is coming from someone who trims his beard and used to shave clean). i do not have the wherewithal to have a scholarly discourse about this, i am simply lacking in knowledge. however, there are QUITE a few major poskim who take issue with jews who do not grow beards.

of special interest in the minchas eluzar, the munkatch rebbe in pre-world war 1 europe, who wrote a lengthy teshuva on the subject, quoting and rebuffing many other poskim who in his time had come out with the “revolutionary” psak that maybe it was ok to not have a beard. he writes in an addendum that he later recieved letters from several of those poskim who surrendered to his superior reasoning, and one who explicitly stated that he (the writer of the letter) wished he had never published his original learning, as he now realized the topic was of far greater importance than that which he orginally ascribed it. i dont know which teshuva it is, i read it (quoted in its entirety) in a sefer about the subject of whether it was ok to cut off one’s beard.

there are also writings from the chofetz chaim on this subject, in which he discusses the matter in far stronger terms than “minhag” or “kabbala”, indeed he writes about the “detestable habit” of those who do not keep their beard.

it is interesting to note that in the opening lines of the minchas elazars teshuva, he remarks how upsetting it is that there are those in society who try to talk about the growing of beards as though it is just a matter of minhag or kabbalah……..

well i do in fact shave my beard. but you should be careful how you talk about it, it DEFINITELY IS a matter of halacha.

Sam: I’m afraid that contradicts the implication of his Teshuva

let me explain, in case i wasn’t clear. the fact that i am not scholarly enough to hand down a psak on the issue does not mean i am an ignoramous. there is ample evidence that many consider the practice of “not touching the beard” to be an issue rooted in halacha, not merely an issue of conflicting minhagim. the reason i quoted the minchas eluzar is because he is one of the most recent mekoros of a halachic discourse of the issue, and indeed some factions of klal yisroel quote him as a source that trimming ones beard at all is an absolute issur, and not a minhag at all.

the reason i quoted the chafetz chaims letter is because he also in his letter treats it as a halachic issue. however, he does not paskin on the issue, he merely stresses that those who choose to follow the psak that permits beard trimming are doing so to indulge in a detestable habit. again, he treats it as a halachic issue, NOT an issue of minhag or divrei kabala.

therefore, even though you or someone else might come from a community where the accepted psak, and thus your mesorah, is to trim the beard, and therefore FOR YOU it would only be a chumra or minhag to take upon yourself to not do so, that may not be true for someone else.

so to write on a public forum the words “When you talk about people “who wouldn’t touch their beards” i.e. not even to shorten with a scissors, that is not a Halachic issue, but one based on Minhag and Kabballah.” is in fact FALSE. this is because you do not know who might be reading your post, and even if it is true for some members of klal yisroel, for others this is indeed a HALACHIC ISSUE of serious import, for which they might need to consult a qualified rav.

incidentally, the shailos utshevos of the minchas eluzar, and the shailos utshevos of those he quotes and rebuffs, absolutely definitely positively completely fall within the realm of halacha seforim. the minchas eluzar was not writing for his or our amusement, and he felt that trimming ones beard at all is a serious issur, and that brings it into the arena of modern-day halacha.

just for reference, an issue of minhag for example might be using olive oil to light ner shabbos instead of wax. the reason it is an issue of minhag as opposed to halacha is because it the poskim have clearly been machria that one may suffice to use wax. thus, the issue of olive oil instead of wax can be called an issue of minhagim. the ramifications of this are many, among them might be that if you grew up in a household using olive oil, or you did so yourself, but then you want to change, it may be possible to do so merely by being matir neder (THIS IS NOT A PSAK, I AM NOT A POSEK) however, if you are part of a community that believes that trimming the beard is an issur, it may be much more complicated to change your derech, as you are now changing your halachic mesorah. this doesn’t mean it cant be done. i am just trying to demonstrate what it means when an issue is halachic in nature as opposed to one rooted in minhag.

i cannot discuss halacha midivrei kaballah, as that is another issue entirely, and btw is not given enough respect i think by many, as it in fact is a very serious issue.

^_^ hope i made myself clear!

i would like to stress that i explicitly mentioned that the chafetz chaim DID NOT PASKIN against trimming in his VERY STRONGLY WORDED letter against it.

however he DOES treat it as a halachic issue. i trim my beard. i have NO agenda. i just want people to realize that this is a SERIOUS ISSUE and not to be taken lightly.

that is all

^_^

The reason why even people who don’t touch their beards will trim their mustache is because swallowing hair is a sakana and sometimes mustache hair can get into the food if its too long (the mustache not the food).

How is the citation of the Sefer Chofetz Chaim Ch. 6 on lo yilbash out of context? And if the S”A permits trimming by a mustache, the implication would be it is different (i.e. not permitted) by a beard.

tums=I have the sefer in front of me (Kol sifrei chofetz chaim) and the sefer “chofetz chaim” deals with loshon horah. I quickly perused chapter 6 and there is no mention about “lo jilbash” or shaving one’s beard. Can you substantiate your quote? (about lo jilbash)

tums- well, we must have different editions of the “kol sifrei chofetz chaim”- edited by Rav Mendel Zaks in 1960. I do not have “tiferes odom” at all. I’ll try to get my hands on your edition.

shmoel: Rama MiPano, Chasam Sofer, Ramchal, Reb Moshe, Reb Shmuel Kaminetsky, Rav Heineman

just a sample off hand

shmoel: is this good enough?

Shut Chasam Sofer, Orach Chaim 159, he also quotes Rama mi’Pano

personally heard from Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky

Star-K website

Igros Moshe EH 2:12 and YD 2:61

Tur OC 581

Shulchan Aruch YD 181:11

Tiferes Yisroel Makkos 3:5

Har Tzvi YD 143

see also http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/beard