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Das -“Health – Not sure if you were serious or not but it doesn’t sound like they’re having such major marriage problems that would require divorce or therapy c”v. Although seeking advise from rabbanim and other knowledgeable people is always a good idea, you seem to imply that their marriage is on the rocks. Every one has differences and arguments in a marriage (and this is a pretty typical one) – nothing wrong with that! Question is how to deal with it.”
Yes, I was serious. By the time a person comes to a public forum, like YWN, seeking help – it’s because they are at the end of their rope.
Now is the time to seek professional help before the resentment amongst themselves is too great.
There are frum groups of Shopaholics Anonymous.
How do you stop your wife spending…?
Simple …. just hide her shoes !!!!!
Why are you using credit cards?
Give her cash and if she she must use a credit card (like for online purchases) she has to give that amount of cash into an envelope marked for the cc bill.
” By the time a person comes to a public forum, like YWN, seeking help – it’s because they are at the end of their rope.”
Yeah, right. People post here their half-baked thoughts of whatever crossed their mind half-seriously or less.
C’mon Joe…one more screen name and I think you’ll break a record…
You just tell her, “dear, you need to cut back the spending by 25%” or whatever limit you wish to set.
Then jump to the left so the knife goes into the chair instead of your face.
Another option is to give her a prepaid MasterCard instead of a credit card or blank checks. And deposit to the card monthly whatever the spending limit is.
Joseph, I really hope you are joking.
The Halacha is that if a wife purchases something without her husband’s permission, the husband has the right to get the money back from the merchant. Even if the product or service was consumed and isn’t returnable.
Joseph is (almost) never serious though he pretends to be…
If this question is still relevant to anybody I’d suggest setting up X dollars (whatever amount you think is reasonable) as an automatic transfer – each month – to a savings account, and putting the spender (HIM OR HER) in charge of paying the bills.
But first have an open discussion about it and get your spouse on board with your plan – and the details. Compromise on the savings amount if necessary.
let her get a side job to pay for extras.
Sparkly – maybe she is the one working and earning the money in the first place (I know halachically it still belongs to her husband, and she can’t overspend w/o his permission. I’m just pointing out that she may not be able to work harder than she does already).
Also, we don’t know that the things she is spending on are extras.
Bottom line, what they need to do is talk!
lilmod ulelamaid – my money does NOT belong to my husband thank G-d that the guys that i was talking about that were my shidduchim know that the money i make is MINE! in fact so much so that they have to pay for everything and the rest which is the money that i make is what i get to spend on extras and can buy extras for my husband and i.
Sparkly, halacha disagrees with you.
I did not see anyone mentioning that a wife has the right to say “Ee Efshy B’Takonas Chachomim”, keep her own earnings and release the husband from supporting her. Admittedly, it’s not a good recipe for Shalom Bayis .. . . . .
Why should anyone stop his wife from spending? I don’t understand the question.
Joseph – state the pasuk that disagrees with me.
Sparkly: Shulchan Aruch 248, Gilyon Rabbi Akiva Eiger EH 80:1, Chazon Ish EH 70:6, Igros Moshe EH 1:106, Shevet Halevi 2:118, etc.
Sparkly………
I’m in agreement with you. The USA is not a theocracy and wives are not chattel belonging to husbands.
In 1970 my sister was married immediately after graduating college and just before starting to teach. My brother and I each gave her $1,000 and told her this is your money, it is not your husband’s property. Soon you’ll be earning a living, but when the children come and only he is working you still need to have some independent money. We never want you in the situation of having to ask your husband for money to buy him a birthday gift. If this ever runs out and you have not been able tgo replenish it come back and tell us.
About 10 years later when she had both a sickly husband and a deaf child, she told us she needed some extra personal funds. We were more than happy to help.
When our eldest daughter was married erev Pesach our sons also gave her a private cash stash. It was larger than my sister got, as it is 45 years later.
No woman should have to be so controlled by a man that she lives in fear of embarrassment that the husband would tell a merchant that my wife was not authorized to buy from you and demand the money back.
Slowgoing: “did not see anyone mentioning that a wife has the right to say “Ee Efshy B’Takonas Chachomim”, keep her own earnings and release the husband from supporting her. Admittedly, it’s not a good recipe for Shalom Bayis”
True. Also, not a good recipe for shalom bayis for her husband to act overly-domineering and controlling, using the fact that according to halacha the money belongs to him if she does not release him from supporting her. Also, not a good recipe for shalom bayis for a wife to spend money w/o discussing it with her husband…
Bottom Line: if you want shalom bayis, talk about the situation. Wives show respect for your husband, and husbands show respect for your wives, and shalom al yisrael! (I know – people who aren’t married make the best marriage counselors, and people who don’t have kids are the best at giving child-rearing advice :)!)
Income earned during a marriage is by secular law an asset of the family and must be divided equally. According to Jewish law it belongs to the husband. As far as the wife saying I’ll keep my income and you don’t have to support me. She can do that but odds are she wouldn’t get a get (Jewish writ of divorce) or if she does she will have to pay alimony.
Joseph I’m not married, but I think most married couples prefer to settle their disagreements without involving the Shulchan Aruch. If I may add that seems to be the healthy thing to do. I appreciate your bkius though.
Oy, that’s a woman for you.
You need to put her on a tight budget. If she gives you a hard time, you should get the input of a rav and a financial counselor.
I think most Yirei Shamayim prefer to involve/follow Shulchan Aruch, Person1.
