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So I grew up going to Chabad, and really connect to Chassidic teachings. Leaning that Hashem needs us to serve Him with joy makes Judaism and Torah not only more meaningful, but more positive for me, and thus more practical.
I know that Chassidus, as far as I know and what do I know?, began with the Baal Shem Tov. Seeing that this was relatively recently in Jewish history, I understand why the world’s Jewry wasn’t “Chassidic” before, but why not after?
I thought maybe it’s because maybe some Jews do not follow a Rebbe, but not all Rebbes are Chassidic too.
I guess what I’m wondering is, in summary, how do frum Jews grow up loving and enjoying Torah without Chassidus? Or it is obviously not all cut and dry, and Chassidus is really bringing out Torah teachings that non-Chassidic Jews learn and know already?
Thank you
Chassidim are mostly extinct by now.
Chabad Lubavitch is one Chasidus out of many. Satmar alone has over 200,000 Chasidim in North America, Europe and Eretz Yisroel.
Sorry to break it to you, but Chabad of today has A. Nothing to do with any chassidus and B. Nothing to do with the original Chabad
How can one say this? Hashem can make Chassidim the norm tomorrow.
No, He cannot. If He did so, it would defeat the entire purpose of bechira. (Or, to put it more finely, He can, but He won’t).
In any event, I don’t understand why you think chassidus should be the default among frum Jews. Shivim Panim LaTorah and all that — and non-Chassidus is just as legitimate* as non-Chassidus.
The Wolf
(* You might even make the case that it’s more legitimate in that Chassidus is a relatively new phenomenon, but I’m not going to make that argument.)
The Wolf
Light – for starters please define Chasiddus”. Did for example the Mahral or the GR”A of Vilna need “Chasiddus”?
Only 1 out of every twenty Chassidim is a Chassid.
Kj – Chabad is no different than most other so-called Chasidim iin regards to that aspect. In fact, in a way they are relatively closer to the original than others, for at least some are into the limud haChasidus.
LB: Satmar, Ger, Bobov, Vizhnitz, Stolin, Tosh, Klausenberg, Skvere, etc. are all very much Chasidic.
LB, joy has nothing to do with jumping around and singing “Mitzva gedola liyot b’simcha” (which is not true – sometimes there is a mitzva to be in avelut and really we should be all year round because the Bet HaMikdash still has not been built). Joy is the inner satisfaction one receives from doing a mitzva. One can attain this when learning Gemara and Halacha. In fact, intellectual joy is on a higher level than emotional joy. as the intellect is what separates us from the animals (just look at the eyes of a dog when it see its master and you will know that they feel emotional joy).
Avi K, the way you’re speaking about chassidus I don’t think you’ve had a real taste of it. The line you’re quoting is from Lekutei Moharan, and it’s one of only 3 mitzvot that the Rebbe described as a “mitzvah gedola” so it’s not just something stam, there’s something very deep behind it.
Besides? What’s the problem with singing and dancing? Tehillim says “ivdu et Hashem b’simcha, bo lefanav birnana” Do you know better than David HaMelech? I know somebody who thought they did – his wife Michal. She criticized him for singing and dancing to serve Hashem and the pasukim tell us she never had another child (though I believe some hold she had one more child which she died in birth).
It’s funny you compare emotional joy to a dog. It also says in tehillim 73 וַאֲנִי בַעַר וְלֹא אֵדָע בְּהֵמוֹת הָיִיתִי עִמָּךְ
David HaMelech compares his service and level to a beast. Rashi says that even so he still he didn’t budge from Yirat Shemayim.It’s fine if you don’t feel connected to chassidus – but it’s really sad that whatever aspect of Torah you do feel connected to is so weak that you feel ok denigrating those who do.
LB – I think what RebYidd23 may be referring to, though I could be wrong, is that much of chassidim and chassidus today has differed from the movement the Baal Shem Tov originally started. The Besh”t had an intense focus on the everyday common person and the greatness of their simple emunah and seemingly insignificant devotions, showing how in truth they were quite beloved in heaven. Whereas today chassidus can often be somewhat elitist and insular (not all the time but definitely not rare).
