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Gavriel613 — Why wouldn’t how he drives, under possibly stressful driving conditions, be objectively relevant for the girl to help decide if he’s a baal middos?
You don’t seem to understand that the girl’s time is itself valuable. It’s frustrating to take time from your busy schedule of school/work/social engagements to spend time with someone and then have a miserable time because he’s not smart, not attractive, not self aware, or whatever. Or what if he’s not just not for her but actively rude or condescending or mean.
I can just as legitimatly ask you, how can a boy have a bad date? He picks the venue, he can go wherever he likes, order whatever he likes etc
It is not correct to describe a date with someone who is “not smart, not attractive, not self aware, or whatever” as a “bad date” (on that basis).
Is this YWN or Sesame Street?
Slominers – “Why wouldn’t how he drives, under possibly stressful driving conditions, be objectively relevant for the girl to help decide if he’s a baal middos?”
Yes certainly bad middos can be seen under stressful conditions, and obviously the girl should take them into account. But even someone with very good middos could still easily get flustered, e.g. by having a close scrape with another car. This would then make him feel very stupid etc, and if he isn’t such a good driver he’d be even more nervous to start of with that this type of thing might happen. The girl on the other hand just sits there and watches the ride.
Besides, what chance does the boy get to see how she reacts under stress, if she is a baalas middos. I’m not saying its irrelevant, I’m just supporting Josephs point that it is unfairly balanced.
5 minutes with a bad date is like 5 years on a bad diet
“I hope that the success of the shidduch doesn’t depend on how he drives on a shidduch, ”
So, if he drives like a maniac, flips the bird at other drivers and curses them out, that shouldnt count towards the “success of the date”?
apushatayid – obviously not. Your example isn’t to do with how he drives specifically, it is a general problem with his middos which she sees when he drives. I was referring to someone who isn’t a very good driver, eg he makes the car stall (in a manual car), is over cautious, misses turnings etc. I think you will agree that in an otherwise perfect match a girl would be stupid to reject because of this, even though driving is very useful.
Sorry if it wasn’t clear I meant this, see my follow-up post https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-could-a-girl-ever-have-a-bad-date/#post-1334765 for clarification.
Wow. I didn’t even bother reading the comments. This thread boggles my mind. I mean, Joseph you must be having a good day. Such an insane post to a very obvious question needs no reply….
Nice to see PBA, it’s been months…or even a year or two when I last saw your name round town. No wonder this thread has actually been continued if PBA is here.
Iacisrmma – sorry about that. I realized after my post was put up that I may have put the smiley in the wrong place. I also realized when I read your post that that might be the reason you missed it.
As I was posting, i was trying to figure out where to put the smiley. I was never “taught” these things – I go by how it looks. The problem is that with the new format, you can’t see how things look until it’s too late.
As soon as I saw it, I realized that it didn’t look right.
One of my issues is that I’m not so comfortable using smileys when posting to members of the opposite gender, but sometimes it’s necessary to use them in order to ensure that no one is offended.
I think that was my reasoning when I put it after the link. I felt that a smiley was necessary in this case (and you have proven me right), but I thought it would look less inappropriate after the link.
In any case, I apologize for any inadvertent offense, and thank you for the tip on how to use smileys, so now I will know for the future.
Are you kidding???? Of course a girl could have a bad date. I’m not underestimating the job of the boy, but when a girl goes out and the boy is boring or she could tell he isn’t for him, she still has to look pretty and keep the conversations going for the next few hours. its almost like wasted energy!
Ladies can have bad dates, of course, but it’s not fair to make the assumption that “bad” date = bad guy. Always go on a second date. It’s probably not his fault if he was driving badly or if conversation was stilted. Maybe there were a lot of stray cats on the street that day. Maybe he was trying to listen to what you had to say instead of talking about himself. That’s humility, and it’s a good thing. I’m sick of people always assuming the man is to blame. 😞
There’s a deep attitude in society that’s entering our communities that men are incompetent, men are stupid, men are disposable. It’s ok to degrade men in ways that society would never tolerate with the treatment of women. There was an advertisement for a kosher frozen fish that showed the husband as an incompetent fool incapable of making supper. Of course, the wife comes in to save the day. This is not acceptable, and it is not ok. Men are being decimated by this society, and we can thank women’s lib.
I’m fond of Satmar chasidim for one reason. The men there are men, the women women. They’re stuck in the 50s, and that’s a great thing. It’s expected that almost all men go to work. They learn to the point and don’t waste their time with mental gymnastics in the kollelim. The ladies raise the kids, go shopping, deliver meals to hospitals. Nobody seems to complain there. Everyone has their role, and there’s shalom bayis.
Being stuck in the 50s is not a good thing. Civil rights and stuff.
I think society was better in those days. The 60s ruined this country. The only good I see coming out of the civil rights movement was provisions for religious observance in hiring.
dovrosenbaum,
There’s a deep attitude in society that’s entering our communities that men are incompetent, men are stupid
Yes, this is true, and very dangerous, for men, women, and children.
It’s ok to degrade men in ways that society would never tolerate with the treatment of women.
That’s a ridiculous statement. You just don’t notice the degradation of women in “society”.
Men are being decimated by this society, and we can thank women’s lib.
Not sure you were intending to use the word decimated here… and I don’t think you can wrap this neatly in a box and blame women’s lib.
They’re stuck in the 50s, and that’s a great thing.
The stereotypical 1950s culture you yearn for, despite being considered “traditional” in ignorant 2017, was actually not traditional at all. Men were not traditionally cut off from their wives and children for long stretches of each day due to long commutes to work; frequently leaving before their kids woke up, and coming home close to bedtime. This disconnect between men and their families, which expanded in the 1950s along with the huge migration to the suburbs, created the underpinning conditions that led to the stereotype of the clueless father. No, the healthy traditional lifestyle is where men worked close to home, and the kids could easily move about between mother and father, learning from and interacting with both. Men could step in and help in the house and women could help their husbands in the field or store when needed.
They learn to the point and don’t waste their time with mental gymnastics in the kollelim.
Calling Torah learning “mental gymnastics” is insulting.
dovrosenbaum,
I think society was better in those days. The 60s ruined this country. The only good I see coming out of the civil rights movement was provisions for religious observance in hiring.
Are you conflating the civil rights movement with all of the social upheavals that occurred in the 1960s, or do you yearn for Jim Crow laws?
The best daters won’t necessarily make the best husbands.
If you can’t stand someone on a date, that’s a red flag.
“If you can’t stand someone on a date, that’s a red flag.”
Tell that to all the shadchanim who tried (and often succeeded) to get me to keep going out with guys whom I couldn’t stand. Maybe that’s why I hate dating so much.
It’s expected that almost all men go to work. They learn to the point and don’t waste their time with mental gymnastics in the kollelim.
That is an unacceptable comment. It is an insult to the Torah and Bnei Torah worldwide.
It seems like you’ve [apparently] never had the opportunity to taste the sweetness of לימוד התורה בעיון. I pity you for that, and I wish you would have and hope that one day you will get the opportunity to experience for yourself the beauty of it.
Whatever the case is, you have no right to call לימוד התורה “wasting time”.
Learning is a privilege.
Learning is a privilege, a right, and an obligation.
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