Person1: I agree with you, but I do have one qualification. It is very important for girls/women to realize that al pi halacha, they can’t spend money without okaying it without their husbands first, and even if their husbands are the nicest people in the world and even if (maybe especially if) the wife is the one earning the money, they might not appreciate it if their wives spend money without asking/discussing it with them first.
I knew two newly-married ladies who did not realize that, and their husbands were not so happy about it. In one case, I felt a bit guilty, because I had been out shopping with her, and when she said something about buying an article of clothing for herself as a surprise for him, I had a feeling it was a bad idea but I didn’t say anything. Her husband is extremely nice so it didn’t exactly ruin their marriage, but I think she wished she had realized that ahead of time.
I’m not saying that men should be controlling or domineering, but I think there is something in between a wife feeling controlled and a wife spending money indiscriminately. Each couple has to figure out what works best for them, taking their spouse’s needs and personality into account.
ps: And of course, the wife should be more focused on her husband’s needs and the husband on his wife’s needs.
Rav Avigdor Miller zt’l always said that a working wife should hand her paycheck to her husband. (This was before the days of direct deposit.)
Joseph, I would think it should depend on the couple, and what works best for them. Besides, some men might prefer that their wives do the banking to avoid bitul Torah and shmiras ainayim issues.
It was the principal, lilmud, not necessarily who did the paperwork. He said that in shiurim (you can hear it on his Torah Tapes); it wasn’t individualized advice.
Joseph – okay, I’ll look into it when I get married, IYH. As long as the guy is nice and not controlling, I don’t think it would bother me.
and as long as he gives it back to me after I hand it to him 🙂
Person1- WHAT?
Whether we are a married couple settling disagreements, an indidvidual driving to the mall, a couple disciplining their child, a couple getting a divorce, a couple going out to dinner, a woman buying a dress, a young man going on vacation with his friends, a young lady talking on the phone to her classmate, an individual walking into the bank, or a thirsty individual looking to buy a drink on a summer day-
We always aspire to involve the Shulchan Aruch.
What exactly does “Shivisi…” mean to you?
Do I ever do anything impulsively, distractedly, negligently or unthinkingly? Yes. Is that who I want to be? No.
If there’s no Yiras HaRommimus in the relationship, it’s not going to lead to good things…
He’ll give you a prepaid MasterCard. 😉
Sholom Bayis – priceless.
“He’ll give you a prepaid MasterCard.”
sounds good to me!
Golfer, to be “dan l’kaf zchus”, I think Person1’s point may have been that once you are involved in an argument (chas v’shalom), the best way to resolve it might not be for the husband to start pointing out all of the halachos to his wife and holding them over her head.
Both of your points are valid and important to keep in mind. On the one hand, the Shulchan Aruch must guide all of our actions, but at the same time, when dealing with relationships, one must also keep in mind that the main issue is the relationship itself and the individuals involved, and not necessarily the “dinei mamanos” involved. Obviously, the Torah is our Guide in all respects and it Guides us in the Middos and sensitivity needed to deal with relationship issues as well.
So to sum things up, we need to follow the Shulchan Aruch’s guidance in all matters, and we also need to communicate sensitively with our spouses about potential areas of discord, i.e. money. Usually, when someone studies to become a Rav or Posek, he has to know the Shulchan Aruch pretty well. Although there are only 4 sections to it, most of the Rabbonim who confer Semicha (ordination) on a would-be Rav also encourage their candidates to become knowledgeable in the “fifth” section of the Shulchan Aruch, which is how to be a mentsch (I trust that word is sufficiently well-known) and how to deal with people in a humanist, effective manner. The Shulchan Aruch definitely doesn’t want couples to fight over money or anything else. Everyone, not only the Rabbonim, have to behave in a way that is consistent with the fifth section of the Shulchan Aruch.
I heard a story about a husband who “dragged” his wife to the Rav so the Rav could confirm to her that since she was now married, she was obligated to listen (he really meant obey) to her husband over her father, as the Halacha states. The Rav confirmed that, but then he said to the husband “If you want your wife to live with you to a ripe old age, she will only merit that from listening to her father (Kibud Av); not from listening to you !”
I think lilmud’s above post (linked below) really summed the issue up quite succinctly:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-do-i-stop-my-wife-spending/page/2#post-625271
Maybe this is a linguistic misunderstanding. The “Shulchan Aruch” has become a short for “everything hashem wants from you”. However I was only talking about the book “Shulchan Aruch” (and other diney mamonot sources)
I don’t think you should resolve problems in shlom bait by looking up who’s right in diney mamonot. LU hasexplained the reasons for that better than I could. I doubt anyone disagrees with that?
And Golfer, doesn’t your response seems to you a little bit too alarmed?
Slowgoing: I heard a story (not sure if I’m giving it over exactly right) about a couple who had some argument involving priorities of kibbud av v’eim vs.the wife listening to her husband (I don’t remember the details – if it had to do with the wife doing something for her parents, or the husband doing something for his parents). In any case, they went to the Rav and presented it as a technical halachic sheilah. He answered the question with the technical halachic answer and then told them that if they are asking such a question, they clearly need marriage therapy.
My point is the same one I made above. The technical halachos should guide us, but at the end of the day, we are talking about relationships, and these situations must be dealt with accordingly.
Person1: “And Golfer, doesn’t your response seems to you a little bit too alarmed?”
Person1, the way she understood you, she would have been right for being so alarmed (if you had meant what she thought you meant). However, she misunderstood you, as you have clearly confirmed in your above post.
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