I have an english biography on Reb Yoilish, and it quotes him as saying that the light of the Baal Shem Tov was only meant to last for like 200 years or something like that, implying that chassidus today is just a shell of what it used to be but no longer has the inner light it did at the beginning. I’ve also heard that he supposedly said none of the chassidus’s around today still have the essence of the Baal Shem Tov except for Chabad and Breslov (little known fact, he actually helped fund one of if not the very first printing of tikkun haklali in America, but told them not to publicize it so that people wouldn’t assume the tikkun haklali was just a Satmar thing and not read it).
Joseph where do you get such stats? 200,000 Satmar Chassidim!? if so Kein Yirbu but I think that your numbers are way off
Chaver, by the early ’80s Satmar had over 100,000 across the US, Canada, Europe and Eretz Yisroel. Today they have over three times as many yeshiva bochorim than 30 years ago.
Rav Yeshuad Hachasid and the chasidei ashkenaz were followers of which chassidic group?
What about “hahu chasid” the gemara sometimes refers to, which chasidus did he belong to?
What about the bird mentioned in the torah, “chasidah”.Is life about feelings?
I have had plenty of people tell me they feel alive and have had “religious” experiences at non -jewish concerts
I’m not connecting chassidus with goyish music
I’m questioning the premise of the questionAssurnet, there is nothing wrong with dancing – at the proper time (and not in the middle of the street while the loudspeakers on the van are blaring at millions of decibels). However, that is not the main part of Judaism. There is a joke that Hashem called Matan Torah for 8 AM. The Mitnaggdim came at 8, received the Torah, learned a seder and then danced. The Chassidim then arrived and thought that that is the Torah (BTW, several times I went to a certain shtieblach to daven Mincha Gedola at the earliest time and found a mninyan davening Shacharit). In fact, the Baal HaTanya saved Chassidut when he stopped the populism and told people to buckle down and learn.
Apushatayid, learn Messilat Yesharim. A chassid goes way above and beyond – after first achieving zehirut (intellectual examination) zerizut (doing positive mitzvot) and nekiut (not being over on lavim) and perishut (going somewhat above and beyond). However, one must learn at a high intelelectual level to even think about this. I heard that
אין עם הארץ חסיד means that he is not allowed to be a chassid as he will be a chassid shoteh.Joseph, Wikipedia puts the Satmar population as of 2015 as being between 50,000 and 120,000. What are your sources.?
lesschumras: I’ll fix Wikipedia to the above current info. Give me a few minutes.
The easiest way to get a real good idea of Satmar Popular is to take the Cenus Population of Kiryat Joel which is estiamted to be 22,000 and Williamsburg Brooklyn
Williamsburg has a Population of 120,000 and 50% of them are White. if we count all of them as Satmar (Which of course they are not), we get another 60,000 people for a total of 82,000
There are scattering Satmar communities in Borough park and elsewhere and some in Israel.. But they do not equal the 82,000 in Williamsburg and Kiryat Joel
I put the Satmar population as of 2017 somewhere between 1 and 7.5 billion.
LB:
Just to clarify, Chassidim did not invent the concept of serving Hashem with simcha. David HaMelech writes in Tehilim: Ivdu es Hashem bi’simcha. But he also writes Ivdu es Hashem bi’yirah. As with everything else in life, we must maintain the proper balance of simcha and yira in our avodas Hashem. Even a hard-core litvak will tell you that.(Btw, both Chabad and Satmar are normally referred to as being Chassidism, even if they have very different outlooks on the world.)
Satmar is large in Boro Park. And they’ve outgrown Williamsburg and have moved into the surrounding neighborhoods (Bed-Stuy, Crown Heights, etc.) and they’re large in Lakewood too, as well as in Canada, Belgium, the UK and Israel.
Chassidus Chabad today is the logical extension of itself from generation to generation dating to the Admor Hazaken.
Today as in yesteryear Chassidus Chabad is focused on personal avoda through the refinement of character via the subjugation of the emotive attributes to the intellectual attributes. This is accomplished through intellectual meditation on how Divinity (elokus) permeates all the worlds, and how all the worlds are as naught before the Holy One Blessed Be He.
Simple answer: Too many Jews are amei haaretz.
Ein Am Haaretz Chosid!AvramMD,
LOLAnd,
Are you perhaps familiar with the term, “koshi ha’shibud”?Joy in avodas Hashem is not exclusive to Chasidim. Litvish Jews also grow up loving and enjoying the Torah. Ever see Simchas Torah in a litvish yeshiva? Nor do Chabad have an exclusive on chasidus. My husband and I once went thru the alphabet and we came up with several names of chasidus sects for practically every letter (ok, maybe not Q or X).
