How are you shomer your einayim

I was responding to what I thought you were saying that there’s no m’kor to asser women gazing at men for pleasure. There is.

Fair enough. I agree with you there is such a Mekor, it is the Pasuk of “Lo Sasuru”.

I was responding to Sparkly and LuL regarding their concern of looking at non-Tznius women. To quote LuL, who is obviously discussing women:

1. I try to live in communities where people dress tzniusly.

2. When I lived in the US, I tried to avoid goyish stores/businesses.

3.In the US, I almost always used the ATM at the bank instead of going inside and dealing with the tellers, since the tellers in my bank didn’t dress tzniusly. I actually found out recently that there is another bank which requires its workers to wear uniforms, so there are Frum people who switched to that bank, I think.

4. When I lived on my own, I deliberately didn’t get Internet at home, even though I needed to use it on a regular basis. I went to Cubicles (a Frum Internet place) instead.

5. I tried to avoid the Public Library, but if I had to use it, I trained myself to turn my eyes so that I could avoid looking at the magazine racks when I walked in.

6. When I’m out, if I see there are people around who aren’t dressed or acting tzniusly, I try to avoid looking at them, and I try to avoid walking behind or near them (I cross the street or walk ahead of them).

7. Now when I’m living in someone’s house who has a lot of inappropriate books and photographs around. I try to avoid reading or looking at any of them.

8. I spend time in the CR rather than going to other sites that could be more problematic :).

9. When I was in the US, I went out of my way to avoid goyish transportation.

10. I got adblocker for the computer that I use. I still have to find out more about filters, and find out if I can get a filter just for my account (since it’s not my computer).

11. If I am looking something up on online, and something inappropriate comes up, I try to either log off of the site right away or cover up the part that’s a problem.

12. I try to stick to sites that I already know are okay and not to just google things or “surf the web”. Obviously, I still need to work on that, hence #11.

13. When I was teaching reading, I went through all the books and colored in the untznius pictures (I had a lot of fun coloring in black shells, etc. 🙂 )

I’m still trying to find the exact source, but I wanted to clarify what I am talking about. I was talking about the idea of seeing anything that can fall under the category of pritzus/tumah. I think it is pretty clear that this is assur/problematic for men and women (aside from the fact that I was told by a Rav whom I asked that it is) whether it’s an actual halacha or a middah. Different people may categorize pritzus differently according to their levels of sensitivity, so exactly what falls under that category may be subjective, and some people’s sensitivities can sound extreme to others who may be on a different level of sensitivity.

Also, according to the Shulchan Aruch, you are not even supposed to be untznius in the privacy of your home (as in having anything uncovered that is normally covered, meaning even walking around w/o socks if you normally wear socks) so I would think it’s a kal v’chomer to seeing someone else dressed untzniusly (for no purpose). Rav Moshe Feinstein, zatsal says that it’s a midas chassidus. However, it still is something to strive for, each on his/her own level, and it is brought down in the Shulchan Aruch.

If this is hard to relate to, think about it in less extreme terms. I think that everyone would agree that there are things that girls shouldn’t see; some people will have different levels of sensitivity regarding what they think is a problem. I would give examples of what I mean, but if I do, the moderators won’t let this post through (rightly so).

I am not talking about the issurim that men have of not seeing women dressed untzniusly. I am talking about the general concept of staying away from tumah, and making sure that your thoughts are tahor and kadosh. That is something that applies to women as well as men and possibly, more so.

Also, according to the Shulchan Aruch, you are not even supposed to be untznius in the privacy of your home (as in having anything uncovered that is normally covered, meaning even walking around w/o socks if you normally wear socks) so I would think it’s a kal v’chomer to seeing someone else dressed untzniusly (for no purpose). Rav Moshe Feinstein, zatsal says that it’s a midas chassidus. However, it still is something to strive for, each on his/her own level, and it is brought down in the Shulchan Aruch.

SA brings it down for hair and only as a middus Chassidus (Kimchis), not Halacha. That is a din in one’s own body, and has nothing to do with pictures.

I was talking about the idea of seeing anything that can fall under the category of pritzus/tumah

Like a Sheretz. Got it. No pet toads for you 🙂

Different people may categorize pritzus differently according to their levels of sensitivity, so exactly what falls under that category may be subjective, and some people’s sensitivities can sound extreme to others who may be on a different level of sensitivity.

You’ve just admitted that it isn’t Halacha, as Halacha doesn’t change based on “sensitivity”.

Although I will admit, if those types of catalogs make you think thoughts that are not Kaddosh (i.e. Hirrhurim), then YOU should stay away from them. No different than any other “trigger” that causes hirrhurim that one should avoid, whether that trigger is specifically brought down in Halacha or not.

“i dont look at guys”

Sparkly,

B”H

So happy to hear that.

(Although I find it hard to believe)

LuL – I thought you were discussing women. I did not think of that section of Shulchan Aruch (Orech Chaim) which discusses dressing oneself. The Mishna Berurah does say that one should keep covered all that is normally covered outside. Modeh.

That being said, it still has nothing to do with our discussion of pictures.

Tachlis, I asked my Rav for the halachic source, and I will bring it soon. I just want to verify something first.

I await your response with bated breath.

I am kind of surprised that this concept is such a chiddush for you. You never heard of girls not watching movies?? Or at least being careful what movies they watch???

A movie (which also has guys) is different than a catalog (assuming it only has girls), unless that catalog is made for the purpose of causing hirhurim. I’m not Choshed you about that being your question or concern.

Think about it from the opposite perspective for a minute. Is a male not allowed to see another man’s elbows or knees? Hear him sing? Swim in the same swimming pool?

Why would it be any different for women with other women?