This is probably very simplistic, but I would say the differences are that chasidus has more of an outward show of that joy, an emphasis on avoda and kedusha, and the centrality of a Rebbe to channel/develop a person’s avoda. Litvish traditionally placed more of an emphasis on Torah learning, the Rav is a teacher of Torah and a guide in Halacha and Hashkafa, but is not needed for an individual to get close to Hashem.
Most Litvish people I know would never consider becoming Chasidish, and vice-versa. Of course, FFB don’t usually choose their derech, but follow more or less what their families/communities do. So while certain chasidish sects are very appealing to Baalei teshuva, you don’t see significant movement towards them from other frum streams.
That said, the line have blurred significantly in the past few generations. Many chasidus streams are very into Torah learning, and many Litvish people treat their Rabbanim the way chasidim treat their Rebbes. I would dare to say that both movements have gained from the others.My answer to the title question is that not Chassidim are Chassidic either. What was once only a reference to a particular approach to Avodas Hashem has become a sociological label. It has become enormously difficult to know anything about someone’s Avodas Hashem by which European city is the brand name for the Rebbe they follow or the kehila where they associate. For that matter, Litvishe are not Litvish either. These are labels applied for convenience, and are more related to someone’s affiliations and attire. And even these have proven to be rather fluid and dynamic.
Someone I know compares different Chassidic groups to competitive sports teams, where the focus on the real rules of the game is very secondary to the competition and pursuit of victory. Just a few generations ago, there was a preoccupation with being better at fulfilling the Ratzon Hashem, with nuances of simcha, certain minhagim, recognizing the kedushas haneshomoh of the “simple” Yid, and the self effacing chesed to those in need. Sadly, many of these are no longer the hallmarks of chassidus. The focus has strayed deep into the the chitzoniyus, the glitter and pomp, and the photographic publicity of the “grandeur” of the particular groups/leaders. The Litvishe velt is not far behind on this either.
I have often wondered whether someone could create an app that would identify true Yir’as Shomayim, or a sensor that would display real kedusha. We are being physically blinded from these with the flashing lights of chitzoniyus, and deluded into believing that it is the color of the beketshe or the number of spectators that determines one’s true spiritual value. It is my firm belief that the Baal Shem Tov did not subscribe to this secular focus.
i def understood the op meant “chassidic” not “chossid” like in chazal but wtvr. Cud be (but not sure) there was always an undersatnding by litvish as well to avoid depression and have a joy in life and yiddishkeit. Regardless, nowadays theres for sure an awareness in most litvish yeshivas about it. Modern psychology also caught on to the importance of happiness.
also,
גהנום
Different strokes for differnt neshamos.I know a few peopl that discovered chassidus (each one their flavor) after they finished bais medrash and are thrilled. BH. I’l try to explain what i feel to be the answer of op later imyh.
Light bright: Listen to your own preaching. Did you first ask how come no one else knows how to do Avodas Hashem properly? And then followed with please remember that this is a lashon hara free zone in your response.
I know this will never get approved. But this is classic Chabad debate tactics.
Anything in Chassidus that is emesdik is from the Torah. That means that it was part of the Torah before Chassidus existed and will continue to be part of the Torah even if Chassidus does become extinct (not that I think that is happening; I am just making a point).
What Chassidus accomplished was to bring out certain aspects of the Torah that may have become somewhat forgotten or neglected by the rest of the Jewish people. It is possible that those aspects are still easier to find in Chassidic writings/shiurim/communities. But if they are emesdik, they are in the same Torah that we all learn and theoretically, one should be able to find them without Chassidus.
As I think others may have mentioned (I only skimmed the thread), the lines are somewhat blurred today, so most of the important teachings of Chassidus have been imbibed by the rest of the Torah world. But it may still be easier to find some of those concepts in the Chassidish world.
It is also important to remember that there it is possible to be a shtark Litvak yet learn Chassidus and absorb some of its teachings.
LB –
“Background: Recently I talked to my Rebbetzin about how sometimes when I listen to shiurim, I feel terribly guilty afterward. Even if I do more mitzvot after, I still feel horrible and like I don’t do enough or learn enough and am not enough.”Now here is the key question – why and in what way do you feel “guilty”? Is it something that YOU are at fault and is brought out through (I assume) Mussar kind of shiur? Or, is it something in the sense of a shiur reflecting the negative part of the human.
Better know in the terms of Hashkfah “Shiflos haAdom” vs Gadlut HaBorah” which has been an ongoing debate.
In any case, there were Mussar Movements like Novardak that reflected the above i.e. of “perfecting” the faulty human nature to its best possible, via working on eliminating all faulty human acts “shiflos haAdom”, and is a whole topic on its own. But as far as I am aware, that method is no longer followed even by the most extreme Yeshivish mussarniks and, was never used for women.
Furthermore, I don’t think anyone will disagree that being ‘depressed’ about Mitzvos etc is NOT the way.LB: Your question is not new; basically goes to the core of what the debate was between the misnagdim and the chasidim 200 – 300 years ago and still true to this very day.
Your question “how do frum Jews grow up loving and enjoying Torah without Chassidus?” Because we learned from our Roshei Yeshivos, Menahalim, and Rabbeim; we learned from the gedolim of yesteryear and the gedolim of today. Read the biographies of R’ Ahron Kotler, R Moshe Feinstein, R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky, R’ Elchonon Wasserman, R’ Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, The Chazon Ish, R’ Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg, (and the list goes on). I don’t think any of them would be considered “chasidim” as we define the term today; yet each one of then had a simchas hachayim that cannot be easily described.
LB, with all due respect, enough already. I understand that you were mekarev by Chabad, that you are enamored by Chabad but it’s not for everybody. By claiming not to understand why others don’t see things as clearly as you do and why they don’t become chabad you are in effect dismissing their hashkafas
Wolf, wondering how non-Chassidic frum Jews are all happy and loving Torah and mitzvot without Chassidic teachings the outlook.
Is the idea of someone being happy and loving Torah and mitzvos in a non-chassidic framework so foreign and alien to you that it is completely inconceivable?
The Wolf
Some distinctions need to be made:
Chassidus, the movement created by the Baal Shem Tov
Chassidus, the set of teachings, which includes teachings found elsewhere
Chassidus, the way of life of certain Jews today
Chassidus, the trait of Chazal’s “Chassid” (as explained in Mesillas Yesharim)or a sensor that would display real kedusha
Aura photography, according to a book I have lying around. : )
Lightbright, to answer your original question, you’re right that same kinds of themes that are emphasized in chassidus (such as joy, faith, love of Hashem, etc.) are also found in the non-Chassidic Orthodox world today as well. Some versions of Litvish mussar are quite similar to chassidus in their overall emphases. Often MO or Litvish rabbis study chassidus or quote chassidic teachings in their drashas. And many chassidic bachurim go to Litvish yeshivas. So there’s a lot of mixture nowadays. Most people stay in the group their parents are in and are perfectly fine with that (though perhaps some of them feel uninspired and would benefit by venturing out a bit to other paths within Orthodoxy.)
Even 100-200 years ago the stereotype of the Warm Chassid and Cold Litvak weren’t exactly true (there are very spiritual seforim by Litvaks, like R’ Alexander Zuskind hundreds of years ago for example), but now it’s probably less true.
I personally gravitate toward chassidus as you do (especially Breslov), but I also appreciate the teachings of many non-chassidic rabbanim like Rav Hirsch and the Litvish rabbis I know. Everyone is different, and it is often said that people’s neshamas naturally gravitate toward certain approaches that appeal to them and provide them what they need at that time to grow closer to Hashem. Hope that makes sense!
“By claiming not to understand why others don’t see things as clearly as you do and why they don’t become chabad you are in effect dismissing their hashkafas”
classic missionarry tactic.
LU, you are correct but so is everything said by the Mitnagdim. So are rationalism and mysticism. The latter are a big difference between Litvaks and Chassidim. The former will not pasken according to all kinds of kabbalistic ideas and the latter do. Even the idea of daat Torah is different. A Litvak (I was told this by a Litvak rabbi) beleives that learning Gemara at a very high level teches a person to analyze all problems whereas a Chassid believes that his rebbe/mekubal has a direct pipeline to what they are saying in Heaven.
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